How could the Messiah be sinless?

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justbyfaith

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So you dont trust Jesus.
That is an unfounded accusation.

Obviously the people who would be obeying John's exhortation in 1 John 4:1-3 would not be ceasing from trusting in Jesus.

The Lord exhorts us, through John, under inspiration of the Holy Ghost, to test the spirits as to whether they are from God.

Bottom line.

So, you may be trusting a demon and thinking that it is Jesus (because you have failed to test that spirit)...especially if the spirit in question is testifying to you that Jesus isn't God...for that is a doctrine that is essential to salvation (John 8:24). You must believe that Jesus is the great I AM, or die in your sins.
 

justbyfaith

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Can you find the words pre-existed or incarnation in the Bible?
The concepts are there.

incarnation: John 1:14, 1 Timothy 3:16 (kjv). likely, not an exhaustive list.

pre-existence of Jesus: compare the fact that in Luke. 1-2, John the Baptist was both conceived and born six months before Jesus was conceived and born; while John the Baptist testifies in John 1 that Jesus existed before him.
 
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mjrhealth

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So, you may be trusting a demon and thinking that it is Jesus (because you have failed to test that spirit)...especially if the spirit in question is testifying to you that Jesus isn't God...for that is a doctrine that is essential to salvation (John 8:24). You must believe that Jesus is the great I AM, or die in your sins.
Funny isnt it how many read the bible say they are testing the spirit and still get it so wrong, and still after 2000 years men refuse to go to Christ. Even the devil quoted scripture to JEsus....
 
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justbyfaith

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Funny isnt it how many read the bible say they are testing the spirit and still get it so wrong, and still after 2000 years men refuse to go to Christ. Even the devil quoted scripture to JEsus....
When the devil quoted scripture, he quoted it incorrectly...he took out the words, "in all thy ways" because that would have ministered to Jesus and helped Him in the midst of His temptation.

This is a reason why I go with the kjv (the Textus Receptus) and not some of the watered-down translations that take out entire phrases (sometimes verses; and in some cases even entire passages) where keeping them in would be of ministry to the person reading them. I don't want to be cheated out of being helped when the devil quotes some verse out of a watered-down translation that is missing an element that could help me in my struggle.

You may think that people who are reading their Bibles are getting it wrong; but let me just say this: they are getting it "righter" than those who don't read their Bibles at all.
 

justbyfaith

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Let me also say this: if you truly know the voice of Jesus, His voice is unmistakeable to you and you will run from the voice of strangers.
 

mjrhealth

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When the devil quoted scripture, he quoted it incorrectly...he took out the words, "in all thy ways" because that would have ministered to Jesus and helped Him in the midst of His temptation.

This is a reason why I go with the kjv (the Textus Receptus) and not some of the watered-down translations that take out entire phrases (sometimes verses; and in some cases even entire passages) where keeping them in would be of ministry to the person reading them. I don't want to be cheated out of being helped when the devil quotes some verse out of a watered-down translation that is missing an element that could help me in my struggle.

You may think that people who are reading their Bibles are getting it wrong; but let me just say this: they are getting it "righter" than those who don't read their Bibles at all.
I think you are in for a very rude shock....
 

Renniks

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Well said, but I don't believe correct. in other words, 'it is impossible for the blood of bull and goats to take away sins' permanently. Which is why they had to be offered perpetually. This was the author of Hebrews point, that Christ's final sacrifice covered future sins, the Levitical oblations were only as good until one's next sin. Plus, there were prescriptions for the unknown sins, which would include any action considered offensive to God. Yes, morality cannot be legislated, but Yom Kippur was just exactly for that. The Day of Atonement was just that, propitiation with God.
And, purification was done prior to the sacrifice. The priests were to be pure before ministering on the altar. The Israelites were mandated to be pure prior to assembling before God, the Sacrifices were not conducted yet as far as sin offering is concerned.

Faith was not the means to salvation during the Old Covenant, just by the fact that there were two very distinct Covenants. Those who follow the Law, shall live by them, that is, find life through them. David extolled the virtues of the Law as being perfect, and as being Israel's righteousness. They were saved by the Law for the appointed time, in order to stress the stringent demands that God establishes as perfection. Abraham's faith was a forerunner to what was to come, but was not the mandate during the implementation of the Levitical Law. This is why Paul never claims to have faith during his pharisaic period, he only speaks of his exemplary observance of the Law of works.
If faith saved during the time of the Mosaic Law, then there would be no need for a new Law.
Well we are starting to see why you misunderstand the atonement. If I could truly be justified by the blood of bulls and Rams, then really, Jesus sacrifice was unnecessary. And why would he have to be divinity, when he was only accomplishing what animals had accomplished previously?
In Romans 4, Paul used the Old Testament to show salvation has always been by God’s grace and can only be received through faith.

"was it after he was circumcised, or before? It was not after, but before! 11 And he received circumcision as a sign, a seal of the righteousness that he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised."

So we see that the ritual of circumcision didn't actually do anything as far as salvation. None of the law did.

"Therefore it is of faith that it might be according to grace, so that the promise might be sure to all the seed, not only to those who are of the law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all."

Of this salvation the prophets have inquired and searched carefully, who prophesied of the grace that would come to you, searching what, or what manner of time, the Spirit of Christ who was in them was indicating when He testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ and the glories that would follow. To them it was revealed that, not to themselves, but to us they were ministering the things which now have been reported to you through those who have preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven—things which angels desire to look into. (1 Peter 1:10–12

Christ-led, Spirit-given understanding of the gospel was the core of the prophetic message.

And from Jesus himself:
Then He said to them, “O foolish ones, and slow of heart to believe in all that the prophets have spoken! Ought not the Christ to have suffered these things and to enter into His glory?” And beginning at Moses and all the Prophets, He expounded to them in all the Scriptures the things concerning Himself. (Luke 24:25–27)

Then He said to them, “Thus it is written, and thus it was necessary for the Christ to suffer and to rise from the dead the third day, and that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in His name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.” (Luke 24:44–47)

Notice: He claimed the Prophets testified about Him. He also showed that He could be found in the Psalms.


But those things which God foretold by the mouth of all His prophets, that the Christ would suffer, He has thus fulfilled. Repent therefore and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, so that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord, and that He may send Jesus Christ, who was preached to you before, whom heaven must receive until the times of restoration of all things, which God has spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since the world began. (Acts 3:18–24)

Not believing in animal sacrifice but belief in the promise of Christ has always been the way to justification before God.

Paul explained in Romans 4 that salvation has always been and will always be by God’s grace and received through faith alone.

Even Abel understood the nature of a bloody sacrifice and the death of a substitute, and because of his faith in God, he was regarded by God as righteous (Hebrews 11:4).

Read Hebrews11 Now faith is confidence in what we hope for and assurance about what we do not see. 2 This is what the ancients were commended for.

Faith has always been the way. And specifically faith in God, not in a man.
 

farouk

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Well we are starting to see why you misunderstand the atonement. If I could truly be justified by the blood of bulls and Rams, then really, Jesus sacrifice was unnecessary. And why would he have to be divinity, when he was only accomplishing what animals had accomplished previously?
In Romans 4, Paul used the Old Testament to show salvation has always been by God’s grace and can only be received through faith.

"was it after he was circumcised, or before? It was not after, but before! 11 And he received circumcision as a sign, a seal of the righteousness that he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised."

So we see that the ritual of circumcision didn't actually do anything as far as salvation. None of the law did.

"Therefore it is of faith that it might be according to grace, so that the promise might be sure to all the seed, not only to those who are of the law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all."

Of this salvation the prophets have inquired and searched carefully, who prophesied of the grace that would come to you, searching what, or what manner of time, the Spirit of Christ who was in them was indicating when He testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ and the glories that would follow. To them it was revealed that, not to themselves, but to us they were ministering the things which now have been reported to you through those who have preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven—things which angels desire to look into. (1 Peter 1:10–12

Christ-led, Spirit-given understanding of the gospel was the core of the prophetic message.

And from Jesus himself:
Then He said to them, “O foolish ones, and slow of heart to believe in all that the prophets have spoken! Ought not the Christ to have suffered these things and to enter into His glory?” And beginning at Moses and all the Prophets, He expounded to them in all the Scriptures the things concerning Himself. (Luke 24:25–27)

Then He said to them, “Thus it is written, and thus it was necessary for the Christ to suffer and to rise from the dead the third day, and that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in His name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.” (Luke 24:44–47)

Notice: He claimed the Prophets testified about Him. He also showed that He could be found in the Psalms.


But those things which God foretold by the mouth of all His prophets, that the Christ would suffer, He has thus fulfilled. Repent therefore and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, so that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord, and that He may send Jesus Christ, who was preached to you before, whom heaven must receive until the times of restoration of all things, which God has spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since the world began. (Acts 3:18–24)

Not believing in animal sacrifice but belief in the promise of Christ has always been the way to justification before God.

Paul explained in Romans 4 that salvation has always been and will always be by God’s grace and received through faith alone.

Even Abel understood the nature of a bloody sacrifice and the death of a substitute, and because of his faith in God, he was regarded by God as righteous (Hebrews 11:4).

Read Hebrews11 Now faith is confidence in what we hope for and assurance about what we do not see. 2 This is what the ancients were commended for.

Faith has always been the way. And specifically faith in God, not in a man.
Faith is indeed the key. Faith is indeed the theme of Hebrews 11. Abraham was justified by faith before circumcision was established under the law.
 

Tong2020

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Faith was not the means to salvation during the Old Covenant, just by the fact that there were two very distinct Covenants. Those who follow the Law, shall live by them, that is, find life through them. David extolled the virtues of the Law as being perfect, and as being Israel's righteousness. They were saved by the Law for the appointed time, in order to stress the stringent demands that God establishes as perfection. Abraham's faith was a forerunner to what was to come, but was not the mandate during the implementation of the Levitical Law. This is why Paul never claims to have faith during his pharisaic period, he only speaks of his exemplary observance of the Law of works.
If faith saved during the time of the Mosaic Law, then there would be no need for a new Law.
If you'll state it plain and simple, in the OT, God saved through what if not through faith? Will that be by perfect obedience to the law? For I recall what Paul said about the circumcised, that he is a debtor to keep the whole law. Can you name one who was saved in the OT times and how he was not saved through faith but by the Law? Or is what you say there in your post just your own conclusion and opinion?

Tong
R0915
 

Renniks

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If you'll state it plain and simple, in the OT, God saved through what if not through faith? Will that be by perfect obedience to the law? For I recall what Paul said about the circumcised, that he is a debtor to keep the whole law. Can you name one who was saved in the OT times and how he was not saved through faith but by the Law? Or is what you say there in your post just your own conclusion and opinion?

Tong
R0915
Yes, if they were saved by keeping the law perfectly, none of the patriarchs would have been saved, because they all broke the law.
 

mjrhealth

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And, what might be the reason for it?
Like this

[MKJV] I Corinthians 1:27
But God has chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God has chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;

[MKJV] I Corinthians 3:19
For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God; for it is written, "He takes the wise in their own craftiness."

Even Paul after His coming to Christ,

[MKJV] Philippians 3:8
But no, rather, I also count all things to be loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord, for whose sake I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them to be dung, so that I may win Christ

But every man is wise in his own eyes.
 

justbyfaith

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Like this

[MKJV] I Corinthians 1:27
But God has chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God has chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;

[MKJV] I Corinthians 3:19
For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God; for it is written, "He takes the wise in their own craftiness."

Even Paul after His coming to Christ,

[MKJV] Philippians 3:8
But no, rather, I also count all things to be loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord, for whose sake I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them to be dung, so that I may win Christ

But every man is wise in his own eyes.
So, how do those verses translate into a rude shock for me?
 

justbyfaith

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When you wake up and find out how wrong you where about Him.
If that were to occur, I know that I have erred on the side of what is taught by holy scripture.

And I don't believe that the Lord will condemn me for that.

He might condemn you, however, for believing contrary to holy scripture that Jesus isn't the great I AM. For Jesus said that if your belief is not that He is the God who created you, you will die in your sins.
 
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mjrhealth

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If that were to occur, I know that I have erred on the side of what is taught by holy scripture.

And I don't believe that the Lord will condemn me for that.

He might condemn you, however, for believing contrary to holy scripture that Jesus isn't the great I AM. For Jesus said that if your belief is not that He is the God who created you, you will die in your sins.
He isn't He is the Christ our redeemer. Of course you may argue the finer points with His father ,if you must.
 

justbyfaith

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He isn't He is the Christ our redeemer. Of course you may argue the finer points with His father ,if you must.

When you stand before the judgment seat of God, whether you believe that Jesus is the great I AM, will be a deciding factor as concerning where your final destination will be. If you don't, Jesus is clear in saying that you will die in your sins.

I cannot reveal this to you except by holy scripture; but perhaps if I persist in ministering to you on the issue, it will be revealed to you by the Holy Ghost.

Abba Father, I lift up @mjrhealth to You. I ask You to reveal to him that the holy scriptures are your word and that they reveal to us about the Deity of Christ in a clear and concise manner. Open his heart and mind to the truth. In Jesus' Mighty Name. Amen.
 

mjrhealth

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When you stand before the judgment seat of God, whether you believe that Jesus is the great I AM, will be a deciding factor as concerning where your final destination will be. If you don't, Jesus is clear in saying that you will die in your sins.

I cannot reveal this to you except by holy scripture; but perhaps if I persist in ministering to you on the issue, it will be revealed to you by the Holy Ghost.

Abba Father, I lift up @mjrhealth to You. I ask You to reveal to him that the holy scriptures are your word and that they reveal to us about the Deity of Christ in a clear and concise manner. Open his heart and mind to the truth. In Jesus' Mighty Name. Amen.
Being there, Im fine. But you are responsible for so many as a teacher, be careful what you wish upon others, it may fall upon you.

And why did you keep them from me?? Jesus asks,, well Jesus, its like this, im a teacher.....