How Is a Pastor's Salary Determined ?
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aspen
“"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few
It is simply not true. Ministers who receive seminary training are no more likely to loss their relationship with Christ than some one with no training. You have a pretty bleak view of education! Are you afraid that too much study about Jesus is going to disprove Christianity?
Trusting in men has never equalled trusting God. I have a bleak view of men's credentials. Who persecutes the saints...the educated religious clerics or the simple brethren?
Prentis
New Member
Trained in spiritual things to be a conduct of God's Spirit and truth is completely different from being trained to memorize verses and give carnal meaning to them, to make some 'message'.
One gives life, because the Spirit of the living God flows in it, the other is just dead religion, which is what is taught in seminaries.
Christ trains men by experience, they actually partake in spiritual things and learn to handle it.
One gives life, because the Spirit of the living God flows in it, the other is just dead religion, which is what is taught in seminaries.
Christ trains men by experience, they actually partake in spiritual things and learn to handle it.
aspen
“"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few
Seminary and Christian are not mutually exclusive concepts, gentleman. I have a dim view of equating genuine Christianity with anti-intellectualism.
Prentis
New Member
It is not highly intellectual to be indoctrinated and trained to indoctrinate... It is simply highly practical, from a worldly point of view.
aspen
“"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few
Prentis
New Member
It is not that it is practical to be uneducated, it is that the man who already thinks he knows, or already thinks he is walking in the light when he isn't cannot be taught to walk in the light. He is Laodicean... Because he is sure that he is rich, sees no need for discipleship.
What God needs is a man who is looking for the life, and recognizes the life... That is, the life of God in his people. Seminary teaches men to be professional... The very thing we must lose! Christianity is meant to be a life, not a profession.
A life for which we leave everything else behind...
We are being led by what...intellectual stimuli or the Spirit???
We must become as fools in order to be wise. Have you perhaps missed the nature of the kingdom of God and confused this with worldly achievement?
An eternally wise person counts ALL THINGS as dung in order to cleave to Christ and HIS power.
Just remember that Jesus showed the greatest contempt for what we hold so dear. He threw over the MONEY changers tables.
Woe to those who see the way of Christ as a career and a means of making money!
tomwebster
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What’s the matter p. won’t they let you into college? It seems that usually those that are the most against education are those that are not educated.
Prentis
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Your taunting merely reveals you don't understand what is being said.
I have no desire to go to college. Yeah, maybe if I applied, I wouldn't make it in... I don't know. If that's the case, it could actually run to my advantage (I'm talking like a man), God takes the foolish things to upset the wise!
Paul said he came in power, NOT in wise words well put together. The standard today is the very opposite. If you can talk smooth and well, you'd make a good pastor! But the devil himself has the slickest of tongues...
On the other hand, Paul was known for being a terrible speaker... Yet he flipped the gentile world upside down... because he operated in the power of Christ. Give God two men operating in this power and he can turn the world over, give the devil a thousand pastors right out of seminary and he can spell the end of the life of Christ in that which calls itself the church. And the beginning of money changing!
What matters is what power we are operating in, and that we are trained to handle this power in humility and righteousness always. That is what a disciple of Christ is here to learn! The rest is meaningless...
tomwebster
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Paul was a highly educated man.
Act 22:3 I am verily a man which am a Jew, born in Tarsus, a city in Cilicia, yet brought up in this city at the feet of Gamaliel, and taught according to the perfect manner of the law of the fathers, and was zealous toward God, as ye all are this day.
Once again, p, you have no idea what you are talking about. But you just continue on your path.
Holy Carp! All this false christian pietism over how a pastor should be paid??? Do not muzzle the ox while it is treading out the grain for goodness sakes!
tim_from_pa
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Not to sound overly simplistic, but I like Larry Burkett's stance on a minister's "salary". If everyone tithed, a minister could be supported by only 10 people and he would obtain the average salary of those ten people. Fair enough. When we consider that 12 tribes (of the 13 tribes of Israel) paid tenths to one tribe, they got 1.2 times what the average tribe harvested provided we consider each one averaging equal. Then in turn the Levites gave 10% to the High Priest which means the tribe of Levi had 1.1 times what the average tribe had (each tribe would have .9), about equal. Of course I realize the population of each tribe varied so I don't want to say that each Levite household made exactly that, but I'm talking averages.
Then the rest of the offerings can go into church and mission needs.
There are those who say that the tithe is "done away with". Good! Now you have permission to give more. Those of the Spirit are freer than those of the Law. But more times than not, the "done away with" clause is just an excuse to act niggardly about giving. I don't consider such a true, Spirit-filled Christian at all if at least 10% is too tough to handle unless one is under very, very trying times, and even then one can give what they can manage.
Then the rest of the offerings can go into church and mission needs.
There are those who say that the tithe is "done away with". Good! Now you have permission to give more. Those of the Spirit are freer than those of the Law. But more times than not, the "done away with" clause is just an excuse to act niggardly about giving. I don't consider such a true, Spirit-filled Christian at all if at least 10% is too tough to handle unless one is under very, very trying times, and even then one can give what they can manage.
FHII
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My thoughts on seminaries:
I've never been to one, so it would be pretty unfair for me to attack one. I have read their curriculum and looked at their code of conduct, their beliefs and various other information that is provided by websites, and overall I'm not impressed. But to base an opinion on them merely on that without attending a class seems wrong to me.
My opinion on what should be done if you want to be a man of the cloth (as the saying goes) is study under one. That seems to be what Timothy did, as well as the apostles (they studied under Christ... And the one who didn't was the one who actually had a formal education!). I'm not against seminaries, though I suspect they aren't the way I would go.
As for tithing and giving and how much a preacher should make... I've stated my case in previous posts. I think its wrong to be bound by a board and any limitation put on him. All the money is his according to the Word of God. So is the responsibility of using it. That however, is none of the giver's concern.
I've never been to one, so it would be pretty unfair for me to attack one. I have read their curriculum and looked at their code of conduct, their beliefs and various other information that is provided by websites, and overall I'm not impressed. But to base an opinion on them merely on that without attending a class seems wrong to me.
My opinion on what should be done if you want to be a man of the cloth (as the saying goes) is study under one. That seems to be what Timothy did, as well as the apostles (they studied under Christ... And the one who didn't was the one who actually had a formal education!). I'm not against seminaries, though I suspect they aren't the way I would go.
As for tithing and giving and how much a preacher should make... I've stated my case in previous posts. I think its wrong to be bound by a board and any limitation put on him. All the money is his according to the Word of God. So is the responsibility of using it. That however, is none of the giver's concern.
Look, it's gross generalization to go one way or the other.
Simply put, everyone who wants to preach is not exactly qualified to do so. Additionally, going to seminary does not mean that every graduate is called by God. I've seen and heard excellent preachers talking about Jesus who have gone to seminary as well as others that have not. School or lack of school does not determine a person's spirituality.
As for the what the Bible says:
Acts 4:13
Now when they saw the boldness of Peter and John, and perceived that they were uneducated, common men, they were astonished. And they recognized that they had been with Jesus.
Instead of attempting to apply this uneducated line to ALL disciples of Jesus - and more on the word disciple in a moment - let's stick with the subject of this verse. Peter and John were unlearned, normal guys like most of us here, yes. However, this verse clearly speaks about Peter and John. Not to be overly sarcastic - but that's two out of twelve. Luke was a doctor and Paul was a scholar/religious hit man. Paul went through the seminary of his day, studying under a premier scholar of the time period. He was at the Jewish Harvard. Paul was a learned man. He continued to draw on that education as he learned about Jesus. Yes it took Jesus striking him down to place him on the right path, but Jesus didn't say "Nope, Saul, you won't do because you went through Jewish seminary!"
Additionally, what does the word disciple mean? They were disciples of Christ - they didn't need seminary because they had the perfect seminary right there with them. We don't have Jesus walking with us, and although I'm sure some will sit here and assert that Jesus tells them how to do everything from what to eat for breakfast to what time to go to bed, we don't have someone who is physically here with us in this role. We have a comforter who will use us as mouthpieces as He deems fit, but that doesn't mean every word that proceeds from your mouth or my mouth is the Word of God equal to the Bible! You can rest assured that the Holy Spirit can use a learned person from Harvard just as easily as He can use Joe Shmo from small town South Carolina.
I Timothy 5:17-18
Let the elders who rule well be considered worthy of double honor, especially those who labor in preaching and teaching. For the Scripture says, "You shall not muzzle an ox when it treads out the grain," and, "The laborer deserves his wages."
I'd like to issue a challenge here and see someone with the "seminary people suck" argument to dispute the above Scripture. I mean, following the subject of the passage, it's pretty clear. Let the elders whole rule well be considered, especially those who labor in preaching and teaching. (Just in case we're unclear on who this is talking about.) You don't muzzle an ox when it treads grain to use a metaphor, and then just in case, in plain statement, the laborer deserves his wages.
Simply put, everyone who wants to preach is not exactly qualified to do so. Additionally, going to seminary does not mean that every graduate is called by God. I've seen and heard excellent preachers talking about Jesus who have gone to seminary as well as others that have not. School or lack of school does not determine a person's spirituality.
As for the what the Bible says:
Acts 4:13
Now when they saw the boldness of Peter and John, and perceived that they were uneducated, common men, they were astonished. And they recognized that they had been with Jesus.
Instead of attempting to apply this uneducated line to ALL disciples of Jesus - and more on the word disciple in a moment - let's stick with the subject of this verse. Peter and John were unlearned, normal guys like most of us here, yes. However, this verse clearly speaks about Peter and John. Not to be overly sarcastic - but that's two out of twelve. Luke was a doctor and Paul was a scholar/religious hit man. Paul went through the seminary of his day, studying under a premier scholar of the time period. He was at the Jewish Harvard. Paul was a learned man. He continued to draw on that education as he learned about Jesus. Yes it took Jesus striking him down to place him on the right path, but Jesus didn't say "Nope, Saul, you won't do because you went through Jewish seminary!"
Additionally, what does the word disciple mean? They were disciples of Christ - they didn't need seminary because they had the perfect seminary right there with them. We don't have Jesus walking with us, and although I'm sure some will sit here and assert that Jesus tells them how to do everything from what to eat for breakfast to what time to go to bed, we don't have someone who is physically here with us in this role. We have a comforter who will use us as mouthpieces as He deems fit, but that doesn't mean every word that proceeds from your mouth or my mouth is the Word of God equal to the Bible! You can rest assured that the Holy Spirit can use a learned person from Harvard just as easily as He can use Joe Shmo from small town South Carolina.
I Timothy 5:17-18
Let the elders who rule well be considered worthy of double honor, especially those who labor in preaching and teaching. For the Scripture says, "You shall not muzzle an ox when it treads out the grain," and, "The laborer deserves his wages."
I'd like to issue a challenge here and see someone with the "seminary people suck" argument to dispute the above Scripture. I mean, following the subject of the passage, it's pretty clear. Let the elders whole rule well be considered, especially those who labor in preaching and teaching. (Just in case we're unclear on who this is talking about.) You don't muzzle an ox when it treads grain to use a metaphor, and then just in case, in plain statement, the laborer deserves his wages.
Prentis
New Member
Yeah... And when he was converted he had to relearn everything and counted all those things as dung!
Good point actually... This man who was highly educated in the scriptures was one of the greatest single persecutors of the church of Christ!
aspen
“"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few
tomwebster
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Paul did not have to relearn the Scripture he had studied for years. He didn't need to relearn Hebrew or Greek. He continued to use all of that knowledge. He just knew his relationship with Christ was worth much more.
p, how many churches have you visited in the past, how many pastors have you met and talked with in person? Or have you just heard a few TV preachers and assume that church pastors are like them? Do you think you could run a church p, and for how long? Do you think anyone would attend your church, p? If a church of say 100 to 200 members had an opening for a pastor would they hire you or someone with a seminary education?
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