HERESY?

[JohnPaul]

From the Watchower....

• What Does the Bible Say About God and Jesus? (‎15 occurrences)
• • What comes through very clearly to an impartial reader is that God alone is the Almighty, the Creator, separate and distinct from anyone else, and that Jesus, even in his prehuman existence, is also separate and distinct, a created being, subordinate to God.
    
    No, for the Bible plainly states that in his prehuman existence, Jesus was a created spirit being, just as angels were spirit beings created by God.
    
    
  • ti pp. 12-16 - Trinity (ti)

Like I said I’m not debating about something that I already know and accept as truth,

Plus your scarecrow avatar is associated with a Halloween decoration an therefore looks demonic to me, so be gone!

 

[JohnPaul]

According to John

1 In the beginning was the Word,+ and the Word was with God,+ and the Word was a god.*+
______________________________________________________________________
According to John
1 In the beginning was the Word,+ and the Word was with God,+ and the Word was a god.*+

The truth will set you free but the JW doctine puts you into darkness.

This is when the ignore button comes in handy, you are now on ignore

 

[Moriah's Song]

Plus your scarecrow avatar is associated with a Halloween decoration an therefore looks demonic to me, so be gone!

AW,,,I think it is adorable....And that is the line of thinking of JW's.

That is nothing but what farmers use to scare off predators in their fields AND YOU KNOW IT !!

 

[Moriah's Song]

The New Covenant was the writing of the Law in our hearts/

That is true Cassy. But there was more to it at the Last Supper. There Jesus was also revealing the ingredients of our "to be communion" as one of the features. The other was the "how and when" of our "to be communion" that was revealed in the "Old Testament" period and of which became "in effect" when Christ arose from dead after "his body and blood" had ended all animal sacrifices and cereal offering forever.

If the leaven were indicative of Him 'foretelling" us, why was it not mentioned by the disciples? I would've thought, since all of them were raisedto equate leaven with sin, Passover wise, for Jesus to say that leaven was his Body, they would've been trippin'.

I can't explain why the Septuagint translators transcribed the English word "bread" as the Greek word "artos/leavened" but it is what it is in scripture and, because I believe the Holy Spirit guided those writers of the NT who spoke Koine Greek at that time in Israel, the Septuagint transcribers would be very, very reluctant to make any changes. The Koine Greek would have been clear to them that there was a difference is what Jesus words and the disciples words later meant to the transcribers.

My "opinion" is that Jesus, because it was his last hours before being crucified, was teaching his disciples what they would be doing after the New Covenant became effective. Those 11 disciples were the very elders of the early "Christian church" during the first century until their deaths. It was them that needed to know what Jesus intended to be for the future in regards to our "communion memorial" today. Had Jesus used the English word "bread as the "OT Hebrew word azumos/unleavened" we would be using unleaved bread because of the NT wording of "azumos." Unleavened bread indicates "no yeast to make it rise whearas "yeast makes the bread of the risen Jesus. Jesus was changing those OT rituals and the NT had to reflect that change. Yet, I also do not believe that it makes any difference as to wheather or not it is Wonder Bread or saltine crackers; Jesus removed the restrictions on the OT food laws and never indicated what one "had" to use at the communion table.

 

[Grailhunter]

AW,,,I think it is adorable....And that is the line of thinking of JW's.

That is nothing but what farmers use to scare off predators in their fields AND YOU KNOW IT !!

Scarecrow is fine.
I did a thread on "Can nice people go to hell?"
What is the difference between the Antichrist and a religion that is anti-Christ? LOL
Pretty much by definition and intent the Jehovah's Witnesses are the enemy of Christianity and Christ.
But they can be nice. My auntie (a JW) was nice. The worse thing she did was cook bacon black. She came from that era.
The history of the Jehovah's Witnesses is humorous. Like the Jews they do everything they can to damn themselves.
Charles "Taze" Russell now that was a piece of work. This is about a man that formed a religion based on deception and cowardice.
Chicken little, the end is coming! The end is coming! They are famous for their failed end times predictions.
I don't want to go in the military....I might get hurt!
God would not be mean enough to send evil to hell! He was not all that good a person so he probably had a legitimate concern.
They are also famous for abuse within their own ranks...families split apart....spouse and child abuse....rape.
They remind me of that old radio series.... "Who knows what evil lurks in the hearts of men?"
Their missionary training was bait and switch...go door to door and present a KJV of the Bible and try to draw people into their group....not telling people the heresy they were preaching. "Oh we are just normal Christians, the Gospel door to door that Christ is not God." How about being honest...."Hello, we say we are Christians, but we do not believe in Christ. What some damnation? We got plenty!"

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Why be so concerned about "outer darkess" when Jesus is our "light."

Jesus spoke to them, saying, "I am the light of the world; he who follows me will not walk in darkness, but will have the light of life."(Jhn 8:12)

And you, child, will be called the prophet of the Most High; for you will go before the Lord to prepare his ways, to give knowledge of salvation to his people in the forgiveness of their sins, through the tender mercy of our God, when the day shall dawn upon us from on high to give light to those who sit in darkness and in the shadow of death, to guide our feet into the way of peace." (Luk 1:76-79)

And this is the judgment, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For every one who does evil hates the light, and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. But he who does what is true comes to the light, that it may be clearly seen that his deeds have been wrought in God. (Jhn 3:19-21)​

But stay away from the JW's. There is where you will see darkness.

Why be concerned? Because I see people who claim they will be “there” and think they will be “there” who judge and condemn unbelievers, have been indoctrinated into unmercifulness, arrogance, ignoring of warnings, because of indoctrination into that hideous misshapen thing, and since I see they won’t have the mercy and quickness of annihilation, and since I think by scripture they will be in outer darkness, I want to know…if there’s any hope for them there and…I just…want to grab some of them if I can in any way do that.

As for JW I don’t know their doctrines (although I think maybe I remember a woman named Ellen, whose book I read was one of them and her book was precious and it was huge, so many pages! Yet there was only one single thing in it I thought wasn’t good and it was very close to the last page) and since all of Christendom is corrupted, ALL of it, I don’t know how to stress that enough, ALL, ALL, ALL, I just don’t, and can’t actually, judge ANYONE as not my brother based on some awful doctrine or I would sit alone, unhelped by any of the wisdom they DO have.
And furthermore, if I know who you’re talking about, and I think I do, a bad tree can’t put out the peaceable fruit of the Spirit so, so consistently. It is impossible.

 

[GodsGrace]

Hi GG,

I wont quible over 20 years but certainly within the era of other apostolic writings.. I believe I linked my source in the original post..

Agreed.
I bring it up because, as you probably know, the Didache was originally thought to range between 90 and 150AD.
This has been narrowed down and most scholars put it at around 90, which, as you stated, is within the Apostolic era.
Or, at least, the tail end of it.

Does this look familiar to you? (I'll link if you dont recognize it )

"And on the day called Sunday, all who live in cities or in the country gather together to one place, and the memoirs of the apostles or the writings of the prophets are read, as long as time permits; then, when the reader has ceased, the president verbally instructs, and exhorts to the imitation of these good things. Then we all rise together and pray, and, as we before said, when our prayer is ended, bread and wine and water are brought, and the president in like manner offers prayers and thanksgivings, according to his ability, and the people assent, saying Amen; and there is a distribution to each, and a participation of that over which thanks have been given, and to those who are absent a portion is sent by the deacons. "

Merry Christmas!

From the Didache?
From the ECFs? And I mean only up to the Council of Nicea.

I come from a site that required that sources be posted...no one does this here, or very few.

I attend Mass.
The problem with your quoted "instructions" is that the Protestant churches also do this.
Do YOU find a difference? (I don't mean the difference between Mass and a Service...I mean the difference in following the above).

 

[Brakelite]

As for JW I don’t know their doctrines (although I think maybe I remember a woman named Ellen,

I suspect that book was from the Seventh Day Adventist, Ellen White.

 

[Grailhunter]

That is true Cassy. But there was more to it at the Last Supper. There Jesus was also revealing the ingredients of our "to be communion" as one of the features. The other was the "how and when" of our "to be communion" that was revealed in the "Old Testament" period and of which became "in effect" when Christ arose from dead after "his body and blood" had ended all animal sacrifices and cereal offering forever.

I can't explain why the Septuagint translators transcribed the English word "bread" as the Greek word "artos/leavened" but it is what it is in scripture and, because I believe the Holy Spirit guided those writers of the NT who spoke Koine Greek at that time in Israel, the Septuagint transcribers would be very, very reluctant to make any changes. The Koine Greek would have been clear to them that there was a difference is what Jesus words and the disciples words later meant to the transcribers.

My "opinion" is that Jesus, because it was his last hours before being crucified, was teaching his disciples what they would be doing after the New Covenant became effective. Those 11 disciples were the very elders of the early "Christian church" during the first century until their deaths. It was them that needed to know what Jesus intended to be for the future in regards to our "communion memorial" today. Had Jesus used the English word "bread as the "OT Hebrew word azumos/unleavened" we would be using unleaved bread because of the NT wording of "azumos." Unleavened bread indicates "no yeast to make it rise whearas "yeast makes the bread of the risen Jesus. Jesus was changing those OT rituals and the NT had to reflect that change. Yet, I also do not believe that it makes any difference as to wheather or not it is Wonder Bread or saltine crackers; Jesus removed the restrictions on the OT food laws and never indicated what one "had" to use at the communion table.

I was trying to follow this conversation but it is not easy.
So the Septuagint only translated the Old Testament. So are we saying that they got the word bread wrong in the Old Testament? This would be a new one on me? And would it have any significance to the Greek language or Greek scriptures if they got the Hebrew wrong? The Koine Greek language did not have a single word for unleavened bread but when the scriptures referenced this they actually wrote the phrase "unleavened bread"

I am assuming that you ladies and gents have already referenced the Strong's Exhaustive Concordance and see there is a blank there for unleavened bread. So I am trying to understand the confusion and the reference to the Septuagint. Are you thinking that the Apostles were using the Septuagint to write the Gospels? Accept for Luke odds are good that it was not the Apostles putting the ink to the Paper, but rather scribes that knew the Greek. It is hard enough to prove who the writers of the Gospels were.....the titles were not part of the texts. In other words titles like "The Gospel According to Matthew" was added later.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

I suspect that book was from the Seventh Day Adventist, Ellen White.

oh yes, that’s right! You even sent me to a site, I remember.
But my point remains.
Seeing some leaven of another fellow but none of your own will never make a man listen to you because men don’t like hypocrites.

 

[Philip James]

Agreed.
I bring it up because, as you probably know, the Didache was originally thought to range between 90 and 150AD.
This has been narrowed down and most scholars put it at around 90, which, as you stated, is within the Apostolic era.
Or, at least, the tail end of it.


From the Didache?
From the ECFs? And I mean only up to the Council of Nicea.

I come from a site that required that sources be posted...no one does this here, or very few.

I attend Mass.
The problem with your quoted "instructions" is that the Protestant churches also do this.
Do YOU find a difference? (I don't mean the difference between Mass and a Service...I mean the difference in following the above).

Merry Christmas GG,

It's from Justin Martyr circa AD 150. His 1st apology..
Saint Justin Martyr: First Apology (Roberts-Donaldson)

IMO, recognizably the Divine Liturgy that has been handed down to us today.
My point being that the celebration of Eucharist has been central to living the Faith since the very beginning. As has been recognition that it is the 'pure offering' that fulfills Malachi 1:11

Pax et Bonum!

 

[Cassandra]

Why be concerned? Because I see people who claim they will be “there” and think they will be “there” who judge and condemn unbelievers, have been indoctrinated into unmercifulness, arrogance, ignoring of warnings, because of indoctrination into that hideous misshapen thing, and since I see they won’t have the mercy and quickness of annihilation, and since I think by scripture they will be in outer darkness, I want to know…if there’s any hope for them there and…I just…want to grab some of them if I can in any way do that.

As for JW I don’t know their doctrines (although I think maybe I remember a woman named Ellen, whose book I read was one of them and her book was precious and it was huge, so many pages! Yet there was only one single thing in it I thought wasn’t good and it was very close to the last page) and since all of Christendom is corrupted, ALL of it, I don’t know how to stress that enough, ALL, ALL, ALL, I just don’t, and can’t actually, judge ANYONE as not my brother based on some awful doctrine or I would sit alone, unhelped by any of the wisdom they DO have.
And furthermore, if I know who you’re talking about, and I think I do, a bad tree can’t put out the peaceable fruit of the Spirit so, so consistently. It is impossible.

Not only this, but you are entitled to question anything. That is the purpose of this forum.

What you question may be someone else's question too. Feel free to ask.
I am so thankful you brought it up. Great Bible study!!!!!

And thank you for your mercy in trying to "grab some of them" as you say. That is a command from our Lord -Go tell.
Sometimes I think God impresses people here on what to post. Other eyes read them. Through what you write, God may be changing a life.

 

[GodsGrace]

Merry Christmas GG,

It's from Justin Martyr circa AD 150. His 1st apology..
Saint Justin Martyr: First Apology (Roberts-Donaldson)

IMO, recognizably the Divine Liturgy that has been handed down to us today.
My point being that the celebration of Eucharist has been central to living the Faith since the very beginning. As has been recognition that it is the 'pure offering' that fulfills Malachi 1:11

Pax et Bonum!

Agreed.

Merry Christmas to you too...
and Pax to you too...

 

[Moriah's Song]

Scarecrow is fine.
I did a thread on "Can nice people go to hell?"
What is the difference between the Antichrist and a religion that is anti-Christ? LOL
Pretty much by definition and intent the Jehovah's Witnesses are the enemy of Christianity and Christ.
But they can be nice. My auntie (a JW) was nice. The worse thing she did was cook bacon black. She came from that era.
The history of the Jehovah's Witnesses is humorous. Like the Jews they do everything they can to damn themselves.
Charles "Taze" Russell now that was a piece of work. This is about a man that formed a religion based on deception and cowardice.
Chicken little, the end is coming! The end is coming! They are famous for their failed end times predictions.
I don't want to go in the military....I might get hurt!
God would not be mean enough to send evil to hell! He was not all that good a person so he probably had a legitimate concern.
They are also famous for abuse within their own ranks...families split apart....spouse and child abuse....rape.
They remind me of that old radio series.... "Who knows what evil lurks in the hearts of men?"
Their missionary training was bait and switch...go door to door and present a KJV of the Bible and try to draw people into their group....not telling people the heresy they were preaching. "Oh we are just normal Christians, the Gospel door to door that Christ is not God." How about being honest...."Hello, we say we are Christians, but we do not believe in Christ. What some damnation? We got plenty!"

LOVE IT! KEEP IT UP

 

[Cassandra]

Merry Christmas GG,

It's from Justin Martyr circa AD 150. His 1st apology..
Saint Justin Martyr: First Apology (Roberts-Donaldson)

IMO, recognizably the Divine Liturgy that has been handed down to us today.
My point being that the celebration of Eucharist has been central to living the Faith since the very beginning. As has been recognition that it is the 'pure offering' that fulfills Malachi 1:11

Pax et Bonum!

Well,why is it Christ's flesh and blood and not a symbol? Jesus was alive when He instituted it, and did not feed the disciples pieces of Himself. So it was a symbol then.

 

[Moriah's Song]

So are we saying that they got the word bread wrong in the Old Testament?

No, of course not. As I understand the background, around the time of Moses and Abraham, they would have been speaking the Hebrew word for both unleavened bread (of Lev 2: 12) and leavened bread (of Lev 13).

Then came the dispersion into Assyria. The Hebrew speaking Jews then picked up the Greek language and by the time they returned to Israel it had become the dominant language in the land (and surrounding territories) of Israel. As far as I know, without checking my details right now goes, the disciples would have, or should have been either speaking Greek or understanding it. And that is why the NT is written in Greek of which the Septuagint was transcribed from. I say this because I assumed most everyone knew that Koine Greek was the language of that period when Jesus was born.

 

[Philip James]

Well,why is it Christ's flesh and blood and not a symbol? Jesus was alive when He instituted it, and did not feed the disciples pieces of Himself. So it was a symbol then.

Hello Cassandra,

pieces of Himself? No, not pieces but His whole self... there is a reason the miracle of the multiplaction of the fishes and loaves is placed right before the Bread of Life discourse in John 6. If Jesus can multiply fish and bread to feed our bellies.. He can certainly multiply Himself to feed our souls...

As for the Eucharist being Jesus' flesh and blood, that too can be shown to be taught by the Church from the very beginning and continuing down throughout its history... Indeed, today there are 3, 2000 year old living witnesses to this Truth with the Church in Rome, the Church in Alexandria and the Church in Constantinople (and all those in union with them).

For a quick overview of this teaching down through history I recommend:

Merry Christmas!

 

[Cassandra]

Loaves and fishes is one thing--giving your blood and flesh before your death is quite another. It is a symbol. I was reading your Justin Martyr link and learned about mysteries of mithras mentioned. Fascinating.
The Bible says Jesus died once, He doesn't need to be sacrificed over and over. Not to mention, He is no longer flesh that He was when He was man.

 

[Philip James]

He is no longer flesh that He was when He was man.

Hello Cassandra,

Jesus is still a man. He has the same body that rose from the dead, and ascended into heaven.. why would you think otherwise?

St. Ignatius was made bishop of the Church in Antioch by apostles, and learned these things from the apostle John. he wrote this around 100 AD:

"They abstain
from eucharist (thanksgiving) and prayer, because they
allow not that the eucharist is the flesh of our
Saviour Jesus Christ, which flesh suffered for our
sins, and which the Father of His goodness raised up. CHAPTER 7
7:1 They therefore that gainsay the good gift of God
perish by their questionings. But it were expedient
for them to have love, that they may also rise again."

St. Ignatius of Antioch to the Smyrnaeans (Lightfoot translation)

As you can see, this is no new teaching, but that of the Church from the very beginning..

Merry Christmas!
Pax et Bonum!

 

[Cassandra]

His earthly body was His body here. His resurrected body is a different one. Do you think, when you are resurrected, that you will feel pain, or get cut and bleed? Nope.