HIDDEN IN PLAIN SIGHT: Why I believe this about the timing of the NHNE

[Spiritual Israelite]

Where you and I disagree is on who Revelation 20:6 is referring to. I believe those mentioned in Revelation 20:6 are the group who were beheaded for their refusal to worship the beast

- a subsection of the total population to be raised from the dead as per 1 Thess 4:16.

So also not necessarily including those mentioned in 1 Thessalonians 4:17 who clearly escaped that martyrdom.

Do you then see the reference to the dead in Christ being resurrected in 1 Thessalonians 4:16 as the second resurrection with the resurrection of only those who were beheaded as being the first resurrection?

When giving the order of bodily resurrections unto immortality in 1 Corinthians 15:22-23, why did Paul only mention Christ's resurrection and the bodily resurrection of those who belong to Christ at His second coming if there was going to also be another, separate bodily resurrection besides what he mentioned?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

LOL. Amil is growing on these forums because most Premils have realized that debating with an Amil is as bad as Paul (Premil) trying to get the Pharisees (Amil) to understand that a fisherman (Peter) understood what they misunderstood and could correctly interpret the scriptures that they misinterpreted - and hence, could and did and was correcting them.

You have your own brand of Premil. Where did Paul ever teach your brand of Premil (or any form of it, really)? I don't see anywhere where he taught that many of the dead who are resurrected will then live on the earth for a long time while being tested.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I have been a preacher called unto prophecy bent for 40 years,

No one cares how long you have been a preacher. It just means you have been preaching falsehood, such as the pre-trib rapture, for a long time.

 

[Ronald D Milam]

Where is your rapture in Rev 4?

Do you understand that there are over-all themes in the bible? If not I would just be wasting effort.

The bible is about Israel, not the gentiles per se. So, its not silent about the pre trib. rapture per se, its just not about the gentiles overall, its about nation of Israel's 12 tribes. God never placed the Letters of Paul in the bible per se, and the Gospels ad to be by mere men, Jesus said if he testified of himself that testimony would not be true, hence we get different takes on the same events at times, these four Gospels were real testimonies by men. Ever see the movie Vantage Point? It shows an event from different points of view and they all see things differently, likewise in court trials, witnesses can testify to the same event very differently, so much so that forensics is their most trusted friend, not witness testimony.

There is ONE HIGE THEME, that Israel did not even understand, most Jews still do not see it and many Gentiles (may on here) do not put it together also. You want to see the Rapture in Rev. 4? I will show it, but first have to tie it all together in a tidy package.

So, God knows all history in advance because He of course lives in all time at once. Thus He gave Israel the Seven (7) Feasts and told them to celebrate these "appointed times" (KEY). They had no idea what God gave them was the whole future history of the world in accordance to God's dealing with mankind over the years up until the 2nd coming and the 1000 year reign.

Leviticus 23 lists these seven feasts in order of their seasonal observance: Passover, Unleavened Bread, First Fruits, Pentecost, Trumpets, Day of Atonement, and Booths or Tabernacles. (Now think about these as periods in real human time, 7 events in history that only the Messiah (Jesus) could fulfill)

Jesus fulfills the Spring Feasts

1.) Feast of Passover (Jesus himself, of course fulfilled thus, his blood atones all men's sin in history, from Adam until the very end of the age of mankind under Satan's rule over earth which Luke 4 says he has)

2.) Feast of Unleavened Bread (Jesus knew no sin, thus he also fulfilled this feast by not having ever sinned unlike any other man, he was both God and man. He never sinned, he was thus Unleavened)

3.) Feast of First-fruits ( Jesus fulfilled this by being raised from the dead as the First-fruits of God to overcome death. He thus was the first-fruits of God the Father, other fruits can now come in via his blood)

The only Summer Feast (think Gentile Church Age all unto itself, outside the other six feasts)

4.) Feast of Pentecost/Feast of Weeks ( Think Church Age Harvesting of Souls, this represents the Summer Harvest Season unto Israel, the First-fruits then the Harvest. Jesus was the First-fruits, now he sits at the right hand of God, the head of the Church Body, we are the body, he is the head, our high priest in heaven who directs our paths as we harvest souls for the Kingdom of God. But alas, what always ended the Harvest season in Israel every year? The Feast of Trumps which I must tie in here to make see all the tie ins between the 7 Feasts, the Pre Trib. Rapture and the 70th week. Once the Trumpets began to blow, they blew in 9 sets of 11 or 99 times, then on the "LAST TRUMP" or 100th Trump the Harvest Season (Church Age Harvest) was ended. So, now when you hear the "Last Trump" people need to understand why Paul called it the last trump, that was because when Jesus sounds as a Trump (see Rev 4:1) he is ending the Church Age Season of Harvesting souls, that is now turned over to the Two-witnesses for Israel and unto an Angel as Rev. 14:6 tells is, an Angel will preach the holy word unto the world, so the church is not on earth after this point because God's calling for the church, to harvest souls has ended, Judgment time is at hand, now the Bride will enter the Marriage Chambers for 7 years, and then the Marriage Feast comes)

The Fall Feasts that once again only pertain unto Israel are now at hand

5.) The Feast of Trumps ( The Feasts of Trumps always ended the Harvest Season, Jesus is the head of the Harvest but he also blows the Last Trump, thus he has now fulfilled 5 of the 7 Feasts right? Of course he has, and the Church at this point is seen in Rev. 4:4 in heaven in white robes, with crowns on, sitting at God's throne, worshiping Jesus and the Father, watching Jesus open the 7 Seals which bring God's Judgments or Wrath (DOTL) in the middle of the 70th week. But just before the 7th Seal is opened in Revelation 8 we have to see Israel repent in Rev. 7, JUST BEFORE Gods Wrath falls in Rev. 8. So, just after the Trumps end the Harvest Season (Church Ae Season) we see Israel must do what? ATONE !! Before the 70th week ends, and before the Wrath of God falls as Zech. 13:8-9 proves will happen, we see 1/3 of Israel repent then in the very next verse we see the DOTL arrives in Zech. 14:1 and in vs. 2 Jerusalem is sacked)

6.) Feast of Atonement (Now it is time for Israel to ATONE for their sins by finally as a Nation accepting Jesus as their Messiah. But ONLY AFTER the Harvest Season of the Summer Harvest (Church Age) comes to an end. Now we know Elijah [and Moses] is sent back JUST BEFORE the Great and Dreadful Day of the Lord or God Wrath falls, we can see this in Malachi 4:5-6. So, the Two-witnesses must show up before the DOTL which hits in the middle of the week on day 1260. So, they are the 1335 Blessing, they show up 1335 days before Jesus ENDS ALL THESE WONDERS/THINGS in Dan. 12:6-8 and on, which is 75 days before the 1260 DOTL which is 1260 days before the 2nd coming. So, Israel ATONES and Jesus' blood fulfills thus)

7.) Feast of Tabernacles ( So, to TABERNACLE in Hebrew simply means to DWELL WITH God. And thus Jesus will fulfill this also when he reigns from Jerusalem with Mankind & Israel fulfilling the promised coming Kingdom Age by Dwelling with Israel/mankind for 1000 years)

Now lets go look at Rev. 4:1 just after the 7 Churches of Rev. 2 and 3 which signifies the Divine and Complete Church Age. What happens? Jesus blows the LAST TRUP to call the Church to heaven where we will Marry the Lamb.

Rev. 4:1 After this(After the Church Age) I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heavenEntrance Way) and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

Only those who refuse to see the obvious can not understand this, the Church Age has ENDED because John said "after this" (Church Age) I saw an OPEN DOOR and eventually Jesus would say COME UP HERE but he did so in a REVERBERATING QUIVERING VOICE and John says it sounded like a Trumpet because it no doubt quivered as a trump but also because it represented, as he knew, the Last Trump which ended the Summer Harvest. Then LASTLY, Jesus tells John I will show you the THINGS WHICH ARE HEREAFTER, meaning after the Church Age as seen in Rev. 2 & 3.

Everything after Rev. 4:1 is the 70th week which now deals with Israel repenting as a Nation and Judgment of the Nations, which means Judgment also of the 2/3 Jews who do not repent.

OTHER KEY SCRIPTURES BELOW

Rev. 4:4 And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.

Now go read Rev. 2:10, Rev. 3:5 and Rev. 3:21, it shows all the PROMISES of those whom OVERCAME the Church Age on these 24 Elders which represents the complete church here, we know this by looking at the bible, in 1 Chronicles 24 we see the 24 Orders of the Priesthood, NOW LOOK BELOW what Jesus said.

Rev. 1:6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

Rev. 5:9 And they(Who is THEY brother) sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;(See it now?) 10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

Who are these people brother? No Jew goes to heaven save Elijah and Moses, they are raised at the very, very end. No Christian goes to heaven until the rapture, (I bet you think otherwise), we know this by reading 1 Cor. 15, all those Dead in Christ will be raised at the exact same time as the Rapture, it specifically say so. Thus when we are CHANGED all that means is we change from a Corrupt Flesh Body which cannot enter Heaven unto the Spirit Man which is how the Dead are Raised WITHOUT CORRUPTION or Sin Flesh as 1 Cor 15:44 says (GO READ), they are sown as flesh men but raised as SPIRIT MEN. Thus we must simply shed out flesh body before we go to Marry Jess where we will get our New Glorious Bodies or White Robes. So, who are they? They can only be the Pre Trib. Raptured Church.

The 7 Feasts prove this is God's plan.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Where is your rapture in Rev 4?

It's not there, of course. Of the MANY weak arguments that pre-tribs make, that might be at the top of the list. To equate John being taken to heaven or being given a vision of heaven with a pre-trib rapture is the biggest stretch of scripture imaginable. It's complete, utter nonsense.

 

[WPM]

Now lets go look at Rev. 4:1 just after the 7 Churches of Rev. 2 and 3 which signifies the Divine and Complete Church Age. What happens? Jesus blows the LAST TRUP to call the Church to heaven where we will Marry the Lamb.

Rev. 4:1 After this(After the Church Age) I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heavenEntrance Way) and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

Only those who refuse to see the obvious can not understand this, the Church Age has ENDED because John said "after this" (Church Age) I saw an OPEN DOOR and eventually Jesus would say COME UP HERE but he did so in a REVERBERATING QUIVERING VOICE and John says it sounded like a Trumpet because it no doubt quivered as a trump but also because it represented, as he knew, the Last Trump which ended the Summer Harvest. Then LASTLY, Jesus tells John I will show you the THINGS WHICH ARE HEREAFTER, meaning after the Church Age as seen in Rev. 2 & 3.

Everything after Rev. 4:1 is the 70th week which now deals with Israel repenting as a Nation and Judgment of the Nations, which means Judgment also of the 2/3 Jews who do not repent.

OTHER KEY SCRIPTURES BELOW

Rev. 4:4 And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.

Now go read Rev. 2:10, Rev. 3:5 and Rev. 3:21, it shows all the PROMISES of those whom OVERCAME the Church Age on these 24 Elders which represents the complete church here, we know this by looking at the bible, in 1 Chronicles 24 we see the 24 Orders of the Priesthood, NOW LOOK BELOW what Jesus said.

Rev. 1:6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

Rev. 5:9 And they(Who is THEY brother) sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;(See it now?) 10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

Who are these people brother? No Jew goes to heaven save Elijah and Moses, they are raised at the very, very end. No Christian goes to heaven until the rapture, (I bet you think otherwise), we know this by reading 1 Cor. 15, all those Dead in Christ will be raised at the exact same time as the Rapture, it specifically say so. Thus when we are CHANGED all that means is we change from a Corrupt Flesh Body which cannot enter Heaven unto the Spirit Man which is how the Dead are Raised WITHOUT CORRUPTION or Sin Flesh as 1 Cor 15:44 says (GO READ), they are sown as flesh men but raised as SPIRIT MEN. Thus we must simply shed out flesh body before we go to Marry Jess where we will get our New Glorious Bodies or White Robes. So, who are they? They can only be the Pre Trib. Raptured Church.

The 7 Feasts prove this is God's plan.

This is all man-made theories. There is no substance to it. That is because you do not have Scripture to support Pretrib. There is no proof-text in Scripture - that is why you twist a text like Revelation 4.

Revelation 4:1-2 has absolutely nothing to do with a secret rapture. In fact, note what it actually says and how it compares to similarly worded passages in Revelation. Remember, the safest way to understand Scripture is to compare Scripture with Scripture.

Revelation 4:1-2 commences, “After this (speaking of his supernatural encounter with Christ on Patmos) I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter. And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.”

There is no allusion here of the Lord descending in the clouds from heaven, there is no mention of the Church, we don’t see the saints rising to meet Him, there is no mention of the dead in Christ being resurrected and those who are alive and remain being caught up, there is no meeting Jesus in the air. It is all an elaborate hoax formulated by men which enjoys no biblical basis for their doctrine.

 

[Big Boy Johnson]

You have your own brand of Premil. Where did Paul ever teach your brand of Premil (or any form of it, really)? I don't see anywhere where he taught that many of the dead who are resurrected will then live on the earth for a long time while being tested.

Christians who are returning in their glorified body (like Jesus has now) will laugh when any testing comes their way as they will be untouchable by death (like Jesus is now)

Christians will be reigning with Jesus on earth during His 1000 year reign in glorified bodies and no testing, temptation, or trials will be able to effect them to draw them away from the Lord.

 

[WPM]

Christians who are returning in their glorified body (like Jesus has now) will laugh when any testing comes their way as they will be untouchable by death (like Jesus is now)

Christians will be reigning with Jesus on earth during His 1000 year reign in glorified bodies and no testing, temptation, or trials will be able to effect them to draw them away from the Lord.

Where exactly does it say that in Revelation 20? It sounds made up to me.

 

[Big Boy Johnson]

Where exactly does it say that in Revelation 20? It sounds made up to me.

No need to worry about it, you won't be participating in these festivities

 

[WPM]

No need to worry about it, you won't be participating in these festivities

You cannot support your claims with hard Scripture, because you do not have it! That is Premil!

Rev 20 is happening now. I am experiencing the blessing of this now.

 

[Zao is life]

Do you understand that there are over-all themes in the bible? If not I would just be wasting effort.

Only those who refuse to see the obvious can not understand this, the Church Age has ENDED because John said "after this" (Church Age) I saw an OPEN DOOR and eventually Jesus would say COME UP HERE

Copy @Davidpt (You may be interested in this post)

Well you may have a point about the timing of Revelation 4 because John was in the spirit, seeing a vision of heaven, and the door that had been opened in heaven for John (immediately before he was made aware of the scroll's existence), allowed John to be able to see the throne of God, and he saw "lightnings and thunderings and voices" coming out from the throne (Revelation 4:5).

LIGHTNINGS, THUNDERINGS AND VOICES

So since you talk about over-all themes, we read of "voices, thunderings, lightnings, and an earthquake" when God speaks in Exodus 20:18, and we read about them again in the seventh seal, and again in the seventh trumpet, and again in the seventh plague or bowl of wrath.

And this theme, and the significance of "lightnings and thunderings and voices" coupled with the theme of seven three times (7, 7, 7) IMO is no accident, because in Joshua chapter 6 there were seven priests blowing seven trumpets announcing the decree of Jericho's impending judgment, and the walls of Jericho fell when the 7th trumpet sounded, the 7th time the Israelite tribes marched around the city, on the 7th of 7 days.

In the Revelation there are seven angels with seven trumpets announcing to the nations the decree of God regarding their impending judgment, and the cities of the nations are seen to fall when the seventh of the seven angels pours out his bowl of wrath.

In Revelation 8:5-6 the 7th seal is opened - and now we read again about lightnings and voices, and thunders - but also an earthquake: "And the angel took the censer and filled it with fire from the altar, and cast it into the earth. And voices and thunderings and lightnings and an earthquake occurred."

The entire scroll now unrolls so that we can now read its contents : "And the seven angels which had the seven trumpets prepared themselves to sound." (This is reminiscent of the seven priests and their seven trumpets when the walls of Jericho fell).

In Revelation 11:19 the 7th trumpet sounds - and now we read again about lightnings and voices, and thunders - but also an earthquake, and great hail: "And the temple of God was opened in Heaven, and there was seen in His temple the ark of His covenant, and occurred lightnings and voices, and thunders and an earthquake, and a great hail.

"But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he will begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as He has declared to His servants the prophets." (Revelation 10:7).

In Revelation 16:17-18 the 7th bowl of wrath is poured out - and we read again about voices and thunders and lightnings occurring - as well as an earthquake: "And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air. And a great voice came out of the temple of Heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done! And voices and thunders and lightnings occurred. And there was a great earthquake, such as has not been since men were on the earth, so mighty and so great an earthquake."

Naturally, the things we read about in the 6th seal, 6th trumpet and 6th bowl of wrath (6, 6. 6) lead into the 7th seal, 7th trumpet and 7th bowl of wrath (7, 7, 7).

So since Revelation Chapter 4 gives the theme of "voices, thunderings and lightenings" coming out from the throne of God, and in scripture we read about "voices, thunderings, lightnings, and an earthquake" when God speaks in Exodus 20:18, and we read about them again in the seventh seal, and again in the seventh trumpet, and again the seventh plague or bowl of wrath, Revelation 4 does seem to be pointing us to the time God's wrath is being poured out.

Revelation Chapter 4 is also the first of the only two times the Revelation talks about a sea of glass. The second time is here:

Revelation 15
1 And I saw another sign in Heaven, great and marvelous: seven angels with the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God.
2 And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire. And those who had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.
3 And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvelous are Your works, Lord God Almighty, just and true are Your ways, O King of saints.
4 Who shall not fear You, O Lord, and glorify Your name? For You only are holy. For all nations shall come and worship before You, for Your righteousnesses were made known.

Revelation 15:7 also speaks again about the four beasts mentioned in Revelation 4:6. In fact those four beasts are mentioned all the way through the Revelation, beginning in Revelation 4:6, in such a way as to show that when John began to be shown the visions of the time of the end in Chapter 4, the four beasts (and most of the time also the 24 elders) are there:

Rev 4:6 & 8; Rev 5:8 & 14; Rev 6:1 & 6; Rev 7:11; Rev 14:3; Rev 15:7 and Rev 19:4.

So from what I can see, at least with regard to what this tells us about the fact that John is seeing visions of God's judgment at the end of the age from Revelation Chapter 4 onward, you are correct - but this is not evidence of a pre-trib rapture unless you ignore all other New Testament scripture, for example:-

"Behold, I will cast her (Jezebel) into a bed, and them (those Christians) that commit adultery with her into mégas thlîpsis (great tribulation), except they repent of their deeds." -- Revelation 2:21

Revelation 7
14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

"For the elect's sake those days shall be shortened." -- Matthew 24:21-22:

"For then shall be great tribulation [megas thlipsis], such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.".

Matthew 24
14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name’s sake.
10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

"We shall reign on the earth":

Revelation 5
8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.
9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

Revelation 15
2 And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.
3 And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints.
4 Who shall not fear thee, O Lord, and glorify thy name? for thou only art holy: for all nations shall come and worship before thee; for thy judgments are made manifest.

Revelation 20
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.​

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Christians who are returning in their glorified body (like Jesus has now) will laugh when any testing comes their way as they will be untouchable by death (like Jesus is now)

What are you referring to exactly when you refer to Christians returning in their glorified body?

Christians will be reigning with Jesus on earth during His 1000 year reign in glorified bodies and no testing, temptation, or trials will be able to effect them to draw them away from the Lord.

Christians will all be changed and then have glorified bodies when He returns at the last trumpet (1 Corinthians 15:50-54), but what evidence do you have that the thousand year reign is future?