Hidden in plain sight: Why I believe this about the Revelation

[Zao is life]

Why I believe that Jesus' Revelation to His churches is not only meant for all churches across the age, but it's primarily for the churches that will be in existence in the days leading up to His return, and its events are about the last 42 months prior to his return.

It's a long summary of the Revelation, separated into three themes applicable to the end of the age and the time immediately following it, so I will have to extend it over more than one post:
​

THEME: PROMISES TO THE ONE WHO OVERCOMES​

1. "He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes I will give him to eat of the Tree of Life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.". (Rev.2:7)

2. He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. He who overcomes will not be hurt by the second death. (Rev.2:11)

3. He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes I will give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give to him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knows except he who receives it. (Rev.2:17)

4. And he who overcomes and keeps My works to the end, to him I will give power over the nations. And he will rule them with a rod of iron, as the vessels of a potter they will be broken to pieces, even as I received from My Father. And I will give him the Morning Star. He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. (Rev.2:26-29).

5. The one who overcomes, that one will be clothed in white clothing. And I will not blot out his name out of the Book of Life, but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels. He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. (Rev.3:5-6).

6. "Him who overcomes I will make him a pillar in the temple of My God, and he will go out no more. And I will write upon him the name of My God, and the name of the city of My God, New Jerusalem, which comes down out of Heaven from My God, and My new name. He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches." (Rev.3:12-13).

--- As we can see from the above and from the message to the seventh church below, each time He spoke directly to His seven churches at the beginning of His Revelation to the churches, Jesus closed with a promise TO THOSE WHO OVERCOME ---.

(Continued in next post):​

 

[Zao is life]

After the seventh and last time Jesus makes a promise to those who overcome, He is not recorded as talking directly to His churches again until He interjects John's vision of the 6th bowl of wrath to say:

Revelation 16:15
"Behold, I am coming as a thief. Blessed is the one who watches and keeps his garments, lest he walk naked and they see his shame."
​

(THEME: keeping our garments lest we walk naked): ​

The last time He spoke directly to His churches, Jesus said:

Revelation 3
14 And unto the angel of the Assembly of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the head of the creation of God; 15 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.
16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.

17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked: 18 I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.
19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent. 20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me. 21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.
22 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the Assemblies.

(Continued in next post):​

 

[Zao is life]

Now, John writes a great deal about the rise of a beast from the abyss who goes to war against the saints in the days preceding Christ's judgment of the beast and his false prophet, saying things like:

"If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives a mark in his forehead or in his hand, he also will drink of the wine of the anger of God, having been mixed undiluted in the cup of His wrath. And he will be tormented by fire and brimstone before the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever. And they have no rest day or night, those who worship the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name." -– Revelation 14:9-11.

"And all dwelling on the earth will worship it, those whose names have not been written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain, from the foundation of the world." -– Revelation 13:8.

(And if anyone was not found having been written in the Book of Life, he was cast into the Lake of Fire.) -- Revelation 20:15.

Here is the endurance of the saints. Here are the ones who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus. -- Revelation 14:9-12.

(But the fearful, and the unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, will have their part in the Lake burning with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.) -- Revelation 21:8.

"And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshiped his image. These both were cast alive [záō] into the lake of fire burning with brimstone." -– Revelation 19:20. (Záō = “living | alive”).

"And the rest [loipoí] were slain [apokteínō] with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh". -- Revelation 19:21. (apokteínō means to put to death, to kill, to slay, to destroy).

"And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the witness of Jesus and for the Word of God, and who had not worshiped the beast nor his image, nor had received his mark on their foreheads, nor in their hands. And they were alive [záō] and reigned with Christ a thousand years." -– Revelation 20:4.

"But the rest [loipoí] of the dead did not live again [anazáō] until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection of the body [anástasis]. Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. The second death has no authority over these, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and will reign with Him a thousand years." (Revelation 20:5).

---------------------
THEME: "It is Done!"​

Jesus exclaims, "It is Done!" twice in the Revelation:

The first time is when the seventh and final vial of God's wrath is poured out (Revelation 16:15-17). The second time is when He says,

"And He sitting on the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And He said to me, Write, for these words are true and faithful. And He said to me,

--- It is done ---.

I am the Alpha and Omega, the Beginning and the End. To him who thirsts I will give of the fountain of the water of life freely. HE WHO OVERCOMES will inherit all things, and I will be his God, and he will be My son.

But the fearful, and the unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, will have their part in the Lake burning with fire and brimstone, which is the second death." (Revelation 21:5-8)

Conclusions:

1. The two themes: The promises to those who overcome, and "It is done!",

.. are telling us who the Lord is speaking to in terms of which generation this Revelation is ULTIMATELY speaking to.

2. The theme "Blessed is the one who watches and keeps his garments, lest he walk naked and they see his shame." links the lukewarm church to that (above) generation - the churches that will be in existence at the time of the Lord's return. But there will be exceptions expressed by the two (of the seven) churches who were only commended by the Lord for their faithfulness.
​

3. Every event that is recorded in-between the Lord's last direct word to His seven churches and the next time He talks directly to His churches when He exclaims, "Behold, I am coming as a thief. Blessed is the one who watches and keeps his garments, lest he walk naked and they see his shame." (Revelation 16:15) is talking about what will be taking place on this earth during the 42 month reign of the dragon's beast, his false prophet, and their ten kings.

 

[Davidpt]

As we can see from the above and from the message to the seventh church below, each time He spoke directly to His seven churches at the beginning of His Revelation to the churches, Jesus closed with a promise TO THOSE WHO OVERCOME ---.

And IMO why this is relevant is because one is not considered to have fully overcome until they have endured up until the end of their life or up until Christ returns, whichever might come first in their case. It is not reasonable to argue, like some apparently do, that once you are saved this means you have fully overcome, the fact there is such a thing as falling away after one has been saved, though some interpreters flat out deny this, flat out lie.

 

[Davidpt]

Now, John writes a great deal about the rise of a beast from the abyss who goes to war against the saints in the days preceding Christ's judgment of the beast and his false prophet, saying things like:

"If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives a mark in his forehead or in his hand, he also will drink of the wine of the anger of God, having been mixed undiluted in the cup of His wrath. And he will be tormented by fire and brimstone before the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever. And they have no rest day or night, those who worship the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name." -– Revelation 14:9-11.

"And all dwelling on the earth will worship it, those whose names have not been written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain, from the foundation of the world." -– Revelation 13:8.

(And if anyone was not found having been written in the Book of Life, he was cast into the Lake of Fire.) -- Revelation 20:15.

Here is the endurance of the saints. Here are the ones who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus. -- Revelation 14:9-12.

(But the fearful, and the unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, will have their part in the Lake burning with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.) -- Revelation 21:8.

"And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshiped his image. These both were cast alive [záō] into the lake of fire burning with brimstone." -– Revelation 19:20. (Záō = “living | alive”).

"And the rest [loipoí] were slain [apokteínō] with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh". -- Revelation 19:21. (apokteínō means to put to death, to kill, to slay, to destroy).

"And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the witness of Jesus and for the Word of God, and who had not worshiped the beast nor his image, nor had received his mark on their foreheads, nor in their hands. And they were alive [záō] and reigned with Christ a thousand years." -– Revelation 20:4.

"But the rest [loipoí] of the dead did not live again [anazáō] until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection of the body [anástasis]. Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. The second death has no authority over these, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and will reign with Him a thousand years." (Revelation 20:5).

---------------------
THEME: "It is Done!"​

Jesus exclaims, "It is Done!" twice in the Revelation:

The first time is when the seventh and final vial of God's wrath is poured out (Revelation 16:15-17). The second time is when He says,

"And He sitting on the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And He said to me, Write, for these words are true and faithful. And He said to me,

--- It is done ---.

I am the Alpha and Omega, the Beginning and the End. To him who thirsts I will give of the fountain of the water of life freely. HE WHO OVERCOMES will inherit all things, and I will be his God, and he will be My son.

But the fearful, and the unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, will have their part in the Lake burning with fire and brimstone, which is the second death." (Revelation 21:5-8)

Conclusions:

1. The two themes: The promises to those who overcome, and "It is done!",

.. are telling us who the Lord is speaking to in terms of which generation this Revelation is ULTIMATELY speaking to.

2. The theme "Blessed is the one who watches and keeps his garments, lest he walk naked and they see his shame." links the lukewarm church to that (above) generation - the churches that will be in existence at the time of the Lord's return. But there will be exceptions expressed by the two (of the seven) churches who were only commended by the Lord for their faithfulness.
​

3. Every event that is recorded in-between the Lord's last direct word to His seven churches and the next time He talks directly to His churches when He exclaims, "Behold, I am coming as a thief. Blessed is the one who watches and keeps his garments, lest he walk naked and they see his shame." (Revelation 16:15) is talking about what will be taking place on this earth during the 42 month reign of the dragon's beast, his false prophet, and their ten kings.

Since there is a view called Amil, and that Revelation 20 mentions a thousand years, where then is there anything recorded in Revelation prior to that chapter that supports that some of these prophesied events are involving the time of the thousand years? No matter how you look at it, no way can this 42 months in question and this thousand years be describing the same events, the same era of time. The point being, assuming Amils are correct about the thousand years, you would then think something recorded in Revelation prior to ch 20 supports it, thus proves it.

Even in Revelation ch 12, which is involving the same past 2000 years Amils insist satan is bound and in the pit, nothing in that ch supports that, though. Initially satan still has access to heaven in some sense, meaning up until this war in heaven. Well that can't support him being bound in the pit, right? And then after the war in heaven he is hurled to the earth. Even that can't support him being bound in the pit the fact Revelation 12:13-17 doesn't even remotely resemble what Revelation 20:1-3 records.

 

[Zao is life]

And IMO why this is relevant is because one is not considered to have fully overcome until they have endured up until the end of their life or up until Christ returns, whichever might come first in their case. It is not reasonable to argue, like some apparently do, that once you are saved this means you have fully overcome, the fact there is such a thing as falling away after one has been saved, though some interpreters flat out deny this, flat out lie.

Which brings to my mind the reasons why I don't believe in the OSAS notion at all.

1. I don't believe in the OSAS notion because only God has life in Himself and Christ alone among human beings has life in Himself.

He is the Word of God in whom was life (John 1:4), which became flesh; and

2. the eternal life that is given to created human beings is in Christ. It is given to us in Christ - John 5:26; John 14;16; 1 John 5:11-12.

Eternal life [zoe] is given to created human beings (those who will receive it) through what the apostle Paul calls,

"The mystery which has been hidden from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints", which is "Christ in you, the hope of glory." (Colossians 1:27).

"When Christ, who is our life [zoe], shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory." (Colossians 3:4).

And this has a bearing on the immortality of created human beings also, because:

Immortality: To live | be alive [zao] forever (never dying).

* No created human being who does not possess (eternal) life [zoe] in itself can live | be alive [zao] forever, without dying.

* No created human being possesses eternal life in itself. Only Christ possesses eternal life in Himself:

1 Timothy 6:16:
"He (Christ) alone possesses (His own) immortality (in Himself) and lives in unapproachable light, whom no human has ever seen or is able to see. To him be honor and eternal power! Amen."

So IMO it follows from all the above statements in biblical scripture that, as Jesus said,

--- I am the vine, ye are the branches. Abide in me, and I in you, because if a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned, and as the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. --- (John 15:4-6, verses rearranged).

(Eternal life is in Christ, who alone has life [zoe] in Himself. Only God has life [zoe] in Himself: John 1:2 & 4; John 5:26; 1 John 5:11-12).

There was no death before Adam's death. If created human beings who have immortality are incapable of dying, then Adam would not have died - but Adam believed the lie of the devil:

"And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die." (Genesis 3:4).
-- Genesis 3:4.​

In-between the first death of a created human being and the second death, Jesus our Savior-Redeemer died for our sins, and rose again from the dead. The second death = the destruction of death and hades in the lake of fire.

All whose names are not in the book of life will experience the second death. Jesus promised those who overcome that He will not blot out their names from the book of life.

"And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea." (Revelation 20:7-8).

It won't be too difficult to deceive immortal human beings into believing they will not die - the churches already believe it. Eve was the spouse of Adam, the son of God. She is the mother of all living, the prototype of Christ's churches.

"And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die." (Genesis 3:4).
-- Genesis 3:4.​

"If a man abide not in me (Jesus), he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned." (John 15:6).

Anyway, that's just my opinion on OSAS: My opinion is, for CREATED human beings:

So my belief about "OSAS" is: "OSAS" - not now, or ever - because Christ is the Vine, the only one who has life in Himself, and He has said, "If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned".

 

[Zao is life]

Since there is a view called Amil, and that Revelation 20 mentions a thousand years, where then is there anything recorded in Revelation prior to that chapter that supports that some of these prophesied events are involving the time of the thousand years? No matter how you look at it, no way can this 42 months in question and this thousand years be describing the same events, the same era of time. The point being, assuming Amils are correct about the thousand years, you would then think something recorded in Revelation prior to ch 20 supports it, thus proves it.

Even in Revelation ch 12, which is involving the same past 2000 years Amils insist satan is bound and in the pit, nothing in that ch supports that, though. Initially satan still has access to heaven in some sense, meaning up until this war in heaven. Well that can't support him being bound in the pit, right? And then after the war in heaven he is hurled to the earth. Even that can't support him being bound in the pit the fact Revelation 12:13-17 doesn't even remotely resemble what Revelation 20:1-3 records.

I agree. I've said this to you before, but I will say it again here - and I'm really glad you helped me in your other post in another thread - because this below implies silencing:

"And he cast him into the abyss and shut him up and set a seal on him, that he should deceive the nations no more until the thousand years should be fulfilled."

In Genesis chapter 3, we read of how Satan appeared in the Garden of Eden and deceived mankind.
Revelation 12:9 calls Satan "the great dragon" and "the old serpent called Devil, and Satan, who deceives the whole world."
The reason given for Satan being bound in Revelation 20:1-3 is that he should deceive the nations no more until the thousand years have expired.

If we look for statements in the New Testament implying that Satan was bound when Jesus died and rose again, all we will ever find is passages stating the opposite:

* Jesus called Satan "the ruler of this world"; and the New Testament calls him "the prince of the power of the air who works in the sons of disobedience", who we are told will
* give the beast and false prophet his seat, power and great authority (Revelation Chapter 13).
* The saints are warned to be weary of his wiles and to resist him, and to put on the full armor of God because "we do not wrestle against flesh and blood" (John 12:31; 1 Peter 5:8-9; Ephesians 6:11-12; Revelation 2:9-10 & Revelation 2:13; 1 Thessalonians 2:18; James 4:7 ).
* Ephesians 2:2 tells us about Satan's influence over the societies of this world, this Age.

There's no silencing of Satan with regard to his deceiving of the world implied in any of the above, and Revelation Chapters 12-13, as you point out, portrays this current status quo as spanning the entire present Age and culminating in the beast's war against the saints in Revelation Chapter 13 (see Revelation 13:7).

The Amil arguments about this are EXTREMELY weak, IMO. "Binding the strong man" (Mark 3:22-27) would require Satan to be bound so that he was unable to deceive the nations until the millennium was over BEFORE the man who was delivered of demon possession could be delivered - every time someone was delivered from demon-possession.

But "the house" in Jesus' parable represents the demon-possessed man out of whom Jesus had cast out demons (not "the nations"). And it has nothing to do with Satan's deception of the nations.

Their other main argument is equally weak: The destruction of Satan's works (his power over death) will not last only for a thousand years and be "reversed" for a short period at the close of the thousand years (as though Satan's works were merely "bound" for a thousand years).
​

The scriptures need to be twisted and twirled, jiggled and whirled into an Amil interpretation of Revelation 20. And Amils don't even realize that it's exactly what they do in order to get Rev 20 to comply with Amil. Then they say that Premils do what they do.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I agree. I've said this to you before, but I will say it again here - and I'm really glad you helped me in your other post in another thread - because this below implies silencing:

"And he cast him into the abyss and shut him up and set a seal on him, that he should deceive the nations no more until the thousand years should be fulfilled."

In Genesis chapter 3, we read of how Satan appeared in the Garden of Eden and deceived mankind.
Revelation 12:9 calls Satan "the great dragon" and "the old serpent called Devil, and Satan, who deceives the whole world."
The reason given for Satan being bound in Revelation 20:1-3 is that he should deceive the nations no more until the thousand years have expired.

If we look for statements in the New Testament implying that Satan was bound when Jesus died and rose again, all we will ever find is passages stating the opposite:

* Jesus called Satan "the ruler of this world"; and the New Testament calls him "the prince of the power of the air who works in the sons of disobedience", who we are told will
* give the beast and false prophet his seat, power and great authority (Revelation Chapter 13).
* The saints are warned to be weary of his wiles and to resist him, and to put on the full armor of God because "we do not wrestle against flesh and blood" (John 12:31; 1 Peter 5:8-9; Ephesians 6:11-12; Revelation 2:9-10 & Revelation 2:13; 1 Thessalonians 2:18; James 4:7 ).
* Ephesians 2:2 tells us about Satan's influence over the societies of this world, this Age.

There's no silencing of Satan with regard to his deceiving of the world implied in any of the above, and Revelation Chapters 12-13, as you point out, portrays this current status quo as spanning the entire present Age and culminating in the beast's war against the saints in Revelation Chapter 13 (see Revelation 13:7).

The Amil arguments about this are EXTREMELY weak, IMO. "Binding the strong man" (Mark 3:22-27) would require Satan to be bound so that he was unable to deceive the nations until the millennium was over BEFORE the man who was delivered of demon possession could be delivered - every time someone was delivered from demon-possession.

But "the house" in Jesus' parable represents the demon-possessed man out of whom Jesus had cast out demons (not "the nations"). And it has nothing to do with Satan's deception of the nations.

Their other main argument is equally weak: The destruction of Satan's works (his power over death) will not last only for a thousand years and be "reversed" for a short period at the close of the thousand years (as though Satan's works were merely "bound" for a thousand years).
​

The scriptures need to be twisted and twirled, jiggled and whirled into an Amil interpretation of Revelation 20. And Amils don't even realize that it's exactly what they do in order to get Rev 20 to comply with Amil. Then they say that Premils do what they do.

If "the house" only represented the demon possessed man that Jesus cast the demons out of, then what were the strong man's "goods"?

1 John 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

What do you believe are "the works of the devil" that Jesus came to destroy? Do you believe He has failed to do that?

Also, what happened to us not wanting to make things personal anymore? Can we try to do that? I do not believe any of us (you, me, Davidpt, WPM in particular) try to purposely twist scripture, so let's stop accusing each other of that and try to just speak to and about each other respectfully, eh?

 

[Zao is life]

"All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not." -- Matthew 23:3

Besides who Jesus was talking about at the time, ever wonder why Jesus said that to His disciples? Ever wonder what Me meant by that?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

"All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not." -- Matthew 23:3

Besides who Jesus was talking about at the time, ever wonder why Jesus said that to His disciples? Ever wonder what Me meant by that?

Are you talking to anyone in particular? What prompted this?

Anyway, the Pharisees did know the law of Moses very well, so it was okay to follow their teaching about the law. But, they did not always obey the law of Moses themselves. So, Jesus was saying to do what they say since they taught the law of Moses, but to not disobey the law of Moses like the hypocritical Pharisees did.

 

[Zao is life]

If "the house" only represented the demon possessed man that Jesus cast the demons out of, then what were the strong man's "goods"?

1 John 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

What do you believe are "the works of the devil" that Jesus came to destroy? Do you believe He has failed to do that?

You gotta love Archie Bunker when he attempts to negate what his buddy Chuck had said and doesn't realize that in the process he confirms the validity and truthfulness of what Chuck had said.

The Amil arguments about this are EXTREMELY weak, IMO. "Binding the strong man" (Mark 3:22-27) would require Satan to be bound so that he was unable to deceive the nations until the millennium was over BEFORE the man who was delivered of demon possession could be delivered - every time someone was delivered from demon-possession.

But "the house" in Jesus' parable represents the demon-possessed man out of whom Jesus had cast out demons (not "the nations"). And it has nothing to do with Satan's deception of the nations.

Their other main argument is equally weak: The destruction of Satan's works (his power over death) will not last only for a thousand years and be "reversed" for a short period at the close of the thousand years (as though Satan's works were merely "bound" for a thousand years).

The scriptures need to be twisted and twirled, jiggled and whirled into an Amil interpretation of Revelation 20. And Amils don't even realize that it's exactly what they do in order to get Rev 20 to comply with Amil. Then they say that Premils do what they do.​

1. Revelation 20:3 saying Satan will not be able to deceive the nations implies Satan being silenced. The words "the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience" (Ephesians 2:2) implies that Satan has not been silenced.
​

2. Revelation 20:3 does not say Satan was bound for a thousand years and unable to deceive the nations for a thousand years at the time Jesus was casting demons out of someone so that Jesus and his disciples can cast demons out of people, nor that he would be bound for a thousand years so that he could not deceive the nations for a thousand years every time Jesus or His disciples cast demons out of people.

3. Satans works (his power over death) were not destroyed for a thousand years. Nor will they be reversed briefly for Satan's "little season". They were destroyed once and forever. And ever.

Yet in Revelation 20:3 John saw a vision of Satan being bound for a thousand years in order that he should deceive the nations no more.

Indeed, the scriptures need to be twisted and twirled, jiggled and whirled into an Amil interpretation of Revelation 20. And you have just proved me correct when I say Amils don't even realize that it's exactly what they do in order to get Rev 20 to comply with Amil. Then they say that Premils do what they do.​

Also, what happened to us not wanting to make things personal anymore? Can we try to do that? I do not believe any of us (you, me, Davidpt, WPM in particular) try to purposely twist scripture, so let's stop accusing each other of that and try to just speak to and about each other respectfully, eh?

Your false accusation is that I accused each and every Amilennialist of purposefully twisting and twirling, jiggling and whirling scripture into an Amil interpretation of Revelation 20. Amillennialism (the doctrine) requires that the scriptures be twisted and tworled, jiggled and world into compliance with an Amil interpretation.

But you yourself do it quite by accident when you post your arguments in favor of the Amil doctrine regarding Revelation 20 (as you did above again), according to you. I accept that. I have no reason to doubt you.

But you also frequently accuse Premils of refusing to acknowledge scriptural "facts" - which, because I read you falsely accusing me of saying all Amils purposefully do this, it brought the following scripture to mind:

"All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not." -- Matthew 23:3

Besides who Jesus was talking about at the time, ever wonder why Jesus said that to His disciples? Ever wonder what Me meant by that?[​

Are you talking to anyone in particular? What prompted this?

Anyway, the Pharisees did know the law of Moses very well, so it was okay to follow their teaching about the law. But, they did not always obey the law of Moses themselves. So, Jesus was saying to do what they say since they taught the law of Moses, but to not disobey the law of Moses like the hypocritical Pharisees did.

The word hypocritical does not apply only to the Pharisees, and the shoe fits whomsoever tells you not to do something he does himself, or tells you to do something he does not do himself.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

You gotta love Archie Bunker when he attempts to negate what his buddy Chuck had said and doesn't realize that in the process he confirms the validity and truthfulness of what Chuck had said.

As if I'm supposed to have any idea of what that means? I am familiar with that show somewhat, but I don't know who Chuck is.

1. Revelation 20:3 saying Satan will not be able to deceive the nations implies Satan being silenced. The words "the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience" (Ephesians 2:2) implies that Satan has not been silenced.

​

2. Revelation 20:3 does not say Satan was bound for a thousand years and unable to deceive the nations for a thousand years at the time Jesus was casting demons out of someone so that Jesus and his disciples can cast demons out of people, nor that he would be bound for a thousand years so that he could not deceive the nations for a thousand years every time Jesus or His disciples cast demons out of people.

3. Satans works (his power over death) were not destroyed for a thousand years. Nor will they be reversed briefly for Satan's "little season". They were destroyed once and forever. And ever.

Yet in Revelation 20:3 John saw a vision of Satan being bound for a thousand years in order that he should deceive the nations no more.

Indeed, the scriptures need to be twisted and twirled, jiggled and whirled into an Amil interpretation of Revelation 20. And you have just proved me correct when I say Amils don't even realize that it's exactly what they do in order to get Rev 20 to comply with Amil. Then they say that Premils do what they do.​

I have of no idea of what you're talking about here. I don't think you understand Amil at all.

Your false accusation is that I accused each and every Amilennialist of purposefully twisting and twirling, jiggling and whirling scripture into an Amil interpretation of Revelation 20. Amillennialism (the doctrine) requires that the scriptures be twisted and tworled, jiggled and world into compliance with an Amil interpretation.

If you say that about Amillennialism itself, then, by implication, you are saying that about anyone who believes in the doctrine as well. So, it's not a false accusation.

Look. If you're going to insist on making these accusations about Amill then I have no interest in talking to you anymore. I thought we all had come to an understanding that we should just stick to scripture and leave the insults behind. That would include insults against the doctrines we believe in as well.

But you yourself do it quite by accident when you post your arguments in favor of the Amil doctrine regarding Revelation 20 (as you did above again), according to you. I accept that. I have no reason to doubt you.

What does this mean?

But you also frequently accuse Premils of refusing to acknowledge scriptural "facts" - which, because I read you falsely accusing me of saying all Amils purposefully do this, it brought the following scripture to mind:

When have I ever referred to my Amil beliefs as "facts"? Don't mistake a confident opinion with saying my opinion is a fact.

The word hypocritical does not apply only to the Pharisees, and the shoe fits whomsoever tells you not to do something he does himself, or tells you to do something he does not do himself.

Why the lack of grace and mercy from you? I show a desire to stop making things personal and this is the response I get? I don't understand you.

 

[Zao is life]

I show a desire to stop making things personal and this is the response I get? I don't understand you.

So why do you imply that the words "Amils don't even realize" is accusing Amils of purposefully doing it, if not to start an argument?

I don't understand you either.

You think you can open and close your tap of personal insults, false accusations, and sarcasm whenever it suits you, and when you decide to close the tap a while, water will stop flowing back into your dam.

Was your tap open or closed when you accused me of asserting that Amils purposefully do this, when I said that scripture needs to be twisted and twirled, jiggled and whirled in order to get it to comply with an Amil interpretation of Rev 20 and that Amils don't even realize that it's exactly what they do?

Leave your tap of personal insults AND false accusations closed and don't let the water flow for long enough for others to believe you. Then don't open it again.

Back to topic:

"And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the abyss and a great chain in his hand. And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, And cast him into the abyss, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season." -- Revelation 20:1-3

"If our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them." -- 2 Corinthians 4:4.

"Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil." -- Ephesians 6:11

The beast will have ascended from the abyss and Amillennialists will still be saying, "Stop blaming the devil for everything human beings and human governments do, and all the false and apostate doctrines, and confusion in the Lord's churches. He has been bound since the time Christ and His apostles were casting out demons and is unable to deceive anyone."

(Key word: deceive). Revelation 20:1-3 implies hat Satan will be silenced for a thousand years. No false religions, no Christ-rejecting human government, no corrupted gospel and false doctrines in the churches. The kingdoms of this world will have become the kingdoms of Christ and He alone will be reigning to the ages of the ages, and for a thousand years those who overcome will be reigning with Him.​

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

So why do you imply that the words "Amils don't even realize" is accusing Amils of purposefully doing it, if not to start an argument?

I don't understand you either.

You think you can open and close your tap of personal insults, false accusations, and sarcasm whenever it suits you, and when you decide to close the tap a while, water will stop flowing back into your dam.​

Why are you judging me? I sincerely want to stop all of that and just discuss the scriptures respectfully. But, I guess you're not interested in that.

Was your tap open or closed when you accused me of asserting that Amils purposefully do this, when I said that scripture needs to be twisted and twirled, jiggled and whirled in order to get it to comply with an Amil interpretation of Rev 20 and that Amils don't even realize that it's exactly what they do?

Leave your tap of personal insults AND false accusations closed and don't let the water flow for long enough for others to believe you. Then don't open it again.​

As if it's not insulting to accuse us of twisting scripture even if we don't realize it? Give me a break. Why not just say our perspective is mistaken and it results in mistaken interpretations instead of rudely saying we're twisting scripture?

 

[Zao is life]

Why are you judging me? I sincerely want to stop all of that and just discuss the scriptures respectfully. But, I guess you're not interested in that.

I'm not judging you. I'm not your judge, brother. Neither do I want to judge you. I have to be harsh when your false claim about Jesus comparing binding a strong man to invade his house and plunder his goods with His casting out of demons,

is support for a statement in scripture saying that Satan will be unable to deceive the nations for a thousand years. Because you keep bringing it up even though it's been shown to be a TOTAL fallacy over and over.

The same goes for you saying that the destruction of Satan's works (his power over death) is talking about Satan being unable to deceive the nations for a thousand years - because Satan's works were not destroyed for "a thousand years", but forever and ever.

Neither will his works be "un-destroyed" for a little season wen he is released again and made able to deceive the nations for that little season again.

The destruction of Satan's works (his power over death) does not talk about ANY millennium - even if that millennium has been the current status quo since the resurrection of Christ - because his works were destroyed forever and ever.

And I'm glad you have made the above resolution. I'm willing to do the same for as long as I continue to feel comfortable that you're sticking to your resolve.

Why not just say our perspective is mistaken and it results in mistaken interpretations instead of rudely saying we're twisting scripture?

Because you need to re-invent the meaning of certain scriptures (CHANGE THEIR MEANING) - like Jesus comparing binding a strong man before he can invade his house and plunder his goods with Himself casting demons out of a person

- to have it talking about Satan being unable to deceive the nations for a thousand years.

The man was not delivered of demon possession for a thousand years and his demon possession was not turned around for a little season at the close of a thousand years.

Changing the meaning of any part of scripture in order to use those parts of scripture to INVENT scriptural support for the assertion that Satan has been unable to deceive the nations since the resurrection of Christ, is twisting scripture - even if the "millennium" began when Christ rose from the dead. I don't believe Amillennialists even realize that's what they're doing when they do such things.​

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I'm not judging you. I'm not your judge, brother. Neither do I want to judge you. I have to be harsh

No, you don't.

when your false claim about Jesus comparing binding a strong man to invade his house and plunder his goods with His casting out of demons,

is support for a statement in scripture saying that Satan will be unable to deceive the nations for a thousand years. Because you keep bringing it up even though it's been shown to be a TOTAL fallacy over and over.

But, I am not saying that the casting out of demons alone relates to his binding, so you are misrepresenting my view.

Here is something I've said relating to the binding of Satan before. Read this so you get my full understanding of the binding of Satan.

Satan being bound has nothing to do with completely incapacitating Satan as premils believe, it has to do with Jesus destroying his works (1 John 3:8) and taking the power of death away from him (Hebrews 2:14-15) in order to make the way for the gospel of Christ to shine light to the world that was formerly almost completely in spiritual darkness because they had "no hope, and were without God in the world" (Ephesians 2:11-13).

I believe all of the following passages relate to Satan's binding and all of them talk about the impact that Jesus and the preaching of His gospel has had on the world for the past almost 2,000 years.

Matthew 12:28 But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you. 29 Or else how can one enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he first bind the strong man? and then he will spoil his house.

1 John 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

John 12:31 Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out. 32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me. 33 This he said, signifying what death he should die.

Luke 10:17 And the seventy returned again with joy, saying, Lord, even the devils are subject unto us through thy name. 18 And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.

Hebrews 2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; 15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.

Acts 26:14 And when we were all fallen to the earth, I heard a voice speaking unto me, and saying in the Hebrew tongue, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks. 15 And I said, Who art thou, Lord? And he said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest. 16 But rise, and stand upon thy feet: for I have appeared unto thee for this purpose, to make thee a minister and a witness both of these things which thou hast seen, and of those things in the which I will appear unto thee; 17 Delivering thee from the people, and from the Gentiles, unto whom now I send thee, 18 To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.

All of the above passages relate to the binding of Satan which has to do with Jesus coming to "destroy the works of the devil" by way of taking "the power of death" away from him which he formerly used to keep the world (especially the Gentiles) in spiritual darkness and in slavery to the fear of death (due to previously having no hope of eternal life). Before He came very few Gentiles in the world had been saved, but after that a multitude has been saved. That was made possible by way of Jesus binding Satan and restraining the power he once held over the world to make it possible for people to be delivered "from the power of Satan unto God".

The binding of Satan has nothing to do with making Satan completely powerless as premils think. It has to do with spoiling his house, destroying his works, taking the power of death away from him and keeping him from deceiving almost the entire world while keeping them in spiritual darkness as slaves to the fear of death as he was able to do in OT times.

The same goes for you saying that the destruction of Satan's works (his power over death) is talking about Satan being unable to deceive the nations for a thousand years - because Satan's works were not destroyed for "a thousand years", but forever and ever.

Don't his works include deceiving the nations? Is that not what he is doing before being bound and is then able to do again when he is loosed? How do you explain Revelation 20:7-9 then? And how do you explain the following passage then...

2 Thessalonians 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. 8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: 9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, 10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

Neither will his works be "un-destroyed" for a little season wen he is released again and made able to deceive the nations for that little season again.

How can the man of sin (that wicked) come "after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders" then?

The destruction of Satan's works (his power over death) does not talk about ANY millennium - even if that millennium has been the current status quo since the resurrection of Christ - because his works were destroyed forever and ever.

And I'm glad you have made the above resolution. I'm willing to do the same for as long as I continue to feel comfortable that you're sticking to your resolve.

That's fine.

Because you need to re-invent the meaning of certain scriptures (CHANGE THEIR MEANING) - like Jesus comparing binding a strong man before he can invade his house and plunder his goods with Himself casting demons out of a person

- to have it talking about Satan being unable to deceive the nations for a thousand years.​

I never equated the casting out of demons alone with Satan being unable to deceive the nations (ethnos). Please read my overall understanding of the binding of Satan above.

The man was not delivered of demon possession for a thousand years and his demon possession was not turned around for a little season at the close of a thousand years.

That isn't what I'm saying. All you're doing is refuting a straw man argument. You expect me to understand everything you believe, but I don't. And you clearly don't understand everything I believe, either.

Changing the meaning of any part of scripture in order to use those parts of scripture to INVENT scriptural support for the assertion that Satan has been unable to deceive the nations since the resurrection of Christ, is twisting scripture - even if the "millennium" began when Christ rose from the dead. I don't believe Amillennialists even realize that's what they're doing when they do such things.​

I'm not changing the meaning of anything. Your straw man is.