HERESY?

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Marymog

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Actually, it is a breach of the second Commandment to even make an image for use in worship.

Exodus 20:4-6.... New Catholic Bible....
You shall not make idols or any image of things that are in the heavens above or that are upon the earth or that are in the waters under the earth. You shall not bow before them nor shall you serve them. I, the Lord, am your God, a jealous God, who punishes the sins of fathers upon their sons until the third and fourth generations of those who hate me, but I will show my favor for a thousand generations of those who love me and observe my commandments.”

JP is absolutely correct. To even make an image of anything (even a cross) is against God’s law.
Thanks Jane,

So in Exodus 20 God commanded Moses to build the ARK of the Covenant, which would contain the presence of God and was to be venerated as the holiest place in all of Israel. Was that an "image for use in worship" and against Gods law??

What about in Numbers 21:8–9 whe God ordered Moses to make a statue in the form of a bronze serpent and he commanded the children of Israel to look to it in order to be healed. Was that an "image for use in worship" and against Gods law?

There are other examples in Scripture but let's just stick with those two.....Did God break his own commandment? Do you still think JP is "absolutely correct"?

Curious Mary
 
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JohnPaul

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And I never said that you said everyone was wrong. I said that Some read Scripture, interpret it to their own thinking and whoever disagrees with them well then the other person is wrong...not them. Soooooo how do you conflate that into me putting words in your mouth??? o_O YOU are not talked about in that entire sentence....


Curious Mary
Because you quoted what I said and made those remarks. You know what you said and meant don’t play word games.
 

Marymog

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It was going on during covid.
Not here, but some places in the states did do this.
I'm surprised you don't know about it.
I agree that it was silly.
Omg...this is the first I have heard about it also. You are right GG...drive thru communion is silly....
 
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Aunty Jane

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Thanks Jane,

So in Exodus 20 God commanded Moses to build the ARK of the Covenant, which would contain the presence of God and was to be venerated as the holiest place in all of Israel. Was that an "image for use in worship" and against Gods law??

What about in Numbers 21:8–9 whe God ordered Moses to make a statue in the form of a bronze serpent and he commanded the children of Israel to look to it in order to be healed. Was that an "image for use in worship" and against Gods law?

There are other examples in Scripture but let's just stick with those two.....Did God break his own commandment? Do you still think JP is "absolutely correct"?

Curious Mary
Curiosity is good except when it killed the cat.... :D

And yes JP is absolutely correct....

The ark of the Covenant was never seen by anyone except the High Priest on entry to the Most Holy compartment of the tabernacle and later the Temple, but only once a year. It contained the rod of Aaron and the Ten Commandments. But God’s presence was seen above the Ark in the Shekinah light. God’s voice was heard only by Moses in that most holy part the Tabernacle.

When transporting the Ark it had to be covered and carried only by the priests with rods through rings on either side. No one was allowed to to see it or touch it or they would die. So no, God did not break his own law.

The copper serpent was a symbol ordered by God and thus not a contrivance of man. It was held up to save repentant Jews from a scourge that God had sent among his disobedient and ungrateful people.
Interestingly when the later Jews turned it into an idol, God had it destroyed. So again, it was not a breach of his law.

Are you still curious Mary? There is lots to explore....:)
 

Marymog

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Because you quoted what I said and made those remarks. You know what you said and meant don’t play word games.
I sincerely apologize JP. You responded to my post to Gary and that caused me to confuse the conversation. So let me try again:

I asked you: WHO's teachings do you adhere to?
You responded: I adhere to the Bible.
I asked you: How do you KNOW you are adhering to the bible?

You never answered
that question soooooo I guess do to you not answering such a simple question I surmised that you think you are right and everyone else is wrong. I should not have done that. I apologize. I sincerely was not trying to play a word game.

Sooooooo do you think you have properly interpreted scripture and you are adhering to the Truth written in the bible?

Mary
 
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GodsGrace

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Well someone has to right. There has to be sound doctrine based exclusively upon Scripture. So Scripture is the filter and everything has to be examined through it. If it is right it is right. And if it is wrong it is wrong.
Enoch,
don't you think EVERYONE uses scripture for their source!

Those that believe in OSAS use scripture for support.
Calvinists use scripture for support.
Post tribs use scripture for their sourse.

and everything else we discuss.

WHO is to determine WHO is correct???
And WHO is wrong???
 
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GodsGrace

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I find more precise theological terms are often useful:

Orthodox: the traditionally and historically held belief of the church (usually a belief in agreement with the early ecumenical creeds) and in agreement with the teaching of scripture.

Heterodox: a belief different from the historic/traditional position, but not a belief contradicted by scripture.

Heretical: a belief contradictory to the explicit teaching of scripture.

So as a Reformed Baptist, my credobaptist (baptism of only those that believe) beliefs would be “heterodox”, since the traditional/historic view of the church was to allow the baptism of babies (Paedobaptism - baptism as a family covenant), however Credobaptism is not contrary to scripture, only to church tradition.

A church that viewed Jesus as a man created by God and not as God, would be an example of a true Heretical belief since scripture is explicit about the divinity of Christ.

We (people) tend to be to quick with the “heretic” label. For a Protestant (Sola Scriptura), the word of God must explicitly contradict a belief and offer no legitimate support for that position for it to be a true heresy. Scripture tells us to have nothing to do with such people if they will not accept correction. It is a matter of last resort, not a weapon for casual debates.
Sample:
Is calvinism heretical since all other denominations do not agree with it and only the reformed have these teachings?
Calvinists show me from scripture that they are correct and I'm wrong.

I just posted to someone else just before this saying that we ALL believe we're right and the other is wrong.
Easy to say that it's scripture that makes the determination when we all use scripture.

Other than that, I agree with you.
But, of course, I'm always right!!!
:rolleyes:
 
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Marymog

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Curiosity is good except when it killed the cat.... :D

And yes JP is absolutely correct....

The ark of the Covenant was never seen by anyone except the High Priest on entry to the Most Holy compartment of the tabernacle and later the Temple, but only once a year. It contained the rod of Aaron and the Ten Commandments. But God’s presence was seen above the Ark in the Shekinah light. God’s voice was heard only by Moses in that most holy part the Tabernacle.

When transporting the Ark it had to be covered and carried only by the priests with rods through rings on either side. No one was allowed to to see it or touch it or they would die. So no, God did not break his own law.

The copper serpent was a symbol ordered by God and thus not a contrivance of man. It was held up to save repentant Jews from a scourge that God had sent among his disobedient and ungrateful people.
Interestingly when the later Jews turned it into an idol, God had it destroyed. So again, it was not a breach of his law.

Are you still curious Mary? There is lots to explore....:)
Thanks Jane,

You are missing the point on the Ark. It's not about seeing the Ark. Its about how God ordered man to make the Ark. God ordered man to make a graven image when he ordered them to make the Ark. He also ordered men not to make graven images. So, once again, did God break his own law?

The same point goes for the copper serpent. God ordered men to make a graven image. Did he violate his own commandment?

And lets not forget about the two large statues of angels AND the walls of the Temple decorated with carved images of angels, palm trees and flowers. All graven images commanded by God to be made?

You really should consider all viewpoints and learn something. What you are rejecting could be what Jesus is trying to teach you. Open your mind because closing your mind never results in anything good. Once you have opened your mind that you could possibly be wrong about this I will show you where you went wrong in your thinking.


Exploring Mary
 

JohnPaul

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I sincerely apologize JP. You responded to my post to Gary and that caused me to confuse the conversation. So let me try again:

I asked you: WHO's teachings do you adhere to?
You responded: I adhere to the Bible.
I asked you: How do you KNOW you are adhering to the bible?

You never answered
that question soooooo I guess do to you not answering such a simple question I surmised that you think you are right and everyone else is wrong. I should not have done that. I apologize. I sincerely was not trying to play a word game.

Sooooooo do you think you have properly interpreted scripture and you are adhering to the Truth written in the bible?

Mary
I understand what I read I interpret nothing but read word by word.
 
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Marymog

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I understand what I read I interpret nothing but read word by word.
Thank you. I appreciate it. I still don't understand how you "adhere to the bible" but never interpret the bible. It's confusing to me but it's also something that I don't need to understand. Thank you for the explanation.
 
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GodsGrace

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An heretical teaching would be a doctrine of demons. Demons twist the words of Jesus and His teachings and say they cannot be true. There are scholars that look at their own lives to judge whether they have lived up to Jesus' teachings, or even can. Because their own lives do not reflect the indwelling Spirit of God, but believe they are saved, they do not believe Jesus words that He takes away our sin. They twist His teaching to be imputed righteousness, and Jesus blood covers the sins we have no power over committing. There is a huge difference between the truth of take away sin, "cleansing of all unrighteousness," and the heretical you are a liar if you say you have no sin (which in the next verse is the context and is before Christ "takes away our sin." For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. That is why we need Christ.)
I think most on this thread believe that a heresy is a belief contrary to orthodoxy, or the belief accepted by the majority of Christianity as to the truth of scripture and the doctrines derived thereof.

Saying that a heresy is a doctrine of demons is very strong and would allow any belief to be accepted because the threshold is so high to go so far as to say that it is demonic.

I'm having a little bit of trouble understanding what you said about scholars...
 

JohnPaul

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Thank you. I appreciate it. I still don't understand how you "adhere to the bible" but never interpret the bible. It's confusing to me but it's also something that I don't need to understand. Thank you for the explanation.
You don’t understand English? I needn’t interpret something I understand, when you interpret something you change it’s true meaning, something Mother Rome and her daughters have done for centuries.

You couldn’t understand if you wanted to, you’ve been indoctrinated and brainwashed, so until you get struck with the light as I did, you won’t understand.
 
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Aunty Jane

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You are missing the point on the Ark. It's not about seeing the Ark. Its about how God ordered man to make the Ark. God ordered man to make a graven image when he ordered them to make the Ark. He also ordered men not to make graven images. So, once again, did God break his own law?
Perhaps you are missing a more important point......maybe I can illustrate it this way....what God authorises is always according to his will....what man authorises by going against the law of God is never in accord with his will.
What is the difference for example, between magic and a miracle?

Making images when God expressly said not to is against his will....pure disobedience to an express command. I think that is irrefutable.
How does anyone know what Mary or Jesus even looked like? No physical description is ever given for either. Would you show a photo of someone else and claim it was a picture of your mother?

It is all about seeing the Ark because that was the very reason why no one saw the finished product except the ones authorised by God to construct it. Two men were given special talents in order to accomplish exactly what God instructed. Why else would God have the Ark covered in transport so that no one could see it. Why else would it be contained in a place where no human, except the one person authorised to view it, was allowed? It was NOT to become an idol. It was not material things that God said should be worshipped or given undue reverence to, like the things contrived by man, or the relics that humans think are of some special significance. Man makes idols out of many things.

The same point goes for the copper serpent. God ordered men to make a graven image. Did he violate his own commandment?
You don’t get that is was the authorisation that made the difference between something sacred to God and something that humans dreamed up because they justified it? Look what happened with the golden calf...and this was straight after the people of Israel had vowed to keep God’s laws. They called that calf “Jehovah” and held their own festival with it at the center of their worship.....but it was a relic from idol worshipping Egyptian religion, and it offended God to a great degree.....He sent Moses down to put a stop to it, and he put those idol worshippers to death.

And lets not forget about the two large statues of angels AND the walls of the Temple decorated with carved images of angels, palm trees and flowers. All graven images commanded by God to be made?
Again all these were made at God’s command, none were the idea of any man. Solomon was given complete instructions from God on how to construct his temple and what to include in it.

Solomon’s own palace was itself highly decorated but none of the trappings of his wealth were used in worship. You do understand the difference between a decoration and something that is used as an idol I hope....

You really should consider all viewpoints and learn something.
I have done that all my life.....and continue to do so. The Bible is a book from God and it is wise to study it thoroughly and to understand it in its entirety....that is when you learn something instead of being programmed from birth to cling to what is not Christ’s teachings. Jesus did not give his parable of the “wheat and the weeds” for nothing. Those “weeds” were planted a long time ago and they were to continue to grow in the world until the reapers removed and destroyed them at the “harvest” time.
I believe that the reapers are all ready to go....

What you are rejecting could be what Jesus is trying to teach you. Open your mind because closing your mind never results in anything good. Once you have opened your mind that you could possibly be wrong about this I will show you where you went wrong in your thinking.
Now I find that quite amusing.....you perhaps should take that advice to heart yourself....and maybe do some more exploring....there is a difference between a reason and an excuse.....God knows the difference but sometimes we do not...we tend to justify doing what God tells us not to because we find it appealing, or because we have been lied to and don’t want to change.

Human nature is what it is.....the devil has exploited it from the beginning....
 
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GodsGrace

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Thanks Jane,

You are missing the point on the Ark. It's not about seeing the Ark. Its about how God ordered man to make the Ark. God ordered man to make a graven image when he ordered them to make the Ark. He also ordered men not to make graven images. So, once again, did God break his own law?

The same point goes for the copper serpent. God ordered men to make a graven image. Did he violate his own commandment?

And lets not forget about the two large statues of angels AND the walls of the Temple decorated with carved images of angels, palm trees and flowers. All graven images commanded by God to be made?

You really should consider all viewpoints and learn something. What you are rejecting could be what Jesus is trying to teach you. Open your mind because closing your mind never results in anything good. Once you have opened your mind that you could possibly be wrong about this I will show you where you went wrong in your thinking.


Exploring Mary
Very good points.

Also, Catholics don't worship statues...at least they're not supposed to.
Ditto for saints.
 

GodsGrace

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The Holy Spirit and the Word of God will always lead to the truth. We are not talking about claims of various kinds but evidence from Scripture.
I wish Enoch.
We'd all believe the same truths.
I also wish the writers had been more specific in their writings, but they were writing for an audience they knew would understand and that was 2,000 years ago in a different part of the world.

So here we are...
 

Marymog

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Perhaps you are missing a more important point......maybe I can illustrate it this way....what God authorises is always according to his will....what man authorises by going against the law of God is never in accord with his will.
What is the difference for example, between magic and a miracle?

Making images when God expressly said not to is against his will....pure disobedience to an express command. I think that is irrefutable.
How does anyone know what Mary or Jesus even looked like? No physical description is ever given for either. Would you show a photo of someone else and claim it was a picture of your mother?
God authorized men to create graven images....that FACT is true. It is in Scripture.

He does not authorize the WORSHIPING of those images. That is the point you are missing and where you are going wrong.
 

Marymog

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It is all about seeing the Ark because that was the very reason why no one saw the finished product except the ones authorised by God to construct it. Two men were given special talents in order to accomplish exactly what God instructed. Why else would God have the Ark covered in transport so that no one could see it. Why else would it be contained in a place where no human, except the one person authorised to view it, was allowed? It was NOT to become an idol. It was not material things that God said should be worshipped or given undue reverence to, like the things contrived by man, or the relics that humans think are of some special significance. Man makes idols out of many things....
Absolutly not true. Gods command to men to make graven images ie the Ark is not about seeing it. He tells us not to worship it (it being a graven image). That is where you are confused. Men had to see it to make it.
 
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