What were the sins of Sodom?

[TonyChanYT]

Genesis 19

1 The two angels came to Sodom in the evening, and Lot was sitting in the gate of Sodom. When Lot saw them, he rose to meet them and bowed himself with his face to the earth

The two angels had the appearance of males.

2 “My lords,” he said, “please turn aside to your servant’s house. You can wash your feet and spend the night and then go on your way early in the morning.”
“No,” they answered, “we will spend the night in the square.”
3But he insisted so strongly that they did go with him and entered his house. He prepared a meal for them, baking bread without yeast, and they ate.

So far so good. But then:

4 Before they had gone to bed, all the men from every part of the city of Sodom—both young and old—surrounded the house. 5They called to Lot, “Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us so that we can have sex with them.”

The men of Sodom wanted to have sex with the men-guests of Lot. That's homosexual acts. For that, they were immediately punished:

10 But the men inside reached out and pulled Lot back into the house and shut the door. 11Then they struck the men who were at the door of the house, young and old, with blindness so that they could not find the door.

Jude 1 agrees with this:

7 In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.

The citizens of Sodom committed other sins also, particularly the female citizens. Ezekiel 16:

49“ ‘Now this was the sin of your sister Sodom: She and her daughters were arrogant, overfed and unconcerned; they did not help the poor and needy.

 

[Cassandra]

Sodom sin was not homosexuality--those people who came to Lots house were perverse.
It started with pride. It got to the point where they were so in tune with themselves that what Ezekiel in Eze 16:49 wrote ( which you quoted but did it afterward you said it was homosexuality.). No, it was before that. ‘Now this was the sin of your sister Sodom: She and her daughters were arrogant, overfed and unconcerned; they did not help the poor and needy." This was the beginning of her fall. It just got worse.Sodom became more and more debased over the years.
There was already perversion in the cities of the plain. It was an intent to rape the angels who came in.
Have you ever read of the inhospitality done to visitors?


"

Sodomite Hospitality​

The Sodomites enjoyed a relatively high standard of living. Regarding Sodom, the Torah tells us that the entire plain was “well-watered . . . like the garden of G‑d,”2 and it follows that the crops were plentiful and good. The selfish Sodomites did not want to share this bounty with outsiders. To this end, they enacted laws and took great pains to repel travelers.
For example, in order to enter Sodom, one had to cross a river. The townspeople built a bridge over the river, and charged a fee of four zuzim for all who chose to cross it. Now, should someone try to bypass the toll by swimming across the river, the law was that he would pay a double fee of eight zuzim as a penalty.
It once happened that a traveler, ignorant of the local custom, swam across the river, hoping to save himself four zuzim. As he tried to enter the city, the guards stopped him.
“Pay the bridge fee!” they demanded.
“But I did not use the bridge,” the hapless fellow replied. “I swam across the river instead.”
“In that case, you owe us eight zuzim.”


The stranger refused to pay the exorbitant fee, and the guards soundly beat him. When they were finished with him, the wounded man dragged himself to the magistrate and demanded recompense for his suffering. The judge listened carefully to his tale of woe and then issued his verdict:

“For having crossed the river, you owe eight zuzim, as is the law. As to the beating, you must reward each of the fine gentlemen at the gate, because everyone knows the medical benefit of an occasional bloodletting.”3
The Talmud does not tell us what happened next to the poor man. However, we hope that he left posthaste, because an even worse fate awaited those who chose to remain.
The thoughtful Sodomites provided guest houses in their city, each with beds of a single standard size. When a guest came looking for lodgings, they would make sure that the bed fit perfectly. If he was shorter than the bed, his hosts would stretch him out until he fit. Should he be too tall for the bed, they would hack off his feet.4
An unfortunate beggar once wandered into Sodom and began going from door to door, begging for alms. To his surprise, every householder greeted him warmly and gave him a coin.
Overjoyed, he rushed to the nearest store, hoping to purchase some food, his first meal in days. But the shopkeeper turned him away. The same thing repeated itself wherever the man proffered his coins. Eventually the poor man expired from hunger. The clever Sodomites, who knew that this would happen, came running to retrieve their coins, upon which they had each thoughtfully marked their names.

https://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/2017931/jewish/Sodom-and-Gomorrah-Cities-Destroyed-by-G-d.htm

Similar crap happened by the Benjamites in Judges 19. the Levite and his concubine wanted to stay in a tribal town. A gentleman asked them to stay in his house, and finally they agreed after first wanting to stay outside thinking it was safe. BAM! BAM! the Benjaminites knocked on the door wanting to rape the pair. The Levite finally threw his concubine out there,and they abused her so much she died.
The Levite guy cut up her body and sent it to the other tribes. After a few skirmishes, The tribe of Benjamin was almost wiped out.

 

[TonyChanYT]

Sodom sin was not homosexuality--those people who came to Lots house were perverse.

Did you read the OP?

4 Before they had gone to bed, all the men from every part of the city of Sodom—both young and old—surrounded the house. 5They called to Lot, “Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us so that we can have sex with them.”

The men of Sodom wanted to have sex with the men-guests of Lot. That's homosexual acts.

 

[JohnDB]

Sodom's sins were many. Not just homosexuality...
Lot knew and recognized the Messengers...the men of Sodom didn't.

 

[Cassandra]

Did you read the OP?


The men of Sodom wanted to have sex with the men-guests of Lot. That's homosexual acts.

They wanted to rape them. They were already debased--anything goes. Did you read Judges 19? the Benjaminites did the same thing. Yet they are still a tribe--how does that happen?

Judges 19:22
22 While they were enjoying themselves, some of the wicked men of the city surrounded the house. Pounding on the door, they shouted to the old man who owned the house, “Bring out the man who came to your house so we can have sex with him.”

23 The owner of the house went outside and said to them, “No, my friends, don’t be so vile. Since this man is my guest, don’t do this outrageous thing. 24 Look, here is my virgin daughter, and his concubine. I will bring them out to you now, and you can use them and do to them whatever you wish. But as for this man, don’t do such an outrageous thing.”

 

[Truthnightmare]

Genesis 19


The two angels had the appearance of males.


So far so good. But then:


The men of Sodom wanted to have sex with the men-guests of Lot. That's homosexual acts. For that, they were immediately punished:


Jude 1 agrees with this:


The citizens of Sodom committed other sins also, particularly the female citizens. Ezekiel 16:

Agreed… I believe angels are male.

 

[Papa Smurf]

The men of Sodom wanted to have sex with the men-guests of Lot. That's homosexual acts. For that, they were immediately punished:
The citizens of Sodom committed other sins also, particularly the female citizens.

Hello Tony, why do you single out the "female citizens" of Sodom as the ones who were specially at fault for committing the others sins of Sodom (mentioned in Ezekiel 16:49), the sins from which the far more detestable sins (abominations) sprung? If that's what v49's "daughters" is actually referring to (Sodom's "female citizens", that is), does it not then follow that it was the women, not the men, who were guilty of committing the abominations/detestable acts mentioned in the following verse, since v50 begins by saying "thus ~THEY~ were haughty and committed abominations".

Ezekiel 16 (NASB)​

49 “Behold, this was the guilt of your sister Sodom: she and her daughters had arrogance, abundant food and careless ease, but she did not help the poor and needy. ​

50 Thus they were haughty and committed abominations before Me. Therefore I removed them when I saw it.” ​

I've always understood Sodom and her daughters to be a Jewish/OT idiom that refers to the city of Sodom ~AND~ to the environs (the other communities/sister cities) that surrounded Sodom (including Gomorrah?). Perhaps I am misunderstanding your meaning however. If so, please help me understand what you mean instead.

Thanks!

God bless you!!

--Papa Smurf

 

[TonyChanYT]

They wanted to rape them.

I am having trouble understanding you. Are you saying that Men raping them is not a homosexual act?

 

[TonyChanYT]

Hello Tony, why do you single out the "female citizens" of Sodom as the ones who were specially at fault for committing the others sins of Sodom (mentioned in Ezekiel 16:49)

Because Ezekiel did. I cited Ezekiel. I merely repeated Ezekiel.

 

[Truthnightmare]

Because Ezekiel did. I cited Ezekiel. I merely repeated Ezekiel.

Ezekiel 16
Behold, this was the iniquity of thy sister Sodom, pride, fulness of bread, and abundance of idleness was in her and in her daughters, neither did she strengthen the hand of the poor and needy

Literal sisters and daughters?

 

[Jack]

Romans 1:26-27
26 For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature.
27 Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful,

 

[Cassandra]

I am having trouble understanding you. Are you saying that Men raping them is not a homosexual act?

No. you arent having trouble understanding me. You are trying to affirm what you said.
It started with pride. the people of the plain were proud of their cities and were not hospitable as was required. Then they got to where they didnt care about their own people. That is where the Eze verse comes in. And they became more selfish, and I posted stories of their behavior. Their conscience lost, they became depraved. It wasn't like they went up to Lots door and asked for a date--it was their selfish intent to rape. Ezekiel would not have said what he said if it weren't true. The sins of Sodom were many, not just one.

Well, what about Judges 19? Can you tell me why they weren't judged the same?

 

[Jack]

No. you arent having trouble understanding me. You are trying to affirm what you said.
It started with pride. the people of the plain were proud of their cities and were not hospitable as was required. Then they got to where they didnt care about their own people. That is where the Eze verse comes in. And they became more selfish, and I posted stories of their behavior. Their conscience lost, they became depraved. It wasn't like they went up to Lots door and asked for a date--it was their selfish intent to rape. Ezekiel would not have said what he said if it weren't true. The sins of Sodom were many, not just one.

Well, what about Judges 19? Can you tell me why they weren't judged the same?

So it's just coincidence that LGBT is on the RAMPAGE? Attacking children in public schools (cess pools)?

 

[TonyChanYT]

No. you arent having trouble understanding me.

Now I am really having trouble understanding you. Are you me? Do you have my brain?

Let proposition P1 = Man raping a man is a homosexual act.

True?

This is the 3rd and the last time I have asked. I prefer to debate with people who can think and write propositionally.

 

[Cassandra]

Now I am really having trouble understanding you. Are you me? Do you have my brain?

Let proposition P1 = Man raping a man is a homosexual act.

True?

This is the 3rd and the last time I have asked. I prefer to debate with people who can think and write propositionally.

'Do you have my brain?"

That is not what destroyed Sodom. Sodom was going to be destroyed prior to the men wanting to rape the angels, wasn't it?

Let P1= Angels coming to destroy Sodom prior to action of the men.

I think it is the 2nd time I have asked you about Judges 19. You can't answer, can you?

And I prefer to debate someone who doesn't think they are all that and a bag of chips.

 

[JohnDB]

No. you arent having trouble understanding me. You are trying to affirm what you said.
It started with pride. the people of the plain were proud of their cities and were not hospitable as was required. Then they got to where they didnt care about their own people. That is where the Eze verse comes in. And they became more selfish, and I posted stories of their behavior. Their conscience lost, they became depraved. It wasn't like they went up to Lots door and asked for a date--it was their selfish intent to rape. Ezekiel would not have said what he said if it weren't true. The sins of Sodom were many, not just one.

Well, what about Judges 19? Can you tell me why they weren't judged the same?

They were judged the same way.
They were all killed later though...different story. Judges 19 was told to explain something different but the same at the same time. It was a story of how bad things had gotten in Israel. Follow the city of Gibeah...the Benjamite city.

By the time we get to Samuel things hadn't changed and even the high priest and his sons were pretty lousy. As a result his legacy was destroyed and his family line ended.

Homosexuality is a sin in itself. However Paul in Romans explains how it happens and that its the result of sin while being a sin in and of itself.

This is a further Biblical explanation of what is termed "common grace" where mankind is allowed and protected from the universe by a certain measure of grace by God. Exceeding that measure of grace comes with dire consequences....Homosexuality is one such dire consequence. (No legacy or future...demonstrating no eternal life either)

Even though the Israelites were a "nation of priests" they weren't exempt from punishment....in fact those who have allegiance to God are given double punishment compared to what the rest of the world is given. That is one reason (amongst a host of others) that Christians seek a highly moral lifestyle instead of one involving moral turpitude.

 

[Lambano]

Do you have my brain?

Just make sure you give it back to him in good shape when you're done with it, @Cassandra.

 

[Papa Smurf]

Because Ezekiel did. I cited Ezekiel. I merely repeated Ezekiel.

Hi Tony, I finally have the time to reply to your last post to me, and I apologize for taking so long to do so! I will start out in a bit of an unusual way (for me anyway) with an analogy (of sorts), which I am hoping will make sense to you (we shall see ).

So here we go. If I said to you that the ONLY way to be the Lord Jesus' disciple is to HATE your father, HATE your mother, and HATE your wife and children and brothers and sisters, I would hope that you'd disagree with me (if I gave you nothing more to go on than that, that is).

Of course, I could justify such a belief to you by saying what you just did .. "I cited Jesus. I merely repeated Jesus", and that would be the truth (see below). So, that begs the questions, why would it be wrong for me to do so, and how do we know that the first blush/plain/literal meaning of "HATE" in this case is not what the Lord intended to convey to us?

Luke 14 (NASB)​

26 If anyone comes to Me, and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be My disciple.​

So it is with many of the sayings and/or idioms (in both the OT and the New) like "Daughter of Zion/Daughter of Jerusalem", "Samaria and her daughters", "Sodom and her daughters", etc., because while most of these sayings/idioms had a common meaning that was understood by all (in the place and time that they were used), they can have quite a different meaning to our eyes if we don't understand that/don't understand their cultural/historical meaning and, thereby, the intended meaning of the Author.

Finally, and as I'm sure that you'd agree, a "literal" interpretation of the text must, out of necessity, incorporate everything that qualifies or gives it meaning, yes, things like Grammar, Biblical context, Cultural context, Historic context, etc.

I've included a few things below that may help a bit with certain parts of Ezekiel 16 (a Chapter which, if taken out-of-context, appears to make several indictments against women as horrible sinners, while failing to credit to men with the same ).

ENCYCLOPEDIA OF THE BIBLE – DAUGHTER OF ZION​

​

ZION, DAUGHTER OF (בַת־צִיֹּ֔ון; LXX θυγάτηρ Σιών). A fig. expression frequently used by the OT prophets for Jerusalem and its inhabitants.​

​

Lamentations 2:10, which speaks of the “elders of the daughter of Zion,” clearly shows that the ~whole population~ of Jerusalem is thus personified, and that the construct is here used in an appositional sense. ​

​

Such a fig. use of “daughter of” is not confined to “daughter of Zion.” Psalm 137:8 refers to the “daughter of Babylon.” Isaiah uses the expression with Jerusalem, Babylon, Sidon, Tarshish, and Gallim. Jeremiah speaks twice of the “daughter of Egypt” and twice of the “daughter of Babylon.” In his Book of Lamentations, “daughter of Jerusalem” appears twice, “daughter of Edom” twice, and “daughter of Judah” three times. In ~all~ of these cases a nation or city is personified, giving recognition to the human character of the inhabitants.​

​

The figure was particularly popular with the prophets.​

​

Statistics for “daughter of Zion” tell much the same story. In 2 Kings 19:21 “daughter of Zion” is paralleled by “daughter of Jerusalem,” showing their essential equivalence; the statement is made by Isaiah, who uses the phrase six times in the Book of Isaiah. Jeremiah uses “daughter of Zion” eleven times in the Books of Jeremiah and Lamentations. Micah, Zephaniah and Zechariah also use the expression.​

​

In contrast to this usage, the pl., “daughters of,” generally refers to individual women (e.g., Isa 3:16), but is used a number of times to indicate the suburbs or villages belonging to a city. In the NT “daughter of Zion” appears in Matthew 21:5 and John 12:15.​

Here is more on this from one of my commentaries,

II. The exceeding riches of God’s grace—​

Vile as the Jews had been, he promises in our text to restore them to his favour—[That the same persons are addressed as have been described in all the preceding context, is evident from the two verses before our text. The two tribes of Judah and Benjamin having followed the Canaanites in their abominations, it is said, that “their father was an Amorite, and their mother a Hittite.” Their character is then compared with that of Samaria and of Sodom (who are called their sisters), and is said to have been worse than either. ​

​

Yet, says God, I will restore “Sodom and her daughters (i. e. ~the heathen world at large~), and Samaria and her daughters (i. e. the ten tribes of Israel), to their former estate;” ~Simeon, C. (1832). Horae Homileticae: Jeremiah to Daniel (Vol. 9, p. 383). Holdsworth and Ball.​

God bless you!!

--Papa Smurf
p.s. - below is a link to an online page of various commentaries on Ezekiel 16:53. If you go there, search the word "daughters" (there are 29 uses of the word there) and you will quickly see more examples of this for yourself (and if you'd care to, you can do the same with other verses of Ezekiel 16 while you are there).

~Ezekiel 16:53 Commentaries: "Nevertheless, I will restore their captivity, the captivity of Sodom and her daughters, the captivity of Samaria and her daughters, and along with them your own captivity,​

 

[TonyChanYT]

So, that begs the questions, why would it be wrong for me to do so, and how do we know that the first blush/plain/literal meaning of "HATE" in this case is not what the Lord intended to convey to us?

I employ A Disciplined Probabilistic Approach to Biblical Hermeneutics and put a weight on the interpretation.

 

[Cassandra]

Which means, @Papa Smurf, that all of the wisdom, and lovingly so, put into your posts, means nothing, because he has no intentions of admitting he is wrong. I'm sure he translates Revelation 17 the same way:'Babylon the great, the mother of prostitutes" as being a literal city of harlots.
And trying to one up you with his link is pretty dork. The link is dork, too.
Personally, i think it's all he has. I believe he has such a low self image that his trying to be all that with his approaches to things, is just a way for him to try to show himself better than the average, because he sure doesn't believe that about himself.

Anyway, thank you for your posts. I'm putting Mr. Pompous back on ignore.