How could the Messiah be sinless?

[Cooper]

Tong2020 said: ↑
May I ask a couple of questions, who do you say He is? Is the Son of man, Deity (God)?

Now, you say the Son of man is Deity and that His Spirit is the Father. You cited a couple of passages. But any Christian will see that said scriptures does not say what you say there, but that, what you say is your own conclusion coming from your human wisdom, reasoning, and thinking.

The title Son of man is a title that scriptures used of Jesus. Son of "man", the title says. That alone tells us that the title Son of man, pertains to the man, not to the Deity.

Tong
R1013

This might help, read slowly and thoughtfully : -

Jesus is Yahweh
1Sa 16:6 And it happened as they came in, that he saw Eliab, and said, Surely before YAHWEH is His Messiah.

2Sa 19:21 And Abishai the son of Zeruiah answered and said, Shall not Shimei be put to death for this, because he cursed the messiah of YAHWEH?

Act 10:36 The Word which He sent to the sons of Israel, preaching the good news of peace through Yahshua Messiah, He is Master YAHWEH of all.

Act 2:36 Then assuredly, let all the house of Israel acknowledge that YAHWEH made known this same Yahshua whom you crucified, He is both YAHWEH and Messiah.

Isa 44:6 Thus saith Jehovah, the King of Israel, and his Redeemer, Jehovah of hosts: I am the first, and I am the last; and besides me there is no God.

Isa 54:5 For thy Maker is thy husband; Jehovah of hosts is his name: and the Holy One of Israel is thy Redeemer; the God of the whole earth shall he be called.

Luk 2:11 For today is born to you in the city of David, the Savior, who is YAHWEH, the Messiah.

Psa 28:8 YAHWEH is their strength, and He is the fortress of Y'shua*, He is His Messiah.

Rom 9:5 whose are the fathers, and from whom is the Messiah according to flesh, He being YAHWEH over all, blessed forever. Amen.
.

 

[justbyfaith]

This is what it says in Exodus 3:14 according to some:

Exo 3:14, And God said unto Moses, WE ARE THAT WE ARE: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, WE ARE hath sent me unto you.

In reality this is what is written:

Exo 3:14, And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.

 

[justbyfaith]

Those who relies on their human wisdom, reasoning, thinking, and understanding, in determining the truth, finds the things of the Spirit of God, to be foolishness.

Why then, does God say in His word,

Isa 1:18, Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
Those who relies on their human wisdom, reasoning, thinking, and understanding, in determining the truth, finds the things of the Spirit of God, to be foolishness.

Why then, does God say in His word,

Isa 1:18, Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.

And that is what happens. The misuse of scriptures. To whom did the LORD saith that? Why did He say that to them? Does that at all speak about using human wisdom, reasoning, and thinking in determining the truth? Very far from it sir. Not that the word "reason" is mentioned that a scriptures such as Isa. 1:18 supports the use of human wisdom, reasoning, and thinking in determining the truth. No sir.

Proverbs 3:5
Trust in the Lord with all your heart, And lean not on your own understanding;

Tong
R1016

 

[justbyfaith]

Tong2020 said: ↑
Those who relies on their human wisdom, reasoning, thinking, and understanding, in determining the truth, finds the things of the Spirit of God, to be foolishness.

And that is what happens. The misuse of scriptures. To whom did the LORD saith that? Why did He say that to them? Does that at all speak about using human wisdom, reasoning, and thinking in determining the truth? Very far from it sir. Not that the word "reason" is mentioned that a scriptures such as Isa. 1:18 supports the use of human wisdom, reasoning, and thinking in determining the truth. No sir.

Proverbs 3:5
Trust in the Lord with all your heart, And lean not on your own understanding;

Tong
R1016

God does in fact encourage the sinner to use his human reasoning capabilities and to reason with the Lord, in order that his sins, which are as scarlet, may be made as white as snow.

In Proverbs 3:5, God is talking to the believer in Christ, telling him not to lean on his own understanding, in that our own understanding concerning any matter can be faulty; and when our human reasoning tells us things that result in having doctrines of devils, for example, we are to rely on Christ in faith and believe in Him, rather than go by our own understanding.

It is not saying that we are never to use our reasoning capabilities, that we are supposed to check our brain in at the door of becoming a believer in Christ. God wants us to use our brains. But sometimes our brains don't think properly, and we can come to faulty conclusions (even from reading our Bibles) that our heart knows are faulty. In such an occasion, we are not to lean on our own understanding but we are to hold fast to Christ in faith.

 

[Tong2020]

God does in fact encourage the sinner to use his human reasoning capabilities and to reason with the Lord, in order that his sins, which are as scarlet, may be made as white as snow.

It only confirms here the misuse of the Isaiah 1:18 passage.

In Proverbs 3:5, God is talking to the believer in Christ, telling him not to lean on his own understanding, in that our own understanding concerning any matter can be faulty; and when our human reasoning tells us things that result in having doctrines of devils, for example, we are to rely on Christ in faith and believe in Him, rather than go by our own understanding.

To rely on Christ in faith means, not going beyond what God had revealed as written in scriptures. Anything beyond and in addition to God's revelation in scriptures, imagined, invented, or a product and conclusion of one's own understanding coming from human reasoning and thinking regarding the revealed things of the Spirit of God, must be dismissed and purged, and not be taught as doctrines of Christ. For such are obviously doctrines of men and are dangerous.

It is not saying that we are never to use our reasoning capabilities, that we are supposed to check our brain in at the door of becoming a believer in Christ. God wants us to use our brains. But sometimes our brains don't think properly, and we can come to faulty conclusions (even from reading our Bibles) that our heart knows are faulty. In such an occasion, we are not to lean on our own understanding but we are to hold fast to Christ in faith.

I am not at all saying that the Christian are never to use their reasoning capabilities, but that, there is a misuse of the passage in Isaiah 1:18.

With regards the things of the Spirit of God, God wants us to believe them, as such, is faith. For it is said, faith comes by hearing God's words. It is faith that comes and not reasoning. Consider: if not by faith, Abraham would not have obeyed the words of God, if only he used his human wisdom, reasoning, and thinking.

Tong
R1017

 

[justbyfaith]

It only confirms here the misuse of the Isaiah 1:18 passage.

However, you are using human reasoning to come to that conclusion. You need to not rely on your own understanding.

To rely on Christ in faith means, not going beyond what God had revealed as written in scriptures.

Which, I don't do.

I am not at all saying that the Christian are never to use their reasoning capabilities, but that, there is a misuse of the passage in Isaiah 1:18.

How is Isaiah 1:18 being misused? If Christians are not, never to use their reasoning capabilities, then Isaiah 1:18 is being applied properly by me.

 

[Tong2020]

However, you are using human reasoning to come to that conclusion. You need to not rely on your own understanding.

I can see that you can't tell the difference between perception and reasoning.

How is Isaiah 1:18 being misused? If Christians are not, never to use their reasoning capabilities, then Isaiah 1:18 is being applied properly by me.

You asked "How is Isaiah 1:18 being misused?" Isaiah 1 is about the vision of Isaiah which he saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem in the days of Uzziah. It does not concern the Christian, but the Israelites. Verse 18 have a context. It's not as you say that it means that God encourage the sinner to use his human reasoning capabilities and to reason with the Lord, in order that his sins, which are as scarlet, may be made as white as snow. Rather, that God was telling them (whom God had chosen to be His people, nourished and brought up), to wash themselves, make themselves selves clean and put away their evil deeds, cease to do evil, and learn to do good. He invites them to reason with Him concerning what He just told them in verses 1-17 (especially that in the immediate context in verses 16-17), saying and I quote:

18 “Come now, and let us reason together,”
Says the Lord, “Though your sins are like scarlet,
They shall be as white as snow;
Though they are red like crimson,
They shall be as wool.
19 If you are willing and obedient,
You shall eat the good of the land;
20 But if you refuse and rebel,
You shall be devoured by the sword”;
For the mouth of the Lord has spoken

Clearly, it is not as you misuse the passage, misusing it to mean that God encourage the sinner to use his human reasoning capabilities and to reason with the Lord, in order that his sins, which are as scarlet, may be made as white as snow. Even a hint of such idea is nowhere to be found in Isaiah 1:18. How could you misuse the passage? Well,...

Tong
R1018

 

[justbyfaith]

It's not as you say that it means that God encourage the sinner to use his human reasoning capabilities and to reason with the Lord, in order that his sins, which are as scarlet, may be made as white as snow.

I beg to differ.

Clearly, it is not as you misuse the passage, misusing it to mean that God encourage the sinner to use his human reasoning capabilities and to reason with the Lord, in order that his sins, which are as scarlet, may be made as white as snow

I think that we will have to agree to disagree.

Even a hint of such idea is nowhere to be found in Isaiah 1:18.

You're out of your mind.

 

[Tong2020]

I beg to differ.

What is there in begging to differ? That will not change the truth that scriptures does not say that God encourage the sinner to use his human reasoning capabilities and to reason with the Lord, in order that his sins which are as scarlet, may be made as white as snow. That will not change the truth that what scriptures teach is that one's sins will be washed clean by the blood of Jesus Christ and not by one's human reasoning capabilities and his reasoning with the Lord.

I think that we will have to agree to disagree.

As you say then.
-------------------------------------------------------------------

Tong2020 said: ↑
Even a hint of such idea is nowhere to be found in Isaiah 1:18.

You're out of your mind.

Are you very ? Well, apparently so....

By the way, if ever I am out of my mind as you say, so be it, if it be for the glory of Christ and of God and for the sake of truth. I may be a fool in your sight, but certainly is wise in Christ, as all who are in Christ are.

Tong
R1019

 

[justbyfaith]

That will not change the truth that scriptures does not say that God encourage the sinner to use his human reasoning capabilities and to reason with the Lord, in order that his sins which are as scarlet, may be made as white as snow.

That is not the truth.

That will not change the truth that what scriptures teach is that one's sins will be washed clean by the blood of Jesus Christ and not by one's human reasoning capabilities and his reasoning with the Lord.

Now you have twisted it. My point is that a person will come to faith in Jesus Christ if they use their reasoning capabilities to reason with the Lord. Of course a man is cleansed by the blood of Jesus Christ. However He must place his faith in the shed blood of Jesus Christ to be saved. And people come to faith through reasoning out the scriptures. That is what Isaiah 1:18 teaches.

If you are not out of your mind, you are simply blind; because you cannot see that the scripture plainly teaches what I am saying it teaches. Iow, you are in denial (it ain't just a river in Egypt!). For the scripture in question plainly teaches an invitation to use your reasoning capabilities in order to come to the knowledge of the truth. So, I will pray that the Lord opens your eyes; but after that, there is not much more that I can do for you.

Isa 1:18, Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.

At the very least, if you cannot see the truth of the matter, the casual reader can see the truth of the matter plainly.

 

[justbyfaith]

This is what it says in Exodus 3:14 according to some:

Exo 3:14, And God said unto Moses, WE ARE THAT WE ARE: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, WE ARE hath sent me unto you.

In reality this is what is written:

Exo 3:14, And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.

 

[justbyfaith]

I encourage the reader to go to the following thread and read at least the first five posts in the thread:

True Trinity.

I would rather men go to Christ as He would than read mens fables.

The posts in question certainly do not contain fables; but they contain an application of holy scripture.

 

[Tong2020]

That is not the truth.

That's right, it is not truth that scriptures teach that God encourage the sinner to use his human reasoning capabilities and to reason with the Lord, in order that his sins which are as scarlet, may be made as white as snow.

Now you have twisted it. My point is that a person will come to faith in Jesus Christ if they use their reasoning capabilities to reason with the Lord.

Exactly what I was refuting from you. Scriptures says that faith comes to one by hearing the word of God, not by using their human wisdom and reasoning nor by reasoning with God. I already gave you an example, which you just ignored. So, I ask for you to again consider this truth: Abraham would not have obeyed the words of God, if only he used his human wisdom, reasoning, and thinking. But Abraham, not listening to his human wisdom, reasoning, and thinking, but rather listened to God's words, faith came to him, that is, faith in God (not in his reasoning abilities to reason with God).

Of course a man is cleansed by the blood of Jesus Christ. However He must place his faith in the shed blood of Jesus Christ to be saved. And people come to faith through reasoning out the scriptures. That is what Isaiah 1:18 teaches.

That is what you teach, but not scriptures, and for sure, not Isaiah 1:18. And I doubt if you have other scriptures to support your teaching.

If you are not out of your mind, you are simply blind; because you cannot see that the scripture plainly teaches what I am saying it teaches. Iow, you are in denial (it ain't just a river in Egypt!). For the scripture in question plainly teaches an invitation to use you reasoning capabilities in order to come to the knowledge of the truth. So, I will pray that the Lord opens your eyes; but after that, there is not much more that I can do for you.

Isa 1:18, Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.

At the very least, if you cannot see the truth of the matter, the casual reader can see the truth of the matter plainly.

Well, if you are the one reading, and read it out of context, that would be the result.

Isaiah 1:1 The vision of Isaiah the son of Amoz, which he saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem in the days of Uzziah, Jotham, Ahaz, and Hezekiah, kings of Judah.

2 Hear, O heavens, and give ear, O earth!
For the Lord has spoken:
“I have nourished and brought up children,
And they have rebelled against Me;
3 The ox knows its owner
And the donkey its master’s crib;
But Israel does not know,
My people do not consider.”

4 Alas, sinful nation,
A people laden with iniquity,
A brood of evildoers,
Children who are corrupters!
They have forsaken the Lord,
They have provoked to anger
The Holy One of Israel,
They have turned away backward.

5 Why should you be stricken again?
You will revolt more and more.
The whole head is sick,
And the whole heart faints.
6 From the sole of the foot even to the head,
There is no soundness in it,
But wounds and bruises and putrefying sores;
They have not been closed or bound up,
Or soothed with ointment.

7 Your country is desolate,
Your cities are burned with fire;
Strangers devour your land in your presence;
And it is desolate, as overthrown by strangers.
8 So the daughter of Zion is left as a booth in a vineyard,
As a hut in a garden of cucumbers,
As a besieged city.
9 Unless the Lord of hosts
Had left to us a very small remnant,
We would have become like Sodom,
We would have been made like Gomorrah.

10 Hear the word of the Lord,
You rulers of Sodom;
Give ear to the law of our God,
You people of Gomorrah:
11 “To what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices to Me?”
Says the Lord.
“I have had enough of burnt offerings of rams
And the fat of fed cattle.
I do not delight in the blood of bulls,
Or of lambs or goats.

12 “When you come to appear before Me,
Who has required this from your hand,
To trample My courts?
13 Bring no more futile sacrifices;
Incense is an abomination to Me.
The New Moons, the Sabbaths, and the calling of assemblies—
I cannot endure iniquity and the sacred meeting.
14 Your New Moons and your appointed feasts
My soul hates;
They are a trouble to Me,
I am weary of bearing them.
15 When you spread out your hands,
I will hide My eyes from you;
Even though you make many prayers,
I will not hear.
Your hands are full of blood.

16 “Wash yourselves, make yourselves clean;
Put away the evil of your doings from before My eyes.
Cease to do evil,
17 Learn to do good;
Seek justice,
Rebuke the oppressor;
Defend the fatherless,
Plead for the widow.

18 “Come now, and let us reason together,”
Says the Lord,
“Though your sins are like scarlet,
They shall be as white as snow;
Though they are red like crimson,
They shall be as wool.
19 If you are willing and obedient,
You shall eat the good of the land;
20 But if you refuse and rebel,
You shall be devoured by the sword”;
For the mouth of the Lord has spoken.

If you understood verse 18 in context and not misuse it, go ahead and tell us, how would Judah and Jerusalem reason with God that would make their sins be as white as snow?

Tong
R1022

 

[justbyfaith]

I don't do that kind of thing.

Tong
R1015

Well, please name for me (provide a link to our communications in) the threads where we have previously encountered each other.

 

[Tong2020]

Well, please name for me (provide a link to our communications in) the threads where we have previously encountered each other.

I think I'll have to leave that task to you.

Tong
R1023

 

[justbyfaith]

That's right, it is not truth that scriptures teach that God encourage the sinner to use his human reasoning capabilities and to reason with the Lord, in order that his sins which are as scarlet, may be made as white as snow.

No, your exact statement here is not the truth:

That will not change the truth that scriptures does not say that God encourage the sinner to use his human reasoning capabilities and to reason with the Lord, in order that his sins which are as scarlet, may be made as white as snow.

.
.
.

Scriptures says that faith comes to one by hearing the word of God,

That is not all that scripture teaches on the matter.

That is what you teach, but not scriptures, and for sure, not Isaiah 1:18.

Yes, Isaiah 1:18. And at this point, I do not believe that your issue is an intellectual one; but rather it is an issue of the heart. You will yourself not to believe the reality of what Isaiah 1:18 teaches; you have hardened your heart to the truth of this matter.

Well, if you are the one reading, and read it out of context, that would be the result.

Isaiah 1:1 The vision of Isaiah the son of Amoz, which he saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem in the days of Uzziah, Jotham, Ahaz, and Hezekiah, kings of Judah.

2 Hear, O heavens, and give ear, O earth!
For the Lord has spoken:
“I have nourished and brought up children,
And they have rebelled against Me;
3 The ox knows its owner
And the donkey its master’s crib;
But Israel does not know,
My people do not consider.”

4 Alas, sinful nation,
A people laden with iniquity,
A brood of evildoers,
Children who are corrupters!
They have forsaken the Lord,
They have provoked to anger
The Holy One of Israel,
They have turned away backward.

5 Why should you be stricken again?
You will revolt more and more.
The whole head is sick,
And the whole heart faints.
6 From the sole of the foot even to the head,
There is no soundness in it,
But wounds and bruises and putrefying sores;
They have not been closed or bound up,
Or soothed with ointment.

7 Your country is desolate,
Your cities are burned with fire;
Strangers devour your land in your presence;
And it is desolate, as overthrown by strangers.
8 So the daughter of Zion is left as a booth in a vineyard,
As a hut in a garden of cucumbers,
As a besieged city.
9 Unless the Lord of hosts
Had left to us a very small remnant,
We would have become like Sodom,
We would have been made like Gomorrah.

10 Hear the word of the Lord,
You rulers of Sodom;
Give ear to the law of our God,
You people of Gomorrah:
11 “To what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices to Me?”
Says the Lord.
“I have had enough of burnt offerings of rams
And the fat of fed cattle.
I do not delight in the blood of bulls,
Or of lambs or goats.

12 “When you come to appear before Me,
Who has required this from your hand,
To trample My courts?
13 Bring no more futile sacrifices;
Incense is an abomination to Me.
The New Moons, the Sabbaths, and the calling of assemblies—
I cannot endure iniquity and the sacred meeting.
14 Your New Moons and your appointed feasts
My soul hates;
They are a trouble to Me,
I am weary of bearing them.
15 When you spread out your hands,
I will hide My eyes from you;
Even though you make many prayers,
I will not hear.
Your hands are full of blood.

16 “Wash yourselves, make yourselves clean;
Put away the evil of your doings from before My eyes.
Cease to do evil,
17 Learn to do good;
Seek justice,
Rebuke the oppressor;
Defend the fatherless,
Plead for the widow.

18 “Come now, and let us reason together,”
Says the Lord,
“Though your sins are like scarlet,
They shall be as white as snow;
Though they are red like crimson,
They shall be as wool.
19 If you are willing and obedient,
You shall eat the good of the land;
20 But if you refuse and rebel,
You shall be devoured by the sword”;
For the mouth of the Lord has spoken.

If you understood verse 18 in context and not misuse it, go ahead and tell us, how would Judah and Jerusalem reason with God that would make their sins be as white as snow?

This is very simply dealt with by understanding that the scripture does not contradict itself. And therefore the immediate context of any given scripture verse will never nullify the plain meaning of that verse.

The answer to your final question is: the same way that any Gentile might reason with God so that their sins will be as white as snow.

 

[justbyfaith]

I think I'll have to leave that task to you.

Tong
R1023

No; because it is your claim that we have encountered each other before; and it is my contention that we have not. Why would I go searching for something that I do not believe I would be able to find?

 

[Tong2020]

No; because it is your claim that we have encountered each other before; and it is my contention that we have not. Why would I go searching for something that I do not believe I would be able to find?

Well, you can do and believe as you please. It is you who have such thoughts that I was posting under a different screen name. I simply told you that I don't do such thing. How do you suppose would your request make sense and I quote "please name for me (provide a link to our communications in) the threads where we have previously encountered each other."? Our exchanges are between the names Tong2020 and justbyfaith (i.e. if you only have one user name or account). So, you can check that out for yourself.

Tong
R1024

 

[mjrhealth]

The posts in question certainly do not contain fables; but they contain an application of holy scripture.

you mean the bible, gets quoted a lot, by many doesnt it.