Homosexual acts are sinful?

[TonyChanYT]

According to my current reading of the Bible using First-Order Logic, yes homosexual acts are sinful. As usual, I could be wrong. FOL isn't the be-all and end-all. I am not a prophet of the Lord.

Leviticus 18:

22 You shall not lie with a male as with a woman; it is an abomination.

Leviticus 20:

13 If a man has sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They are to be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads.

Romans 1:

26b For their women exchanged natural relations for those that are contrary to nature; 27and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in themselves the due penalty for their error.

1 Corinthians 6:

9 Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men [a] 10 nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

NIV Footnotes: [a] The words men who have sex with men translate two Greek words that refer to the passive and active participants in homosexual acts.

1 Timothy 1:

9 We also know that the law is made not for the righteous but for lawbreakers and rebels, the ungodly and sinful, the unholy and irreligious, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers, 10 for the sexually immoral, for those practicing homosexuality, for slave traders and liars and perjurers—and for whatever else is contrary to the sound doctrine

Jude 1:

7 In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.

1 Corinthians 7:

2 But since sexual immorality is occurring, each man should have sexual relations with his own wife, and each woman with her own husband.

Are homosexual acts sinful?

For each of the above passages, list the pros and cons factors. Be exhaustive and objective in listing the factors. Then for each factor, assign a weight between 0 and 10. I would put a higher weight on Bible verses and a lower weight on extra-biblical writings. Try not to let your preconceived notions influence your weighting. Do this for all the pros and cons for all the passages, Sum up the weights for the pros. Sum up the weights for the cons. Decide for yourself probabilistically.

I use Occam's razor as one of the hermeneutic tools when I interpret Bible verses. Each of the above passages can be explained away by some ad-hoc nuance as referring to a man having sex with a temple prostitute, or a man having sex with a boy, or men having sex with angelic beings, etc. However, there is a simple unifying explanation: it is talking about a man having sex with another man, consented or not. This simple explanation satisfies all 7 passages nicely. To me, this simple unifying factor is worthy of a heavy weight.

See also:

• The concept of men having sex with men and the word for it
• Eunuchs/homosexuals/asexuals
• How to treat LGBTQ+?

 

[JohnDB]

There's more in the Romans passage. And Paul goes to great lengths to explain that homosexuality is the result of an individual's sin while being a sin in and of itself.

This universe has certain laws set up in this particular eco system. One of which is holiness. "Very good" in the creation account in Genesis is a double entendre with "holy". God is the holiest of the holiest of the holy....a 3x distillation of Holy that is extremely pure.

Holy is pure, good, and reserved for special use.
All of creation that has not sinned is Holy.
Holy is a self regulating thing that is not exactly measurable by scientific means but....it is also not a passive designation either...meaning that it is hostile to error should it arise. A sparrow sings, eats bugs and seeds, and flies in the air. If it fails to do any of these things it will die without having offspring.

Mankind is sinful and born of error. BUT God is good and extends mankind a hand of protection that keeps us alive. We call this grace; AKA unearned and unexpected favor.

This grace is not without limits though. If you cut off your arm you will not get another. (No matter how much you repent and apologize to God)
Likewise if you exceed your allocation of moral turpitude the universe will remove your ability to reproduce by only having sexual excitement and attraction with the same sex.
This is the natural order or Holy nature of the world we live in.
Now are some people mentally ill? Of course they are. What exactly God is going to do about such people I don't know or care....that's God's job. Not my job! And I understand that some people have been horrifically abused by family or friends during their youth and the homosexuality is the ultimate result. A Good and loving God will deal appropriately with them. I don't need to or want to.

I do think that endorsement of such lifestyles is as scriptures say an abomination...and abuse....and if done by clergy? I would not want to be in their shoes because they have angered God. And in the hands of an angry God ? I shudder to consider their fate.

 

[Jim C]

According to my current reading of the Bible using First-Order Logic, yes homosexual acts are sinful. As usual, I could be wrong. FOL isn't the be-all and end-all. I am not a prophet of the Lord.

Leviticus 18:


Leviticus 20:


Romans 1:


1 Corinthians 6:


NIV Footnotes: [a] The words men who have sex with men translate two Greek words that refer to the passi Godve and active participants in homosexual acts.

1 Timothy 1:


Jude 1:


1 Corinthians 7:


Are homosexual acts sinful?

For each of the above passages, list the pros and cons factors. Be exhaustive and objective in listing the factors. Then for each factor, assign a weight between 0 and 10. I would put a higher weight on Bible verses and a lower weight on extra-biblical writings. Try not to let your preconceived notions influence your weighting. Do this for all the pros and cons for all the passages, Sum up the weights for the pros. Sum up the weights for the cons. Decide for yourself probabilistically.

I use Occam's razor as one of the hermeneutic tools when I interpret Bible verses. Each of the above passages can be explained away by some ad-hoc nuance as referring to a man having sex with a temple prostitute, or a man having sex with a boy, or men having sex with angelic beings, etc. However, there is a simple unifying explanation: it is talking about a man having sex with another man, consented or not. This simple explanation satisfies all 7 passages nicely. To me, this simple unifying factor is worthy of a heavy weight.

See also:

• The concept of men having sex with men and the word for it
• Eunuchs/homosexuals/asexuals
• How to treat LGBTQ+?

Yes it is. 2 primary reasons in addition to the verses mentioned:

1)  any sexual act outside of marriage is considered by God to be sexual immorality

2) God defines marriage as between man and woman --" and the two shall becomeone flesh "

Therefore, it is impossible for 2 men or 2 women to enter a state where their sexual activity would not be immoral.

 

[Jack]

Anyone know if asking someone if he is gay is against forum rules?

 

[TinMan]

Yes it is. 2 primary reasons in addition to the verses mentioned:

1)  any sexual act outside of marriage is considered by God to be sexual immorality

2) God defines marriage as between man and woman --" and the two shall becomeone flesh "

Therefore, it is impossible for 2 men or 2 women to enter a state where their sexual activity would not be immoral.

Yet God condones and even blesses any number of sexual acts outside or marriage and blesses and condones polygamy and concubines and the sexual use of slaves.
Judges 21:10-24
Numbers 31:7-18
Deuteronomy 20:10-14
Deuteronomy 22:28-29
Deuteronomy 21:10-14
Exodus 21:7-11
2 Samuel 12:8
Deuteronomy 21:15-17
for example

 

[BarneyFife]

Yet God condones and even blesses any number of sexual acts outside or marriage and blesses and condones polygamy and concubines and the sexual use of slaves.
Judges 21:10-24
Numbers 31:7-18
Deuteronomy 20:10-14
Deuteronomy 22:28-29
Deuteronomy 21:10-14
Exodus 21:7-11
2 Samuel 12:8
Deuteronomy 21:15-17
for example

Can't get any takers?

What a bummer.

.

 

[TinMan]

Can't get any takers?

What a bummer.

.

Belittling comment that manages to not address my post. I would expect nothing less from you.

 

[BarneyFife]

Belittling comment that manages to not address my post. I would expect nothing less from you.

You can pretend I hate you all you want, but not everybody gets a dopamine rush from never-ending rhetorical volleying and I'm just saying so.

I say God wasn't condoning these things, but managing them. You insist in your typical, obnoxious way that He should've waved a magic wand and made evil disappear. The goal posts move continuously while you appeal to fairness, feign incredulity, and project your own hate onto everyone else until we all fall in a heap from exhaustion. This is what happens over and over. If I'm wrong I'm not far off and you know it. And no, thank you to all of that nonsense.

but isn't that the message? You have to change to be good enough for God?

It most certainly is not.

Who have you been talking to?

.

So, why do you think Christianity is about cleaning yourself up before coming to Jesus for peace and rest?

.

 

[TinMan]

You can pretend I hate you all you want, but not everybody gets a dopamine rush from never-ending rhetorical volleying and I'm just saying so.

Who said I hate you?

I say God wasn't condoning these things, but managing them. You insist in your typical, obnoxious way that

Or i can be pointing out that while he was making hundreds of other laws he could have just added "one wife at a time"

He should've waved a magic wand and made evil disappear. The goal posts move continuously while you appeal to fairness, feign incredulity, and project your own hate onto everyone else until we all fall in a heap from exhaustion. This is what happens over and over. If I'm wrong I'm not far off and you know it.

So...you are a mind reader now?\.

 

[Jack]

Who said I hate you?

Or i can be pointing out that while he was making hundreds of other laws he could have just added "one wife at a time"

So...you are a mind reader now?\.

Gays on Christian sites won't admit they are gays. Hmm

 

[TinMan]

You can pretend I hate you all you want, but not everybody gets a dopamine rush from never-ending rhetorical volleying and I'm just saying so.

I say God wasn't condoning these things, but managing them. You insist in your typical, obnoxious way that He should've waved a magic wand and made evil disappear. The goal posts move continuously while you appeal to fairness, feign incredulity, and project your own hate onto everyone else until we all fall in a heap from exhaustion. This is what happens over and over. If I'm wrong I'm not far off and you know it. And no, thank you to all of that nonsense.



.

so tell me. When God kills Onan for not completing the rape of his widowed sister-in-law....how is that not condoning rape?
When God makes elaborate rules for inheritance of children born in polygamous marriages...how is that not condoning polygamy?
When God told David he would have given David even more wives how is that not condoning polygamy?
When God makes a law detailing when it is acceptable to have sex with your father's concubine and when it is an abomination to do so...how is that not condoning polygamy and what may well be the rape of that concubine (I'm sure she had no say in the matter)?

 

[TinMan]

Gays on Christian sites won't admit they are gays. Hmm

Are you gay Jack?

 

[Jack]

Are you gay Jack?

No, I'm Christian. Now answer your own question.

 

[TinMan]

No, I'm Christian.

"Gays on Christian sites won't admit they are gays."

 

[BarneyFife]

Who said I hate you?

First I'm hearing of it.

Or i can be pointing out that while he was making hundreds of other laws he could have just added "one wife at a time"

He probably thought the Garden Of Eden, Abraham, Joseph, etc. stories would get the point across well enough. I know that much of that's just mythology to skeptics but I think Moses was pretty serious about it. I usually try my best to explain this stuff in great detail to folks who are interested. And by "interested" I don't mean the social media equivalent of "looking for a good place to deposit some bodily waste."

What do you think the children of Israel would have done if God had straightened out all the wicked curves they picked up in Egypt? I think they would have gone all "TinMan" on Him and headed straight back to Egypt. I'm just spitballing but it could actually be that He knew what He was doing.

So...you are a mind reader now?\.

No, I just have this remarkably superhuman ability to recognize patterns of discussion.

.

 

[Jack]

"Gays on Christian sites won't admit they are gays."

So admit it. Clearly that's why you are obsessed with promoting the LGBTQ hallway to Hell.

 

[BarneyFife]

so tell me. When God kills Onan for not completing the rape of his widowed sister-in-law....how is that not condoning rape?
When God makes elaborate rules for inheritance of children born in polygamous marriages...how is that not condoning polygamy?
When God told David he would have given David even more wives how is that not condoning polygamy?
When God makes a law detailing when it is acceptable to have sex with your father's concubine and when it is an abomination to do so...how is that not condoning polygamy and what may well be the rape of that concubine (I'm sure she had no say in the matter)?

Are you Matt Dillahunty?

'Cause I think you are -lol.

Either you think someone out there knows why God does everything He does or you sincerely want to see people lose their faith in Him. I don't see any third way. But, then, I'm not your judge and you have to be free to follow the dictates of your conscience as you are convicted by God himself.

So why do you think people have to clean themselves up before they can come to Jesus for peace and rest?

That seems like a much bigger concern to me than isolated objections to God's strategies and tactics—maybe even a third way.

.

 

[Jack]

Are you Matt Dillahunty?

'Cause I think you are -lol.

Either you think someone out there knows why God does everything He does or you sincerely want to see people lose their faith in Him. I don't see any third way. But, then, I'm not your judge and you have to be free to follow the dictates of your conscience as you are convicted by God himself.

So why do you think people have to clean themselves up before they can come to Jesus for peace and rest?

That seems like a much bigger concern to me than isolated objections to God's strategies and tactics—maybe even a third way.

.

LOL

 

[BarneyFife]

So admit it. Clearly that's why you are obsessed with promoting the LGBTQ hallway to Hell.

Jack, you're so mean. (<---not coffee—herbal tea)

.

 

[Jack]

Jack, you're so mean. (<---not coffee—herbal tea)

.

I love LGBT's. I want to pull them from the fire!