Heresy or error?

[Episkopos]

Isn’t that what you - and everyone who promotes a particular doctrine - foist what you have approved on others, be it in error or heresy?

Not at all. I'm not pretending to be anything other than a brother. And you are free to consider what I say or not.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Christians do great harm to their own cause. We have and continue to contribute to our own apostasy. The world sees our divisiveness and hypocrisy.

I know most people can't "follow that" because they've been conditioned to believe heretics and heresies are all bad. They are not!

The word heresy is also translated as sect. We all belong to a sect because they all accuse one another of heresies.

Here's what Vines says and I don't completely agree with it.

Heresy:
denotes
(a) "a choosing, choice" (from haireomai, "to choose"); then, "that which is chosen," and hence, "an opinion," especially a self-willed opinion, which is substituted for submission to the power of truth, and leads to division and the formation of sects, Gal 5:20 (marg., "parties"); such erroneous opinions are frequently the outcome of personal preference or the prospect of advantage; see 2Pe 2:1, where "destructive" (RV) signifies leading to ruin; some assign even this to (b); in the papyri the prevalent meaning is "choice" (Moulton and Milligan, Vocab.);
______________________________________________________
Strong's say's this...

1. act of taking, capture: e.g. storming a city
2. choosing, choice
3. that which is chosen
4. a body of men following their own tenets (sect or party)
   1. of the Sadducees
   2. of the Pharisees
   3. of the Christians
5. dissensions arising from diversity of opinions and aim

And if you look here at the textus Receptus it uses the word "preference"...

https://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/NTpdf/act24.pdf

Accusing one another in the Christian world is destroying it. Here's a prime example of Christians being Christianity's worst enemy.

Six Heretics Who Should Be Banned From Evangelicalism - RELEVANT

I can see choosing or choice for the definition…choose this day who you will serve…How long will you waver between two opinions…

If it’s disagreeable to you to serve the Lord, choose for yourselves who you will serve, the gods of your fathers, the gods of the land you are in, or the Lord…

How long will you hesitate between two opinions? If the Lord is God, follow Him, but if Baal, follow him.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

It's speaking of people and sects outside of and not led by the "Spirit."

Okay…but could there be some who say they are Christians who haven’t received the down payment of the Spirit? I mean, people do say they are something they aren’t sometimes. I don’t really care about it but If your criteria is going to be: it is an indisputable fact that every single person who ever states “I am a Christian” or who “identifies” as a Christian, is led by the Holy Spirit, I think you’ve run into a problem with your criteria for who can’t do harm/be a heretic. Because men have called themselves Christian who burned other people alive on purpose. It has literally happened before. Do you think anyone who burns another person alive is led by the Holy Spirit? I don’t. Yet they stated they were Christians so therefore, because they made that statement, they can’t do harm / be heretics?

 

[David H.]

Here's the heart of the issue. My original objection here was in opposition to the comment where David H said HERETICS WERE SPECIFICALLY implied here which anyone should see they are NOT!

Here's his comment...

They are not Christians, They are tares (False converts) among the wheat (Christians). The Tares are amongst us, and it is not our job to uproot them, they are there for those who are approved to manifest themselves.

And I think Christians need to get this through their head. I keep saying - heresy is simply a choice or opinion. It seems Christians enjoy badmouthing their own. The text in NO WAY infers HERETICS! Most 'heresies' are what caused the reformers to go through another reformation. I keep saying - Christians can't agree on anything - and then go out of their way to badmouth their own by saying a certain "class" of "fake Christians' is there are very few damnable ones.

Heresy is not simply a choice or an opinion as you say, You are relying on the definition of Heresy to make your opinion. Paul said Christianity was a heresy from His perspective of persecuting them. The actual word heretic in Paul's writings refers to one who follows a schismatic, factious false doctrine.

G141 - hairetikos - Strong's Greek Lexicon (kjv)

G141 - αἱρετικός hairetikós, hahee-ret-ee-kos'; from the same as ; a schismatic:—heretic (the Greek word itself).

www.blueletterbible.org

A doctrine is false if and when it causes division... the reformation has been full of division and false doctrines, because they are following the teachings of men, hence the denominations are named after those men or their pet doctrines (Calvinism, Lutheranism, Methodism, Baptist, etc., etc.) If You really want to know my views on who is a heretic and who is not You can read my post on the mystery of Iniquity here.... its quite long but you might learn something.... how the tares infest the churches and bring https://www.christianityboard.com/threads/the-mystery-of-iniquity.43050/in their false doctrines and maintain them.


But I also distinguish between heresy, which is a deliberate attempt to bring in false doctrines and cause schisms, and human error which causes schisms. I see Luther's error as the latter, and was reinforced by Calvin.... that being in reacting to the false doctrine of the veneration of the saints they threw out the distinction between the faithful and the saints all together, calling all who are faithful saints, thus equating righteousness and holiness..... So passages which taught holiness and were directed to the saints all of a sudden were applied to the salvation of the faithful (Election particularly) which in turn led to the Arminian reaction of Salvation being to whomsoever will Ignoring the meaning of Election. When read rightly, and the distinction is made between the faithful and the saints the divisions caused by this divide and others (Conditional security vs. Eternal security, Lawlessness vs legalism etc.) Which caused most divisions are all of a sudden non-existent as both are true but misapplied to all believers. So what I am saying is meant to unify and not divide, but is hard to receive by most indoctrinated individuals in the denominational mindset. I do not call Calvinist's heretics, nor do I call Arminians heretics, nor do I call Baptists or Methodists Heretics, But call them Brothers who follow men still.... they have not matured in their faith to the point of no longer being tossed to and fro and are still following the doctrines of men (Ephesians 4:14) and the big reason for this is the failure to understand the distinction between the faithful and the saints. So in other words This error in the church has directly led to keeping the faithful in a state of infancy and never allowing them to grow into saints and the path of sainthood has been lost to them. Correcting this error will bring unity to the church, but too many of the leaders of these denominations do not want this to happen because it is easier to keep the children suckling on their milk instead of walking the path on their own.... therein lies the problem.

What I have found is there are Christians in all the denominations, and then there are tares. Most of those tares are in the leadership of the churches... they like the best seats in the house and gravitate there. It is there that they can introduce their false Nicolaitan doctrines that keep the faithful suckling on milk instead of reaching maturity. Some are obvious Tares and have been called out as Heretics such as the Jehovah's Witnesses, Catholics and Mormons who are beholden to their nicolaitan hierarchies. Others are more caused by the institutionalization of the teachings of men in their denomination which indoctrinates them and causes a fear to come over them if they question these pet doctrines.

But God knew all this would occur, and hence he foretold and prophesied of the church ages. One candle being snuffed out by the next, and then eventually the Unity of the Spirit coming in the end of the age. That is why the saints are so prolific in the Book of Revelation. (Read Also Malachi 3:16-18). When all the seven Spirits of God come together in the church of the saints.

What you lack is vision. It is probably because you are involved in a heretical teaching yourself and by what you wrote in the "Jehovah is either God or is not" post here, I see it as being that you are involved in a heretical sect.... perhaps JW, or the like??? Now if you would admit this then all here can see this, But I will tell you right now you cannot write down the statement that "Jesus is the LORD" in agreement with me.... and thereby fail the test of the Spirit in you? So can you say Jesus is the LORD or not? Because this is the thing the Holy Spirit shows to every true Christian when they are saved.... the anointing of the Spirit that all true believers share in common.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

I have to leave forum for awhile. Lights out for a bit. I’ll see you guys when I return.
Love talking with you guys.
Bear with one another.

 

[amigo de christo]

Here’s what I’ve been pondering today. I do see that some who cant hear do not hear because of fear. If what was being said were true, or had any truth, to them, it would mean uncertainty rather than certainty and that is intolerable because they think it would mean eternal torture. So they remain in error because of fear.

But the puzzling thing is, seeing and understanding the distinction between righteousness and holiness and that God accepts and makes a place for both groups would actually get rid of the fear and cause them to trust God MORE.

So it’s like…a few very bad doctrines combine and interlock to create a…very great stronghold that keeps them chained and unable to hear.

But is it also fear that takes someone from error into doing great harm/heresy? I don’t think so…did Saul/Paul kill Christians because he was scared? Did any persecutions that have happened occur because the men who did the murdering were in panicky fear?
So what takes someone from error into furious anger and heresy? (And then into murder sometimes?)

Both fear and envy can lead one to all out murder against another .
Why do we think the CC went on such a mission to do all to persecute and kill those who warned against her .
FOR SHE DESIRED the POWER and the control . Same with the pharisees and jews
they grew in envy when they say crowds going to JESUS and not to them
Envy can be a cruel monster indeed . And soon we shall see its teeth once again as this one world religoin
grows in power and desires all to sit under it and under it alone . Envy , its a monster .
Fear can do this too . As we see often . The crowds who fear to hear the truth that exposes their sin
Grow daily in hate against those who do warn . They want no reminder of the truth , it brings fear to their hearts
as they cling to the lies . They desire this false peace , this false love that has accepted their sin
and given them hope in salvation in this other love god . They will fight tooth and nail to ensure
the old ways are never brought back again , EVEN IF IT MEANS killing everything and everyone whose
voice reminds them that their ways are wicked . FEAR sure can lead to hate and hate to murder . I am seeing
this rage increase on the streets now and even within churches
as they holler against the few who warn them to repent . ITS RISING UP even as we speak . Fear them not
we must speak truth till the last and final breath .

 

[Wrangler]

Isn’t that what you - and everyone who promotes a particular doctrine - foist what you have approved on others, be it in error or heresy?

Not at all. I'm not pretending to be anything other than a brother. And you are free to consider what I say or not.

You are not doing this 'at all;' foist what you have approved on others, be it in error or heresy?! Given your denial of foisting what you have approved on others - be it in error or heresy - just what is the basis of what you say?

I did not say anything about you pretending anything. Where did that come from?

In your vid and your written posts, your comments of opposing views are laced with negative connotations, e.g., foist. 'Foist what one has approved' is something only others, like me, are guilty of, right? You are not guilty of it. And you assert not being guilty of it at all. Amazing!

I'll tell you what you are guilty of, not answering my questions. Odd because you say

I invite challenge to what I teach

Yet, you don't answer questions asked (unless it is to deny the question). For your convenience, here is a list of unanswered questions (even if not always written in the form of a question):

Just a point of clarification; did you equate heresy with causing division?

I posted this which seems akin to your point. What do you say?

Some time ago I realized many Christians are idolators; they’ve made their doctrines into an IDOL.

Such IDOLATORS create what is not in Scripture, a doctrinal purity test. Such IDOLATRY led to the Inquisitions.

Lacking political power now, such idolators still invoke ‘questions’ but not to learn but to relentlessly attack. Sad.

At the 16:20 mark, you say there are 3 time periods of being saved, including, "I am being saved." I was taught this is an error, confused with sanctification.

Implied question: Are you confusing being saved with being sanctified? How do you differentiate the 2 concepts?

At the 18:00 mark you condemn the proliferation of denominations as 'endless choices' - as if that is a bad thing. I cannot disagree with you more. Paul wrote in 1 COR 9:22 that he became all things to all people so that by all possible means some may be saved. No other religion has such a beautiful flowering to reach as many people as our Holy Spirit. It begs the question, going back to IDOLATRY, is your goal to bring people to Christ (to save people) OR doctrinal purity?

Who are you quoting here? (I could not tell, even when using the search function).

I've asked this several times.

FYI, I agree with this point, your comments are bend on condemning Luther and the Reformers.

Categorizing the Protestant Reformation as "fast food" understanding at the 18:20 mark, a shallow understanding. Such pejorative categorization denies the good of this - as opposed to an alternative being no understanding. And guess what? Knowledge is just another IDOL. We are not saved by knowledge! That is the lesson of Original Sin that seems lost on you, brother.

Implied question: What is your response to advocating for your IDOL of knowledge, when you know knowledge is not how we are saved?

Conversely, given that knowledge is not how we are saved, we do you MAJOR in minor things, like criticizing others teaching a "fast food," shallow understanding of what does not even affect salvation?

Have you considered that you may be technically right in theory, but practically wrong in practice? Have you considered that you may be technically right on what is irrelevant, doctrine, but spiritually wrong in judging others (other clergy even)? Rom 14:1, 13; Jam 4:11-12

However, a minister I have a great deal of respect for, Steve Cioccolanti, warned clergy who criticize his focus, to stay in your lane (focus on what the Holy Spirit calls you to do. Don't criticize what other clergy do in response to what the Holy Spirit calls them to do).

Although you did respond to this point, you seemed to deliberately confuse what Steve Cioccolanti's doctrines may be with his point, which is NOT knowledge of doctrine but ACTION. The point he made that I am leveraging is what clergy, including you, should not DO (criticize other clergy's calling). This is part and parcel of your critcism of Luther and the Reformers.

To be more explicit, I did not even mention Steve Cioccolanti's doctrine. Yet, you supported JUSTIFICATION to criticize it. Really, as a means to side step the point of ACTION that is wrong of clergy, to criticize the ACTIONS of other clergy, acting on the calling of the Spirit.

It's not so much what the many Protestant denomination's doctrines are but their founders ACTING on the call of the Holy Spirit to split off and form a new denomination that seemed in the video to so offend your sensibilities. (1-step forward & 2-steps back) So, I end at the beginning. Going back to IDOLATRY, is your goal to bring people to Christ (to save people) OR doctrinal purity?

 

[Episkopos]

You are not doing this 'at all;' foist what you have approved on others, be it in error or heresy?! Given your denial of foisting what you have approved on others - be it in error or heresy - just what is the basis of what you say?

I did not say anything about you pretending anything. Where did that come from?

In your vid and your written posts, your comments of opposing views are laced with negative connotations, e.g., foist. 'Foist what one has approved' is something only others, like me, are guilty of, right? You are not guilty of it. And you assert not being guilty of it at all. Amazing!

I'll tell you what you are guilty of, not answering my questions. Odd because you say


Yet, you don't answer questions asked (unless it is to deny the question). For your convenience, here is a list of unanswered questions (even if not always written in the form of a question):







Implied question: Are you confusing being saved with being sanctified? How do you differentiate the 2 concepts?




I've asked this several times.


Implied question: What is your response to advocating for your IDOL of knowledge, when you know knowledge is not how we are saved?

Conversely, given that knowledge is not how we are saved, we do you MAJOR in minor things, like criticizing others teaching a "fast food," shallow understanding of what does not even affect salvation?

Have you considered that you may be technically right in theory, but practically wrong in practice? Have you considered that you may be technically right on what is irrelevant, doctrine, but spiritually wrong in judging others (other clergy even)? Rom 14:1, 13; Jam 4:11-12


Although you did respond to this point, you seemed to deliberately confuse what Steve Cioccolanti's doctrines may be with his point, which is NOT knowledge of doctrine but ACTION. The point he made that I am leveraging is what clergy, including you, should not DO (criticize other clergy's calling). This is part and parcel of your critcism of Luther and the Reformers.

To be more explicit, I did not even mention Steve Cioccolanti's doctrine. Yet, you supported JUSTIFICATION to criticize it. Really, as a means to side step the point of ACTION that is wrong of clergy, to criticize the ACTIONS of other clergy, acting on the calling of the Spirit.

It's not so much what the many Protestant denomination's doctrines are but their founders ACTING on the call of the Holy Spirit to split off and form a new denomination that seemed in the video to so offend your sensibilities. (1-step forward & 2-steps back) So, I end at the beginning. Going back to IDOLATRY, is your goal to bring people to Christ (to save people) OR doctrinal purity?

Doctrinal purity helps to save people by not deviating them from the truth, as so many modern doctrines do. Bringing clarity to true doctrines brings light into the darkness. And that is what saves people.

As for answering questions...I answer what I consider to be honest questions...not baiting questions or silly questions. There is a LOT of confusion and disorder on these forums. All it takes to come here is a computer...not necessarily any experience with the risen Lord.

Having freedom to say whatever we want comes with many silly words that have no purpose but to cause strife and more division. When I see that lack of good purpose...I stay away.

 

[Wrangler]

Doctrinal purity helps to save people by not deviating them from the truth, as so many modern doctrines do. Bringing clarity to true doctrines brings light into the darkness. And that is what saves people.

Wrong. WHAT (doctrines) does not save people . It is WHO saves people (God, through Christ). Romans 10:9

The IDOLATRY of knowledge, of your doctrines is plain to see.

As for answering questions...I answer what I consider to be honest questions...not baiting questions or silly questions.

So much for you truly inviting challenge to what you teach. Any real challenge is dismissed as baiting or silly then ignored.

many silly words that have no purpose but to cause strife and more division.

Pot calling kettle black!

Friend, you started a thread here to bash Luther, other Reformers and the many denominations (and doctines you do not share) causing strife and division. But you don't have eyes to see.

Beyond all those personal attacks (comments laced with negative connotations, like catering and foist) the premise of your OP is wrong; Error and heresy are independent concepts. You start with a prideful position of doctrinal supremacy, judging others in violation of Rom 14:1, 13; Jam 4:11-12, couched in defending righteousness. That's not righteous but self-righteous.

BTW, my 'silly' words include many Bible verses.

You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye.
Jesus, Matthew 7:5

 

[Episkopos]

Wrong. WHAT (doctrines) does not save people . It is WHO saves people (God, through Christ). Romans 10:9

The IDOLATRY of knowledge, of your doctrines is plain to see.

Right back at you...

“Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.”1 Tim. 4:16

So much for you truly inviting challenge to what you teach. Any real challenge is dismissed as baiting or silly then ignored.


Pot calling kettle black!

Friend, you started a thread here to bash Luther, other Reformers and the many denominations (and doctines you do not share) causing strife and division. But you don't have eyes to see.

Beyond all those personal attacks (comments laced with negative connotations, like catering and foist) the premise of your OP is wrong; Error and heresy are independent concepts. You start with a prideful position of doctrinal supremacy, judging others in violation of Rom 14:1, 13; Jam 4:11-12, couched in defending righteousness. That's not righteous but self-righteous.

BTW, my 'silly' words include many Bible verses.

You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye.
Jesus, Matthew 7:5

LOL Right back at you. I suggest before posting to read what you are about to post to a mirror. Save yourself a lot of needless shame.

It is precisely the divisions that you take for granted that I am speaking against. The Holy Spirit does not lead people to further divide the Body based on an unbalanced understanding. No, The Spirit of God guides into all truth.

Seeing that you tend to get things exactly backwards I suggest you find a way to negate your own tendencies...look deeper.

 

[Johann]

And the tongue is controlled by whom... if at all?

50 Bible Verses about The Tongue

‹›
Most Relevant Verses
James 3:6
Verse Concepts
And the tongue is a fire, the very world of iniquity; the tongue is set among our members as that which defiles the entire body, and sets on fire the course of our life, and is set on fire by hell.

James 3:8
Verse Concepts
But no one can tame the tongue; it is a restless evil and full of deadly poison.

Proverbs 10:31
Verse Concepts
The mouth of the righteous flows with wisdom,
But the perverted tongue will be cut out.

Proverbs 10:20
Verse Concepts
The tongue of the righteous is as choice silver,
The heart of the wicked is worth little.

James 3:5
Verse Concepts
So also the tongue is a small part of the body, and yet it boasts of great things.See how great a forest is set aflame by such a small fire!

Psalm 140:3
Verse Concepts
They sharpen their tongues as a serpent;
Poison of a viper is under their lips. Selah.

Psalm 139:4
Verse Concepts
Even before there is a word on my tongue,
Behold, O Lord, You know it all.

James 3:2
Verse Concepts
For we all stumble in many ways. If anyone does not stumble in what he says, he is a perfect man, able to bridle the whole body as well.

1 Corinthians 14:2
Verse Concepts
For one who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God; for no one understands, but in his spirit he speaks mysteries.

Proverbs 18:21
Verse Concepts
Death and life are in the power of the tongue,
And those who love it will eat its fruit.

Proverbs 16:1
Verse Concepts
The plans of the heart belong to man,
But the answer of the tongue is from the Lord.

1 Corinthians 14:27
Verse Concepts
If anyone speaks in a tongue, it should be by two or at the most three, and each in turn, and one must interpret;

James 3:9
Verse Concepts
With it we bless our Lord and Father, and with it we curse men, who have been made in the likeness of God;

Isaiah 57:4
Verse Concepts
“Against whom do you jest?
Against whom do you open wide your mouth
And stick out your tongue?
Are you not children of rebellion,
Offspring of deceit,

Psalm 12:4
Verse Concepts
Who have said, “With our tongue we will prevail;
Our lips are our own; who is lord over us?”

1 John 3:18
Verse Concepts
Little children, let us not love with word or with tongue, but in deed and truth.

Job 33:2
Verse Concepts
“Behold now, I open my mouth,
My tongue in my mouth speaks.

Psalm 34:13
Verse Concepts
Keep your tongue from evil
And your lips from speaking deceit.

James 3:4
Verse Concepts
Look at the ships also, though they are so great and are driven by strong winds, are still directed by a very small rudder wherever the inclination of the pilot desires.

Proverbs 13:3
Verse Concepts
The one who guards his mouth preserves his life;
The one who opens wide his lips comes to ruin.

Job 5:21
Verse Concepts
“You will be hidden from the scourge of the tongue,
And you will not be afraid of violence when it comes.

Psalm 120:2
Verse Concepts
Deliver my soul, O Lord, from lying lips,
From a deceitful tongue.

Job 20:12
Verse Concepts
“Though evil is sweet in his mouth
And he hides it under his tongue,

Proverbs 12:18
Verse Concepts
There is one who speaks rashly like the thrusts of a sword,
But the tongue of the wise brings healing.

Psalm 109:2
Verse Concepts
For they have opened the wicked and deceitful mouth against me;
They have spoken against me with a lying tongue.

James 3:3
Verse Concepts
Now if we put the bits into the horses’ mouths so that they will obey us, we direct their entire body as well.

1 Corinthians 14:9
Verse Concepts
So also you, unless you utter by the tongue speech that is clear, how will it be known what is spoken? For you will be speaking into the air.

Psalm 39:1
Verse Concepts
For the choir director, for Jeduthun. A Psalm of David.
I said, “I will guard my ways
That I may not sin with my tongue;
I will guard my mouth as with a muzzle
While the wicked are in my presence.”

1 Corinthians 14:19
Verse Concepts
however, in the church I desire to speak five words with my mind so that I may instruct others also, rather than ten thousand words in a tongue.

Job 34:3
Verse Concepts
“For the ear tests words
As the palate tastes food.

Psalm 31:18
Verse Concepts
Let the lying lips be mute,
Which speak arrogantly against the righteous
With pride and contempt.

Matthew 15:18
Verse Concepts
But the things that proceed out of the mouth come from the heart, and those defile the man.

Psalm 55:9
Verse Concepts
Confuse, O Lord, divide their tongues,
For I have seen violence and strife in the city.

Jeremiah 18:18
Verse Concepts
Then they said, “Come and let us devise plans against Jeremiah. Surely the law is not going to be lost to the priest, nor counsel to the sage, nor the divine word to the prophet! Come on and let us strike at him with our tongue, and let us give no heed to any of his words.”

Proverbs 18:7
Verse Concepts
A fool’s mouth is his ruin,
And his lips are the snare of his soul.

1 Corinthians 14:14
Verse Concepts
For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my mind is unfruitful.

Acts 2:3
Verse Concepts
And there appeared to them tongues as of fire distributing themselves, and they rested on each one of them.

James 3:10
Verse Concepts
from the same mouth come both blessing and cursing. My brethren, these things ought not to be this way.

Proverbs 6:24
Verse Concepts
To keep you from the evil woman,
From the smooth tongue of the adulteress.

Psalm 68:23
Verse Concepts
That your foot may shatter them in blood,
The tongue of your dogs may have its portion from your enemies.”

Proverbs 16:24
Verse Concepts
Pleasant words are a honeycomb,
Sweet to the soul and healing to the bones.

Proverbs 21:23
Verse Concepts
He who guards his mouth and his tongue,
Guards his soul from troubles.

Exodus 4:12
Verse Concepts
Now then go, and I, even I, will be with your mouth, and teach you what you are to say.”

Genesis 11:7
Verse Concepts
Come, let Us go down and there confuse their language, so that they will not understand one another’s speech.”

Proverbs 10:19
Verse Concepts
When there are many words, transgression is unavoidable,
But he who restrains his lips is wise.

1 Corinthians 14:18
Verse Concepts
I thank God, I speak in tongues more than you all;

Isaiah 50:4
Verse Concepts
The Lord God has given Me the tongue of disciples,
That I may know how to sustain the weary one with a word.
He awakens Me morning by morning,
He awakens My ear to listen as a disciple.

Psalm 64:8
Verse Concepts
So they will make him stumble;
Their own tongue is against them;
All who see them will shake the head.

1 Corinthians 14:28
Verse Concepts
but if there is no interpreter, he must keep silent in the church; and let him speak to himself and to God.

1 Corinthians 14:22
Verse Concepts
So then tongues are for a sign, not to those who believe but to unbelievers; but prophecy is for a sign, not to unbelievers but to those who believe.

Source: https://bible.knowing-jesus.com/topics/The-Tongue

You think the tongue is tamed?

 

[Johann]

1 Corinthians 11:17-34
D. Concerning the Lord's Supper (11:17-34)
11:17 The apostle rebukes the Corinthians for the fact that there were divisions among them as they gathered together (vv. 17-19). Note the repetition of the expression “when you come together” or related words (11:17, 18, 20, 33, 34; 1Co_14:23, 1Co_14:26). In 1Co_11:2 Paul had had occasion to praise them for keeping the traditions which he had delivered to them, but there was one matter in which he could not praise them, and that is the matter about which he is to speak. When they gathered together for public meetings, they came together not for the better but for the worse. This is a solemn reminder to us all that it is possible to go away from meetings of the church and to have been harmed rather than benefited.
11:18 The first cause of rebuke was the existence of divisions or schisms. This does not mean that parties had broken away from the church and formed separate fellowships, but rather that there were cliques and factions within the congregation. A schism is a party inside, whereas a sect is a different party outside. Paul could believe these reports of divisions because he knew that the Corinthians were in a carnal state, and he had previous occasion in this Epistle to rebuke them because of their divisions.
F. B. Hole writes:
Paul was prepared to give at least partial credence to the reports of the divisions at Corinth, since he knew that, owing to their carnal state, there were bound to be these opinionated factions in their midst. Here Paul reasons forward from their state to their actions. Knowing them to be carnal and walking as men, he knew that they would certainly fall victims to the inveterate tendency of the human mind to form its strong opinions, and the factions founded in those opinions, ending in the schisms and divisions. He knew, too, that God could overrule their folly and take occasion to make manifest those that were approved of Him, walking according to the Spirit and not as man; and consequently eschewing the whole of this divisive business.
11:19 Paul foresaw that the schisms already begun in Corinth would increase until they became more serious. Although in general this would be detrimental to the church, yet one good thing would come out of it, that is, that those who were truly spiritual and who were approved of God would be recognized among the Corinthians. When Paul says in this verse: “there must also be factions among you,” this does not mean that it is a moral necessity. God is not condoning splits in the church here. Rather, Paul means that because of the carnal conditions of the Corinthians, it was inevitable that factions would result. Divisions are proof that some have failed to discern the mind of the Lord.
From the Believers bible commentary
So "we" see there were a lot of problems in the Corinth ekklesia as well as here.

Luther an extremely "unspiritual man?"
Promulgating sinless perfection is heresy.

There are more than 45,000 denominations globally. Followers of Jesus span the globe. But the global body of more than 2 billion Christians is separated into thousands of denominations. Pentecostal, Presbyterian, Lutheran, Baptist, Apostolic, Methodist — the list goes on, and on, and on....

2Ti 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.
The foundation of God standeth sure (ὁ στερεὸς θεμέλιος τοῦ θεοῦ ἕστηκεν)
Wrong. Στερεὸς sure is attributive, not predicative. Rend. the firm foundation of God standeth. The phrase foundation of God, N.T.o. Θεμέλιος foundation is an adjective, and λίθος stone is to be supplied. It is not to be taken by metonymy for οἰκία house (2Ti_2:20), but must be interpreted consistently with it, and, in a loose way, represents or foreshadows it. So we speak of an endowed institution as a foundation. By “the sure foundation of God” is meant the church, which is “the pillar and stay of the truth” (1Ti_3:15), by means of which the truth of God is to withstand the assaults of error. The church has its being in the contents of “the sound teaching” (1Ti_1:10), which is “according to godliness” (1Ti_6:3), and which is deposited in it. “The mystery of godliness “ is intrusted to it (1Ti_3:16). Its servants possess “the mystery of the faith” (1Ti_3:9). In 1Co_3:11, Christ is represented as “ the chief corner-stone.” In Eph_2:20, the church is built “upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets,” with Christ as the corner-stone, and grows into a “holy temple (ναὸν) in the Lord.” Here, the church itself is the foundation, and the building is conceived as a great dwelling-house. While the conception of the church here does not contradict that of Paul, the difference is apparent between it and the conception in Ephesians, where the church is the seat of the indwelling and energy of the Holy Spirit. Comp. 1Co_3:16,1Co_3:17. Στερεός firm only here, Heb_5:12, Heb_5:14, and 1Pe_5:9 (note). Ἕστηκεν standeth, in contrast with overthrow (2Ti_2:18).
Seal (σφραγῖδα)
Mostly in Revelation. Only here in Pastorals. In Paul, Rom_4:11; 1Co_9:2. Used here rather in the sense of inscription or motto. Comp. Deu_6:9; Deu_11:20; Rev_21:14. There are two inscriptions on the foundation stone, the one guaranteeing the security, the other the purity, of the church. The two go together. The purity of the church is indispensable to its security.
The Lord knoweth them that are his (ἔγνω κύριος τοὺς ὄντας αὐτοῦ)
The first inscription: God knows his own. Comp. Num_16:5; 1Co_13:12. For ἔγνω knoweth, see on Gal_4:9. Them that are his, his ἐκλεκτοὶ chosen; see 2Ti_2:10; Tit_1:1; Rom_8:33; Col_3:12; 1Pe_2:9 : Rev_17:14. Not, however, in any hard, predestinarian sense. Comp. Joh_10:14; Mat_7:23; Luk_13:25, Luk_13:27.
Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity
The second inscription, concerning the purity of the church. For of Christ rend. of the Lord (κυρίου). Ὁνομάζων nameth, only here in Pastorals. It means to give a name to, to style, as Mar_3:14; Luk_6:14; 1Co_5:11 : to pronounce a name as having a special virtue, as in incantation, as Act_19:13 : to utter a name as acknowledging and appropriating what the name involves, as a confession of faith and allegiance. So here. Comp. Rom_15:20; 1Co_5:11; Isa_26:13. For ὄνομα name, see on 2Th_1:12. Ἁποστήτω ἀπὸ ἀδικίας depart from iniquity. For the verb, see on 1Ti_4:1. Mostly in Luke and Acts. Comp. Num_16:26; Isa_52:11. Whatever may be implied in God's election, it does not relieve Christians of the duty of strict attention to their moral character and conduct. Comp. Php_2:12. The gift of grace (Eph_2:8) is exhibited in making one a coworker with God (1Co_3:9). The salvation bestowed by grace is to be “carried out” (Php_2:12) by man with the aid of grace (Rom_6:8-19; 2Co_6:1). What this includes and requires appears in Php_3:10; Php_4:1-7; Eph_4:13-16, Eph_4:22 ff.; Col_2:6, Col_2:7.
Vincent.

Jesus "less" than the Father? Is that what you believe or from heretics?

Human responsibility is obeying all the Imperatives recorded in Scripture with the aid of the Holy Spirit.
Rom_3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

Gal_2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Gal_3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

Rev_14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

Human responsibility.
Php 3:12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.
Php 3:13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,
Php 3:14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.


Php 3:15 Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.

Is this a contradiction?

As many as be perfect (hosoi teleioi). Here the term teleioi means relative perfection, not the absolute perfection so pointedly denied in Php_3:12. Paul here includes himself in the group of spiritual adults (see Heb_5:13).
Heb 5:12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.
Heb 5:13 For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.
Heb 5:14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.


Php 3:16 Nevertheless, whereto we have already attained, let us walk by the same rule, let us mind the same thing.

Are you "in the zone?"

J.

 

[Johann]

1 Corinthians 11:17-34
D. Concerning the Lord's Supper (11:17-34)
11:17 The apostle rebukes the Corinthians for the fact that there were divisions among them as they gathered together (vv. 17-19). Note the repetition of the expression “when you come together” or related words (11:17, 18, 20, 33, 34; 1Co_14:23, 1Co_14:26). In 1Co_11:2 Paul had had occasion to praise them for keeping the traditions which he had delivered to them, but there was one matter in which he could not praise them, and that is the matter about which he is to speak. When they gathered together for public meetings, they came together not for the better but for the worse. This is a solemn reminder to us all that it is possible to go away from meetings of the church and to have been harmed rather than benefited.
11:18 The first cause of rebuke was the existence of divisions or schisms. This does not mean that parties had broken away from the church and formed separate fellowships, but rather that there were cliques and factions within the congregation. A schism is a party inside, whereas a sect is a different party outside. Paul could believe these reports of divisions because he knew that the Corinthians were in a carnal state, and he had previous occasion in this Epistle to rebuke them because of their divisions.
F. B. Hole writes:
Paul was prepared to give at least partial credence to the reports of the divisions at Corinth, since he knew that, owing to their carnal state, there were bound to be these opinionated factions in their midst. Here Paul reasons forward from their state to their actions. Knowing them to be carnal and walking as men, he knew that they would certainly fall victims to the inveterate tendency of the human mind to form its strong opinions, and the factions founded in those opinions, ending in the schisms and divisions. He knew, too, that God could overrule their folly and take occasion to make manifest those that were approved of Him, walking according to the Spirit and not as man; and consequently eschewing the whole of this divisive business.
11:19 Paul foresaw that the schisms already begun in Corinth would increase until they became more serious. Although in general this would be detrimental to the church, yet one good thing would come out of it, that is, that those who were truly spiritual and who were approved of God would be recognized among the Corinthians. When Paul says in this verse: “there must also be factions among you,” this does not mean that it is a moral necessity. God is not condoning splits in the church here. Rather, Paul means that because of the carnal conditions of the Corinthians, it was inevitable that factions would result. Divisions are proof that some have failed to discern the mind of the Lord.
From the Believers bible commentary
So "we" see there were a lot of problems in the Corinth ekklesia as well as here.

Luther an extremely "unspiritual man?"
Promulgating sinless perfection is heresy.

There are more than 45,000 denominations globally. Followers of Jesus span the globe. But the global body of more than 2 billion Christians is separated into thousands of denominations. Pentecostal, Presbyterian, Lutheran, Baptist, Apostolic, Methodist — the list goes on, and on, and on....

2Ti 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.
The foundation of God standeth sure (ὁ στερεὸς θεμέλιος τοῦ θεοῦ ἕστηκεν)
Wrong. Στερεὸς sure is attributive, not predicative. Rend. the firm foundation of God standeth. The phrase foundation of God, N.T.o. Θεμέλιος foundation is an adjective, and λίθος stone is to be supplied. It is not to be taken by metonymy for οἰκία house (2Ti_2:20), but must be interpreted consistently with it, and, in a loose way, represents or foreshadows it. So we speak of an endowed institution as a foundation. By “the sure foundation of God” is meant the church, which is “the pillar and stay of the truth” (1Ti_3:15), by means of which the truth of God is to withstand the assaults of error. The church has its being in the contents of “the sound teaching” (1Ti_1:10), which is “according to godliness” (1Ti_6:3), and which is deposited in it. “The mystery of godliness “ is intrusted to it (1Ti_3:16). Its servants possess “the mystery of the faith” (1Ti_3:9). In 1Co_3:11, Christ is represented as “ the chief corner-stone.” In Eph_2:20, the church is built “upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets,” with Christ as the corner-stone, and grows into a “holy temple (ναὸν) in the Lord.” Here, the church itself is the foundation, and the building is conceived as a great dwelling-house. While the conception of the church here does not contradict that of Paul, the difference is apparent between it and the conception in Ephesians, where the church is the seat of the indwelling and energy of the Holy Spirit. Comp. 1Co_3:16,1Co_3:17. Στερεός firm only here, Heb_5:12, Heb_5:14, and 1Pe_5:9 (note). Ἕστηκεν standeth, in contrast with overthrow (2Ti_2:18).
Seal (σφραγῖδα)
Mostly in Revelation. Only here in Pastorals. In Paul, Rom_4:11; 1Co_9:2. Used here rather in the sense of inscription or motto. Comp. Deu_6:9; Deu_11:20; Rev_21:14. There are two inscriptions on the foundation stone, the one guaranteeing the security, the other the purity, of the church. The two go together. The purity of the church is indispensable to its security.
The Lord knoweth them that are his (ἔγνω κύριος τοὺς ὄντας αὐτοῦ)
The first inscription: God knows his own. Comp. Num_16:5; 1Co_13:12. For ἔγνω knoweth, see on Gal_4:9. Them that are his, his ἐκλεκτοὶ chosen; see 2Ti_2:10; Tit_1:1; Rom_8:33; Col_3:12; 1Pe_2:9 : Rev_17:14. Not, however, in any hard, predestinarian sense. Comp. Joh_10:14; Mat_7:23; Luk_13:25, Luk_13:27.
Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity
The second inscription, concerning the purity of the church. For of Christ rend. of the Lord (κυρίου). Ὁνομάζων nameth, only here in Pastorals. It means to give a name to, to style, as Mar_3:14; Luk_6:14; 1Co_5:11 : to pronounce a name as having a special virtue, as in incantation, as Act_19:13 : to utter a name as acknowledging and appropriating what the name involves, as a confession of faith and allegiance. So here. Comp. Rom_15:20; 1Co_5:11; Isa_26:13. For ὄνομα name, see on 2Th_1:12. Ἁποστήτω ἀπὸ ἀδικίας depart from iniquity. For the verb, see on 1Ti_4:1. Mostly in Luke and Acts. Comp. Num_16:26; Isa_52:11. Whatever may be implied in God's election, it does not relieve Christians of the duty of strict attention to their moral character and conduct. Comp. Php_2:12. The gift of grace (Eph_2:8) is exhibited in making one a coworker with God (1Co_3:9). The salvation bestowed by grace is to be “carried out” (Php_2:12) by man with the aid of grace (Rom_6:8-19; 2Co_6:1). What this includes and requires appears in Php_3:10; Php_4:1-7; Eph_4:13-16, Eph_4:22 ff.; Col_2:6, Col_2:7.
Vincent.

Jesus "less" than the Father? Is that what you believe or from heretics?

Human responsibility is obeying all the Imperatives recorded in Scripture with the aid of the Holy Spirit.
Rom_3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

Gal_2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Gal_3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

Rev_14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

Human responsibility.
Php 3:12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.
Php 3:13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,
Php 3:14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.


Php 3:15 Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.

Is this a contradiction?

As many as be perfect (hosoi teleioi). Here the term teleioi means relative perfection, not the absolute perfection so pointedly denied in Php_3:12. Paul here includes himself in the group of spiritual adults (see Heb_5:13).
Heb 5:12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.
Heb 5:13 For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.
Heb 5:14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.


Php 3:16 Nevertheless, whereto we have already attained, let us walk by the same rule, let us mind the same thing.

Are you "in the zone?"

J.

I have noticed in your podcast you are quoting verses randomly without considering the context.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

You think the tongue is tamed?

We know yours isn’t. It runs roughshod over anyone and everyone when your flesh gets stirred to murderous anger.

Your latest post here is just more in your attempt to build us up in trust and hope and love?
You build us up in trust of our Lord by hollering about how there is never, and never will be, victory over our flesh in this life? And all these latest verses to defend your out of control tongue - never can, or has, any man, through trust in the power/grace of God, been given more grace/power to have victory over his Enemy and gained mastery over his flesh, so Johanns tongue is excused. That about right?

You trample every thread with your feet, muddying whatever good water any man brings for us that the Lord gave him for us all. You tear down and do not build up anything or anyone. Truth.

I know no other way to help you than this. It should have been a brother. but no one ever steps up for you because they don’t want to be torn to ribbons by your tongue. So I will stand up for you. I don’t fear your anger, I sorrow for you.
Turn to Him in trust. Why should you go on in your ceaseless ragings and tantrums when He wants peace for you? Why?

 

[amadeus]

50 Bible Verses about The Tongue

‹›
Most Relevant Verses
James 3:6
Verse Concepts
And the tongue is a fire, the very world of iniquity; the tongue is set among our members as that which defiles the entire body, and sets on fire the course of our life, and is set on fire by hell.

James 3:8
Verse Concepts
But no one can tame the tongue; it is a restless evil and full of deadly poison.

Proverbs 10:31
Verse Concepts
The mouth of the righteous flows with wisdom,
But the perverted tongue will be cut out.

Proverbs 10:20
Verse Concepts
The tongue of the righteous is as choice silver,
The heart of the wicked is worth little.

James 3:5
Verse Concepts
So also the tongue is a small part of the body, and yet it boasts of great things.See how great a forest is set aflame by such a small fire!

Psalm 140:3
Verse Concepts
They sharpen their tongues as a serpent;
Poison of a viper is under their lips. Selah.
You think the tongue is tamed?

Perhaps when I am in the Spirit and following the Spirit, mine is... but is that in every moment 24/7? For me, no, but hopefully those times of not being in the Spirit and following the Spirit are diminishing?

Thank you for your list!

 

[Episkopos]

I have noticed in your podcast you are quoting verses randomly without considering the context.

You noticed that the content is spiritual and has no meaning to those who walk in a religious understanding that has not yet seen a breakthrough into the spiritual kingdom realm. The podcast is about spiritual Christianity...not religious Christianity, or dogmatic Christianity. Hence the confusion.

 

[Johann]

Perhaps when I am in the Spirit and following the Spirit, mine is... but is that in every moment 24/7? For me, no, but hopefully those times of not being in the Spirit and following the Spirit are diminishing?

Thank you for your list!

I have respect for you brother, and I must admit I am NOT in the Spirit 24/7.
Shalom
J.

 

[Johann]

You noticed that the content is spiritual and has no meaning to those who walk in a religious understanding that has not yet seen a breakthrough into the spiritual kingdom realm. The podcast is about spiritual Christianity...not religious Christianity, or dogmatic Christianity. Hence the confusion.

Not only are you promoting sinless perfection but now you are spiritualizing everything, again, eschewing the practical aspect of our walk with Christ.
My wife had a calling of being a teacher and you should pray to find yours.
Again, quote scriptures in context and don't built a case of sinless perfectionist "Christianity" to promulgate your view or viewpoint.

J.

 

[Episkopos]

Not only are you promoting sinless perfection but now you are spiritualizing everything, again, eschewing the practical aspect of our walk with Christ.
My wife had a calling of being a teacher and you should pray to find yours.
Again, quote scriptures in context and don't built a case of sinless perfectionist "Christianity" to promulgate your view or viewpoint.

J.

I can't help that there is no sin in Christ. A walk in Christ is not the same as a carnal walk. NT grace is the [power to walk as Jesus walked. So your confusion comes from a lack of understanding of God's way in Christ.

 

[Johann]

I know no other way to help you than this. It should have been a brother. but no one ever steps up for you because they don’t want to be torn to ribbons by your tongue. So I will stand up for you. I don’t fear your anger, I sorrow for you.
Turn to Him in trust. Why should you go on in your ceaseless ragings and tantrums when He wants peace for you? Why?

Turn your Panav away from me and have a look at yourself.
I am not part of the clichés, reserved for the "holy Joe's"
Uyaqonda mina?
J.