I would encourage the reader to be a Berean (Acts of the Apostles 17:10-11) and study the scriptures to see whether what I am saying is so; beginning with the scriptures that I have referenced.
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And nobody denies that. But that does not however mean that Jesus Christ is the Father nor does it mean that He is the Holy Spirit.
The problem is not with the scriptures you repeatedly cite, which does not teach what you teach that the Son is the Father. The problem is taking the revelations in those verses and using human wisdom and reasoning, crafting out a conclusion and teaching it as though it is a revelation of God in scriptures, which is clearly not. Clearly not, for there isn't a single passage in scriptures that teach that the Son is the Father or that the Father is the Son.
You asked "Do you deny that the Father is the Lord of heaven and earth?" And you can't stop asking such questions even while I have already answered it. Do you want me to deny by doing that? So, let me tell you directly and plainly, I do not deny that the Father is the Lord of heaven and earth.
Scriptures tell us who the Son of man is. May I ask a couple of questions, who do you say He is? Is the Son of man, Deity (God)?
Why do you keep dwelling in human wisdom, reasoning, and thinking regarding this matter about God, when you have not done that when you started off with accepting the truth of the gospel, in and through the spirit (or spiritually)? Had you not believed with all your heart, that Jesus, the Christ, the Lord, suffered, died, and resurrected, for our salvation, without you having a problem with human wisdom, reason, and thinking? So, do not keep counting spirits and gods, when scriptures says there is but one God, who is spirit, and who revealed Himself in three distinct persons of Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Believe as you did in the beginning. As God is one, the Father, the Son, the Holy Spirit, are not three separate Gods, but are the three distinct persons of the one God.
Tong
R1011
That the fulness of the Godhead dwells in Jesus Christ in bodily form means that the Father and the Holy Ghost dwell in the Person of Jesus Christ as a singular Spirit.
I beg to differ. Isaiah 9:6 is clear that the son that was given shall have among other names the name of "the everlasting Father". In order to come to your understanding of things, you have to change the wording of this scripture, twice. How much better to take it simply at face value?
No, you had not yet answered it, while I know that in the post that I am responding to, you are about to answer it.
Do you deny that there is one Lord? or do you deny that Jesus is the Lord?
Because now, you would have to deny one or the other (or both) in order not to believe that Jesus is the Father.
Yes. His Spirit is the Father (John 4:23-24, John 14:7-11).
Then you must realize that they are absolutely ONE (being one God).
What this means is that they are the same Spirit, the same Lord, and the same God (1 Corinthians 12:4-6).
I know you'll get it eventually. I'm going to pray for you.
On the contrary Tong has given you the correct and biblical understanding of the Godhead -- Father, Son, and Holy Spirit -- three divine persons yet one God.
It is you who has somehow gone off the rails, and are confusing and confounding the truth.
That is merely what you think.
I know that my view of the Godhead is accurate. I have studied it out and have asked the Lord for revelation on the subject; and have studied the holy scriptures diligently with the doctrine of the Trinity always in the back of my mind for years until I came to the proper conclusion.
I say to you verily that the Trinity can be understood as a doctrine.
I also do not deny that the members of the Trinity are distinctly three different Persons.
For I say that Jesus is the Father come in human flesh. Jesus is here in the flesh; while the Father inhabiteth eternity. But they are the same Spirit.
We have one God.
That is absurd. Jesus is the "only begotten Son of God" therefore He cannot be the Father. Just like you cannot be your father. There is another person here who claims that Jesus is the Holy Spirit. Another erroneous belief.
1. God the Father is neither the Son nor the Holy Spirit.
2. God the Son is neither the Father nor the Holy Spirit.
3. God the Holy Spirit is neither the Father nor the Son.
See 1 Corinthians 1:18-21.
He can be and is. You would see this if you took Isaiah 9:6 at face value instead of changing the wording of that scripture twice in order to come up with what you deem to be "sound doctrine".
What the verse speaks about is the the fulness of the Godhead dwelling in Jesus Christ. That does not mean that when the Father and the Holy Spirit dwells in Jesus Christ, that Jesus Christ is the Father and is the Holy Spirit sir.
I've already taken this up with you in our past exchanges, so I will not go into that again here.
It's because you are using your human wisdom, reasoning, and thinking, that you see it to be like that.
I can see how when one really gets confused. I'll try to make it as plain and clear for you, and perhaps you might stop asking such questions.
Scriptures says there is one Lord. He is God. God revealed Himself in scriptures in the persons of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Is the Father the one Lord? Yes. Is the Son (Jesus Christ) the one Lord? Yes. Is the Holy Spirit the one Lord? Yes. Now, there are not three Lords, but one Lord. You can understand that either by faith or by human wisdom. That's up to you. But let me say this, if the Christian try to understand that using their human wisdom, reasoning, and thinking, (as you here do), they will surely fall short and fail.
Tong
R1012
Tong2020 said: ↑
May I ask a couple of questions, who do you say He is? Is the Son of man, Deity (God)?
The title Son of man is a title that scriptures used of Jesus. Son of "man", the title says. That alone tells us that the title Son of man, pertains to the man, not to the Deity.
Tong
R1013
May I ask a couple of questions, who do you say He is? Is the Son of man, Deity (God)?
Now, you say the Son of man is Deity and that His Spirit is the Father. You cited a couple of passages. But any Christian will see that said scriptures does not say what you say there, but that, what you say is your own conclusion coming from your human wisdom, reasoning, and thinking.
The title Son of man is a title that scriptures used of Jesus. Son of "man", the title says. That alone tells us that the title Son of man, pertains to the man, not to the Deity.
Tong
R1013
marksman
My eldest granddaughter showing the result of her
About ten years ago, I asked this very same question. The Holy Spirit gave me the answer to it. Because Jesus had a perfect relationship with the Father.
Why does the doctrine of the Trinity have to be so hard to understand that no one can understand it?
I believe that I do understand it; and if you don't that is fine: you merely have to accept it on faith. As for me, "my faith has become my eyes"...I understand the Trinity and my reasoning, thinking , and wisdom do not fail me.
I accept what the word of God says about the Trinity on faith. But my understanding is more concise than yours is. You ought to pray that you might understand the Trinity better and then begin to search the scriptures for information that will help you to understand the Trinity better. You can be sure that concepts of the relationship between time and eternity will be a factor in your coming to a true understanding of these concepts.
Any Christian who is honest with themselves will see that the passages in question (John 4:23-24, John 14:7-11) say what I say they say. Do you think that you can deter people from reading them by saying that they don't say what they do say? That people will just take your word for it and not study it out for themselves? You need to understand that those who are elected by God are going to be Bereans in the matter (Acts of the Apostles 17:10-11).
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Sinning comes natural because of the sin nature. Sinning is not what makes you a sinner persay, it is the sin nature that makes a sinner! Human beings are born sinner's by nature. Babies as cute as they are have a sin nature. You do not learn sin you are born with it.
Mat 22:42 Saying, What think ye of Christ? whose son is he? They say unto him, The Son of David.
Mat 22:43 He saith unto them, How then doth David in spirit call him Lord, saying,
Mat 22:44 The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool?
Mat 22:45 If David then call him Lord, how is he his son?
I encourage the reader to go to the following thread and read at least the first five posts in the thread:
True Trinity.
True Trinity.
By faith, one understands the revelations of God concerning His being. Those who relies on their human wisdom, reasoning, thinking, and understanding, in determining the truth, finds the things of the Spirit of God, to be foolishness. Not that the things of the Spirit of God are foolishness, but that, they are not understood by the natural senses of the man, but are spiritually discerned. The wisdom of God far far greater surpasses all of human wisdom. That is why it is written "Where is the wise? Where is the scribe? Where is the disputer of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?".
Proverbs 3:5
Trust in the Lord with all your heart, And lean not on your own understanding;
Nobody here is deterring people from reading scriptures. To the contrary, the Christian is encouraged to be as the Bereans of Acts 17:11. Do not take a single word from me, except it be found and in keeping with scriptures.
Tong
R1014
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