HERESY?

[GodsGrace]

Great questions, but I would have to start with a definition of “the church”, when it was clear from Jesus’ teachings that the devil was going to sow seeds of false Christianity in “the world”, and that his true disciples (the “wheat”) would be “growing” in the same “field” right along with these “weeds” (Matthew 13:24-30; 36-42).....so how were we to tell the difference?

Getting into the details of this parable, we can learn some important aspects in our identification of the “weeds”. The particular “weed” used in Jesus’ illustration was assumed to be “Bearded Darnell” which was a common (and poisonous) pest in the Middle East among farmers, because in the early growing stages, it was very difficult to tell them apart from genuine wheat. In fact some farmers would sabotage a neighbor’s crop with this weed to spite them.

So when the farm workers asked their Master if they should remove the weeds, he said no!...in case they were to uproot the wheat along with the weeds, so they were to “grow together” until the “harvest time” when the reapers would be able to recognise the weeds (which were now very different to the wheat in appearance) and gather them first, and burn them in the fire to destroy them before they could produce more seed. Only then would the farmer gather his wheat into his storehouse.

Great hermeneutics re the wheat and the tares!
I've often heard it said that wheat cannot become tares and V V...
but the point of the parable is that they are difficult to recognize at the beginning but easily recognizable by the end of their growth.
IOW, I understand this to mean that as we grow in our faith, we must be easily recognizable at harvest time (our death).
Haven't read the rest yet, but would you agree?

Now with that in mind, when were these weeds sown? Jesus said that it happened “while men were sleeping”....so this might mean the death of the apostles, who were acting as a restraint even back then when some were trying to introduce false ideas. (2 Thessalonians 2:7)
The other kind of ‘sleeping’ that the Bible speaks of is spiritual sleep, not being awake and prepared for the things Jesus spoke about. (10 virgins)
In any case, it indicated that false Christianity would result, and that is was to take root as soon as the apostles passed away. Nothing would then restrain this tide of apostate thinking, turning “the church” into something Christ said he was never a part of. (Matthew 7:21-23)

"WHILE MEN WERE SLEEPING" I think Jesus meant that the Christians were not alert and let some heresy slip in.
I don't believe it means the death of the Apostles because heresies were already entering the church (the earthly institution) because we know for sure that John was very worried about the gnostics and this is who he was referring to in John when he wrote THEY LEFT US BECAUSE THEY WERE NOT OF US. 1 John 2:19

So, looking into the history of “the church” from the second century onward, what do we see...?
We see a very corrupt system which was responsible for much bloodshed...even torture...all in the name of Christ, who never sanctioned such a thing in the first place. (Matthew 5:43-44)

Jesus would be with the “peacemakers”...”the pure in heart”.....those who did not teach doctrines that he never mentioned....and ”the meek” he said, “would inherit the earth”....not heaven.

So what “the church” became after the death of Christ and his apostles, was foretold, and it should come as no surprise that the power it took on in those early centuries corrupted the daylights out of it.
Jesus said “by their fruits” we would recognise his true disciples, who would be following through on his teachings, being hated and persecuted just as Jesus was by the very ones who claimed to worship the same God as he did. (John 15:18-21)

Agreed.
Except I wouldn't say from the 2nd century onward.
The church began to fall apart when it became embroiled with affairs of the state.
I believe this started with the Council of Nicea in 325AD when Constantinople removed the illegality of practicing Christianity
and then his successor made it the religion of the state in 380AD.

The “heresies” according to the church, were those against what it taught, when they themselves, like the Pharisees before them, were guilty of “teaching the commands of men as doctrines”. (Matthew 15:7-9) The heretics were so busy pointing fingers at those who dared to challenge their doctrines, that they had completely lost the plot and did what the Pharisees before them had done...they murdered those who dared to correct them, but not before torturing a confession out of them for justification. Would Jesus have done that? That is the ‘mother church’ who gave birth to many daughters, all as corrupt as herself because they took the core of her teachings with them...none of which were scriptural.

The Jews to this day, deny Jesus as the Christ, and Christendom to this day has followed in their footsteps.....teaching all manner of falsehoods and even placing God’s son on equal footing with his God and Father.....breaking the first Commandment. (Exodus 20:3)

Heretics will not recognise their heresies because to them, they are truth....and “a man convinced against his will, is of the same opinion still”....The truth that Jesus taught “divides” people as it should. (Matthew 10:34-36) God’s word is the truth that lets us come to really “know” God and his Son. (John 17:3; Hebrews 4:12-13)

So it is a deep question, but one that the Bible answers for those whose minds and hearts are not closed.

I'm afraid you've lost me and I even wonder if you're a mainline Christian...

 

[GodsGrace]

That’s what is wrong with many Churches today, they twist the Bible to their own interpretation therefore corrupting it. It’s why I stopped going to Church, my heart and soul are with God and Jesus Christ.

I'm sorry you stopped going to any church JohnPaul.
No church is perfect...but I think it's good to mingle with other Christians.
However, may tell me they've left the church and I tell them to make sure they don't leave God !
God's blessings to you.

 

[JohnPaul]

I'm sorry you stopped going to any church JohnPaul.
No church is perfect...but I think it's good to mingle with other Christians.
However, may tell me they've left the church and I tell them to make sure they don't leave God !
God's blessings to you.

I’m with God and Christ, from my experiences I’ve chose to stop going to church as they seem to have their own interest and not that of God.

 

[amigo de christo]

That’s what is wrong with many Churches today, they twist the Bible to their own interpretation therefore corrupting it. It’s why I stopped going to Church, my heart and soul are with God and Jesus Christ.

Its real simple my friend . Be encouraged . All we need to do is learn the bible and come together with the ones who
love Christ , love the truth . And look out and ensure that all are following the biblical Christ . The teachings of Christ and of the apostels .
All sound doctrine in that bible is good for our souls . We dont need all those extra teachings like dispensalitionlism
or pre destination , or all this other stuff like osas or etc . ALL WE NEED to DO is learn Christ in the bible for ourselves .
And stick to the orignial sound doctrine in that bible .

 

[amigo de christo]

I'm sorry you stopped going to any church JohnPaul.
No church is perfect...but I think it's good to mingle with other Christians.
However, may tell me they've left the church and I tell them to make sure they don't leave God !
God's blessings to you.

Its not the people in the church that bother me . ITS what is the LEADERS of said flock teaching those sheep .
My problem was never with the people . I expect lambs to not know it all and there will be problems that arise
that need correction amongst the people . BUT IF THE LEADERS are not mature , not well grounded in the bible
not blamless as PAUL said any leader ought to be , but rather they teach falsehoods ,THEN THAT Church is DOOMED .
ITS the leadership i had problems with . Even when i first had began seeking fellowship
By grace i knew what these leaders had long forgotten . WE CANNOT SIT UNDER TAINTED LEADERSHIP .
OR that church and all who do so will be leavened . We must get into our bibles and fast .
IT was the grace of GOD alone that put into my heart to SEEK HIM , to DESIRE HIM . HE PUT HIS LOVE into my heart
and it was a love for HIM above all and a love for the people . NO wonder GOD PUT ME IN THE BIBLE with such a love
for reading it . HE KNEW how to make one wise unto salvation through FAITH IN JESUS . SOUND BIBLE DOCTRINE .
GET IN IT MY DEAR FRIEND . I get so joyed up even reminding about it . Just look at all those big words of joy .
YE shall find HIM when ye shall seek HIM with all your heart . LET NOT SIN harden the heart .
LET us instead TRULY stir one another up by remembering what was first written in bible .

 

[JohnPaul]

Its not the people in the church that bother me . ITS what is the LEADERS of said flock teaching those sheep .
My problem was never with the people . I expect lambs to not know it all and there will be problems that arise
that need correction amongst the people . BUT IF THE LEADERS are not mature , not well grounded in the bible
not blamless as PAUL said any leader ought to be , but rather they teach falsehoods ,THEN THAT Church is DOOMED .
ITS the leadership i had problems with . Even when i first had began seeking fellowship
By grace i knew what these leaders had long forgotten . WE CANNOT SIT UNDER TAINTED LEADERSHIP .
OR that church and all who do so will be leavened . We must get into our bibles and fast .
IT was the grace of GOD alone that put into my heart to SEEK HIM , to DESIRE HIM . HE PUT HIS LOVE into my heart
and it was a love for HIM above all and a love for the people . NO wonder GOD PUT ME IN THE BIBLE with such a love
for reading it . HE KNEW how to make one wise unto salvation through FAITH IN JESUS . SOUND BIBLE DOCTRINE .
GET IN IT MY DEAR FRIEND . I get so joyed up even reminding about it . Just look at all those big words of joy .
YE shall find HIM when ye shall seek HIM with all your heart . LET NOT SIN harden the heart .
LET us instead TRULY stir one another up by remembering what was first written in bible .

This is what I meant the leaders not the people.

 

[amigo de christo]

I’m with God and Christ, from my experiences I’ve chose to stop going to church as they seem to have their own interest and not that of God.

They turned it into a nightmare . Do you realize how simple church is .
They learned the traditions of men , NOT the precepts of GOD .
Church is real simple . its those who gather in HIS NAME , loving every WORD HE EVER taught .
Coming together as children to learn and grow in the grace of GOD .
too many turned it into a business . MEN began to do what paul fought against .
HE even told some ye allow MEN to exalt THEMSELVES .
Oh rest assured paul did rebuke the church . BUT he never exalted himself as LORD over the people .
There should be elders , but the elders must be well grounded in all the holy scriptures
and they as servants to the church , not LORDING over the church .
It would truly be so simple , if we just learned THE BIBLE and not all these other traditions of men .
Most churches teach what men handed down to them , NOT what CHRIST HANDED DOWN TO THE CHURCH .
They teach osas , or they teach calvin , or they teach ROME , or they teach this and that .
NOPE .
ALL we need to learn is the bible for ourselves . HAD they taught that and stuck to that doctrine
we would not be in the mess we are in today .

 

[amigo de christo]

This is what I meant the leaders not the people.

Yeah i had a hunch that is EXACTLY what you meant .

 

[amigo de christo]

This is what I meant the leaders not the people.

exactly my friend

 

[amigo de christo]

Already GOD is gathering lambs . We are coming together , NOT UNDER MEN but under CHRIST .
WE stay in our bibles and by grace we love THEM WORDS . Those lambs will grow in the grace of GOD .
BUT WOE unto those whose love is for the mix , for they will be leavened by men and their traditions and will fall .

 

[GodsGrace]

God spoke through Zechariah about such an issue for the interpretation of His meaning, in His use of our language(s).
He placed it among two other factions that are directly in conflict with it, and are known by Him as being ineffective and undesireable for our undertanding of Him.
We can read of it in KJV- Zechariah 4:6.
[6] Then he answered and spake unto me, saying, This is the word of the LORD unto Zerubbabel, saying, Not by might, nor by power, but by my spirit, saith the LORD of hosts.
1. "Might" is on a personal level, having to do with our internal mental effort.
Through the use of our own fleshly mind, we all can attempt to interpret God's meaning, in his use of our language(s) of words, but it always come down to "what we think", and not how God thinks.
I remind you all of Isaiah 55:8-9, Proverbs 3:5.
Iows, everyone can achieve a human undertanding about God, that is solely derived from their own mind, being unsupported by God's Holy Spirit.

2. "Power" is from the external of ourselves. It most often comes to us through the outward influence of religious and doctrinal persuasion. Such an influence is often an unintentional mix of truth with error, due to the "church fathers" and "biblical scholars" leaning heavily on item number one above. Such a combination of truth mixed with error, ultimately generates discord of understanding between churches and professing christians, causing division.
3. "By my Spirit" is how the Lord communicates to us His meaning, in His use of our words of language(s). As a result, what our words may mean to us is not necessarily what He means from His spiritual perspective.
Jesus helps us this way: John 8[23] And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath [flesh]; I am from above [Spirit]:
ye are of this world;
I am not of this world.
Again, Isaiah 55:8-9.

To some extent I agree totally.

But I think you make it too simple...

"Might" is what was used to understand Jesus...how He was God, the Trinity, the hypostatic union, etc.
Arianism was right on the tail of His death and resurrection and it took this might to come to terms with who Jesus really is.

"Power" I think we call can agree with.
I do, however, disagree with your criticism of the church fathers.
If we can't trust the early church fathers...who can we trust?
They learned from the Apostles.

"By My Spirit"....agreed, but then how come we get so many differing ideas??
I do agree with your premise, however.

 

[Earburner]

What you write is jumbled nonsense.
I'm not wasting any more time with you.

That's because I don't speak "churchianity", but rather "Born Again Christianity".
I do hear you, but you can't hear me.
Understood, the dust off my shoes. Moving on.

 

[GodsGrace]

Heretical according to some other Church, yes.
But who is correct?

I do believe the Early Church Fathers have the correct teachings.

 

[GodsGrace]

Yes. Christianity uses the term more than any other religion, or so I understand the quote. It's likely that other religions like Islam use a different word for false teachings.

I believe the word heresy applies mainly to
Christianity
Judaism
Islam

 

[GodsGrace]

To warn is not to criticize.

But you warn other Christians that believe in Jesus.
The warning had to do with doctrine...as I said, I don't believe doctrine saves us or we'd all be lost due to some incorrect doctrine or other.

 

[GodsGrace]

Incorrect teaching is worse. You don't know who God's Anointed is? This is the meaning of Christ; the meaning of Messiah.
(The VOICE translation, which I tend to use does not use the terms Christ or Messiah but God's Anointed to remind us it is his title and not his last name, like Ben Franklin).

Heresy is what all Protestantism is called - by the Catholic denomination. Steve Ciocalanti, an Australian minister, said we should reserve 'heresy' for a teaching that keeps someone from salvation. I like that idea but the original meaning I gave is in common practice.

Another point about denominational teachings is the segregate an explicit teaching in Scripture from merely a teaching that "can be" interpreted to 'support' a doctrine one already holds, such as soul sleep.

Gotcha on God's Annointed.
I have a feeling that those on these forums know that Christ is Greek and Messiah is Hebrew for the sent One, or God's Annointed, but maybe not.

I have much to do with the CC and have never heard them refer to Protestants as heretics, at least not here where I live.
They believe that we have some truth, but not all the truth.

Steve Ciocalanti can't make up his own meanings to words!
We have enough trouble trying to communicate between ouselves.

Heresy means any teaching that is not in keeping with the accepted doctrines of a religion.
But we also have churches that teach different doctrine...does that make them heretical?

An interesting point from @Wrangler in post no. 79 is that some incorrect doctrine can be seen in some verses in the N.T.
but will not be accepted by all churches...IOW, some incorrect doc trine could be supported by scripture.

 

[GodsGrace]

The purpose of having one body is to support each other of each person's walk with Christ (He only has one truth). It's not to have men declare what God's truth is and then attack anyone who doesn't agree with that view like the Pharisees of old.

I don't know you, but why are you on this forum?
Everyone here has some view or other that may disagree with yours. No big problem.
What if you come across a view that is against biblical teaching?
Do you just walk away from it?

James 5:20

 

[amigo de christo]

But you warn other Christians that believe in Jesus.
The warning had to do with doctrine...as I said, I don't believe doctrine saves us or we'd all be lost due to some incorrect doctrine or other.

GOD led me out of falsehoods .
DID you know that i once too could profess JESUS by mouth , but i was lost and followed SATAN .
May that scare the socks of your feet . I once was as many now are within christendom .LOST .
DOCTRINE DOES MATTER . cause WHEN GOD draws us , HE DRAWS US TO JESUS .
TO JESUS . And sheep hear HIS VOICE not the doctrines of contrary men .
My best guess is over ninety eight or nine percent of christedom itself follows the same god as does any other false religion
SATAN .
DOCTRINE DOES MATTER . SEE , the HOLY SPIRIT IS REAL . AND IF IT IS WITHIN ONE , THEN THEY FOLLOW CHRIST and not men .
THEY WOULD embrace truth and not mixtures .
Most folks , and i mean even within christendom , would HATE THE TRUE JESUS , or paul , or james , or jude or peter , or john .
THEY TOO BUSY loving what popes , or mormons or whoever else has taught them . LIES .

 

[GodsGrace]

@amadeus "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand." (John 10.27-28)

Yes Farouk, this verse is used a lot by those that believe in OSAS.
But look at what it says:
MY SHEEP HEAR My voice. Some stop hearing His voice. Hebrews 10:37-39
THEY FOLLOW Me. What if I stop following Jesus? Am I still a disciple?
I give to THEM eternal life...eternal life begins after our death...we must die first.
NO MAN shall pluck them out of My hand. But they can walk away on their own still being in possession of free will even after salvation.

Hebrews 10:37-39

 

[farouk]

Yes Farouk, this verse is used a lot by those that believe in OSAS.
But look at what it says:
MY SHEEP HEAR My voice. Some stop hearing His voice. Hebrews 10:37-39
THEY FOLLOW Me. What if I stop following Jesus? Am I still a disciple?
I give to THEM eternal life...eternal life begins after our death...we must die first.
NO MAN shall pluck them out of My hand. But they can walk away on their own still being in possession of free will even after salvation.

Hebrews 10:37-39

Assumptions in your comment that are not in the text. We can prolong this - and indeed I would encourage reading of the Word indeed - but we do not seem to agree remotely on this.

The parable of the sower shows that there are those who receive the word with joy, but have no root and fall away: this was never true, saving faith.