How Is a Pastor's Salary Determined ?
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aspen
“"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few
as long as they are underpaid and left living hand to mouth, I think most churches feel like they are paying them well
Prentis
New Member
According to the fatness of the wallets of the congregation?
Organizational churches basically come down to a bunch of people paying one man to be spiritual for them. It is very unlike the community life, and unity of the Spirit Christ came to set up.
Working for ten shekels and a shirt? Never a good idea. We should be workers for God, not for men. Asking people to pay to hear the words of God is akin to Simon seeking to pay Peter to get a share in the Lord's anointing. It is from the devil, and so as Peter said to Simon, those who do this will perish with their money! Yikes! :blink:
According to how much education he has in a worldly system? Little different from John and Peter, and not to mention Jesus!
Organizational churches basically come down to a bunch of people paying one man to be spiritual for them. It is very unlike the community life, and unity of the Spirit Christ came to set up.
Working for ten shekels and a shirt? Never a good idea. We should be workers for God, not for men. Asking people to pay to hear the words of God is akin to Simon seeking to pay Peter to get a share in the Lord's anointing. It is from the devil, and so as Peter said to Simon, those who do this will perish with their money! Yikes! :blink:
According to how much education he has in a worldly system? Little different from John and Peter, and not to mention Jesus!
FHII
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All the money that is taken into the Church offering, according to God, is determinined by the Pastor. That's the bottom line because God said so. Now, if the Pastor wants to obey God, and the Gov't, then he has certain rules to follow. And frankly, God's more liberal with how the money is spent than the gov't is.
As for the givers, it's a topic that has nothing to do with them. We are to give for the teaching, and what's in our heart. We aren't supposed to care about how the money is spent. Otherwise, we aren't giving. We are investing, which isn't the same.
So many trust the Minister with their soul, but not their money.... So many trust him to preach the truth, which is necesssary for faith, but don't think he can manage money correctly. I really shows that people put more trust in mammon than they do in their souls, their preacher and God.
I give money, and don't really care what the preacher does with it. I trust him with my soul, so I trust he'll do good with whatever money I can give him.
As for the givers, it's a topic that has nothing to do with them. We are to give for the teaching, and what's in our heart. We aren't supposed to care about how the money is spent. Otherwise, we aren't giving. We are investing, which isn't the same.
So many trust the Minister with their soul, but not their money.... So many trust him to preach the truth, which is necesssary for faith, but don't think he can manage money correctly. I really shows that people put more trust in mammon than they do in their souls, their preacher and God.
I give money, and don't really care what the preacher does with it. I trust him with my soul, so I trust he'll do good with whatever money I can give him.
Prentis
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[sup]9[/sup] Micah asked him, “Where are you from?”
“I’m a Levite from Bethlehem in Judah,” he said, “and I’m looking for a place to stay.”
[sup]10[/sup] Then Micah said to him, “Live with me and be my father and priest, and I’ll give you ten shekels[sup][d][/sup] of silver a year, your clothes and your food.” [sup]11[/sup] So the Levite agreed to live with him, and the young man became like one of his sons to him. [sup]12[/sup] Then Micah installed the Levite, and the young man became his priest and lived in his house. [sup]13[/sup] And Micah said, “Now I know that the LORD will be good to me, since this Levite has become my priest.”
Hmmm.... Good biblical backing? Or is there a lesson in the remainder of the text?
aspen
“"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few
Prentis
New Member
The question then becomes do we need ministers!
Don't get me wrong. We need leaders, people who work full time for the Lord, also. But a salary? Based on a worldly system? Makes no sense!
Rather the one who works full time for the Lord should have all his NEEDS provided by the brothers and sisters with him. Also, one should be called to this... Otherwise we should follow the example of such men as Paul, who made carpets to support himself.
The worldly system of salaries and positions is far different from the Lord's way of sharing everything among the brethren.
But communism is a failure apart from the direct coordination from Christ. It stands to reason, then, it should be avoided since it's track record is abysmal when man tries to direct an enterprise that clearly God is only qualified to deliver.
Sounds like whatever consulting adults agree on, that's ok!
Mic 3:9 Hear this, I pray you, ye heads of the house of Jacob, and princes of the house of Israel, that abhor judgment, and pervert all equity.
Mic 3:10 They build up Zion with blood, and Jerusalem with iniquity.
Mic 3:11 The heads thereof judge for reward, and the priests thereof teach for hire, and the prophets thereof divine for money: yet will they lean upon the LORD, and say, Is not the LORD among us? none evil can come upon us.
Mic 3:12 Therefore shall Zion for your sake be plowed as a field, and Jerusalem shall become heaps, and the mountain of the house as the high places of the forest.
tomwebster
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What kind of church? Big church, small church, how many on staff? What is the church governing structure? What is the pastor’s education level?
What about expense account, travelling bonuses, recruitment bonuses, car allowance, pension plan, sales perks and housing supplement?
If we only knew the pay rate for an apostle in Jesus' day we could pro-rate that into today's moolah!!!
How much did Paul get..what were his wages?
Should prosperity sales pastors get more money...maybe a percentage of the take?
aspen
“"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few
Why is it that some people believe that anything other than a top down hierarchical leadership model is communism? It is simply not true. The fact is communism has never existed at the national level in the history of the world. Ironically, it is the hierarchical dictator masquerading as a communist that people mistake as communism.
I don't particularly know of another way to interpret this passage:
I Timothy 5:17-18
Let the elders who rule well be considered worthy of double honor, especially those who labor in preaching and teaching. For the Scripture says, "You shall not muzzle an ox when it treads out the grain," and, "The laborer deserves his wages."
No, it's not spiritualized to mean something else. It means what it says, the laborer deserves his wages. Let's not try and create red herrings by taking a pastor's salary and turning it into pay to hear the Word of God. That's simply not the case. Most pastors do more in their job than you'll do in yours. (For most smaller churches, the Pastor does everything from cutting grass, to regulating the thermostat, to accounting stuff to preaching. It's the equivalent of a small business in essence.) The Word of God should be self-preached at all times and you should be hearing it somewhere else than just your church in the first place. In the second place, if one is appointed overseer then he and his family - which is so neglected by very many religious blowhards - have to be fed. The idea is that the pastor's needs are attended to so he can focus on the needs of others. Placing a pastor just above the poverty line makes him no holier than a pastor who makes a decent salary by worldly standards. That's simply a part of the false doctrine of the poverty gospel which is just as much trash as prosperity gospel.
This keep 'em poor attitude doesn't work, and it's frankly resulted in at least some of the problems we see with ministry burnout. At the end of the day, God has said he will provide, yes. However, I don't see the place in the Bible where God said that he would like us to sit down and wait for our daily allotment of food.
I Timothy 5:17-18
Let the elders who rule well be considered worthy of double honor, especially those who labor in preaching and teaching. For the Scripture says, "You shall not muzzle an ox when it treads out the grain," and, "The laborer deserves his wages."
No, it's not spiritualized to mean something else. It means what it says, the laborer deserves his wages. Let's not try and create red herrings by taking a pastor's salary and turning it into pay to hear the Word of God. That's simply not the case. Most pastors do more in their job than you'll do in yours. (For most smaller churches, the Pastor does everything from cutting grass, to regulating the thermostat, to accounting stuff to preaching. It's the equivalent of a small business in essence.) The Word of God should be self-preached at all times and you should be hearing it somewhere else than just your church in the first place. In the second place, if one is appointed overseer then he and his family - which is so neglected by very many religious blowhards - have to be fed. The idea is that the pastor's needs are attended to so he can focus on the needs of others. Placing a pastor just above the poverty line makes him no holier than a pastor who makes a decent salary by worldly standards. That's simply a part of the false doctrine of the poverty gospel which is just as much trash as prosperity gospel.
This keep 'em poor attitude doesn't work, and it's frankly resulted in at least some of the problems we see with ministry burnout. At the end of the day, God has said he will provide, yes. However, I don't see the place in the Bible where God said that he would like us to sit down and wait for our daily allotment of food.
Prentis
New Member
No ism is ever a good thing. But that is completely different from community.
In community, all the needs are met, and one is not 'kept poor'... Rather his needs are met AND he works full time for the Lord, he is there for the brothers... Most institutions just open 2 hours a day, once a week... Some a little more. Nothing compared to the full time life we are called to in God, as a body.
Well Prentis makes a good point here - community and communism are not one in the same. I'll refrain from going deeper so that this discussion won't get off-topic, but if someone would like to start a thread about that particular topic it'd be a good one I think.
I just wanted to add that I am not a preacher or nor do I stand to gain anything from my previous post. In fact, I was formerly more on the side of "why should a preacher get paid so much?" until God opened my eyes to that obvious scripture and with my own experiences. I've grown to feel quite strongly about this particular issue.
I just wanted to add that I am not a preacher or nor do I stand to gain anything from my previous post. In fact, I was formerly more on the side of "why should a preacher get paid so much?" until God opened my eyes to that obvious scripture and with my own experiences. I've grown to feel quite strongly about this particular issue.
tomwebster
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Are you talking about a church institution here? I doubt it. You might only see things happening a couple hours a week because you are not their more than a couple hours a week. Congregations could not afford to use their physical plant (the meeting space) only several hours a week and have it closed the rest of the time. I expect large portions of the space is used for something throughout the week.
Hammer, you mentioned "why should a preacher get paid so much?" To that I would ask, what is too much and what do people think a pastor does when he/she is not preaching on Sunday? And again that depends on the size of the church and the number of staff.
I pastored several smaller churches, membership 60 to 90, average Sunday attendance, 75. We had a Sunday morning worship service, Sunday school, Sunday evening service, midweek Bible study, Confirmation class, a women’s group, a men’s group, a teenagers group, a children’s group (something like AWANA), choirs practice and various weekly board meetings. As pastor I was expected to attend all of them and speak at some of them. I was also expected to visit each member family several times a year, and call on them whenever they were sick and in the hospital. I was on-call 24-7. That is all part of being a church pastor, and that does not include community involvement, and Denominational involvement.
How much preparation time is needed to preach a new, 25 minutes sermon every Sunday and the several shorter Bible studies several times a week?
tomwebster
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Are you responsible for counting the heads? Is the evangelist speaking to large groups like Bill Graham, or one on one? Is the prophet a man or woman of God or are they like one of the impostures that come on this board quite often?
If they are true prophets of God they will be well cared for by God. Most "prophets" these days are not true prophets and need to scratch out a living any way they can.
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