How the religious make a mockery of God

[aspen]

Does anyone else find it odd that Evangelicals, Fundamentalists and other Protestants often have a common detest of organized religion? Have you ever considered why this is? Where it started?

Do you all understand that the Reformers had to attack religious institutions in order to justify breaking away from Catholicism? Of course, it has come back to haunt mainline Protestant Churches because all their members are leaving.

As long as you guys understand the origins. One more thing - even the Reformers had a basic respect for church authority - it seems that has been tossed out the window completely today.

Don't get me started on the origins of relavitism!

 

[bbyrd009]

Doesn't it seem strange to you that God directly contradicts what you are saying?

no, because truth can seem contradictory to us, and you know i can also quote "Jew or Gentile is irrelevant," just as "male or female is irrelevant." So you can either just ignore those verses, or understand the apparent contradiction, right. Those are all of the choices that i can see

 

[bbyrd009]

Do you all understand that the Reformers had to attack religious institutions in order to justify breaking away from Catholicism?

ha well let's admit the institutions were ripe for conquest lol

Of course, it has come back to haunt mainline Protestant Churches because all their members are leaving.

which is i guess perceived as a tragedy; but imo it is likely causing a revival in the Church--the one without walls anyway

 

[bbyrd009]

You can imagine it to say whatever you want it to.

surely it might be realized in other ways too, but a point might be to recognize the application to real life situations that we might find ourselves in. It might appear that i am trying to interpret a v by postulating a relevant situation, but really what happened is a situation, back 30 years ago or whatever, brought to mind the verse

 

[Helen]

Does anyone else find it odd that Evangelicals, Fundamentalists and other Protestants often have a common detest of organized religion? Have you ever considered why this is? Where it started?

Do you all understand that the Reformers had to attack religious institutions in order to justify breaking away from Catholicism? Of course, it has come back to haunt mainline Protestant Churches because all their members are leaving.

As long as you guys understand the origins. One more thing - even the Reformers had a basic respect for church authority - it seems that has been tossed out the window completely today.

Don't get me started on the origins of relavitism!

I hate organized religion ...and as I read the NT so did Jesus!!
Why? Because those that 'called the shots' lauded it over the peons and set themselves up as the ultimate wisdom.
What is wrong with that? IT TAKES THE PLACE of the Voice of the Holy Spirit of God, in a believers life. The Way was opened the veil was ripped, we have a place of boldness to enter into the Holy of Holies and commune with Father God.

Organized religion stifles that, it brings in it's own 'rules', and tries to bring the believer that is free, back into some bondage.

I am strongly against it. Maybe you can tell that!

 

[lforrest]

I hate organized religion ...and as I read the NT so did Jesus!!
Why? Because those that 'called the shots' lauded it over the peons and set themselves up as the ultimate wisdom.
What is wrong with that? IT TAKES THE PLACE of the Voice of the Holy Spirit of God, in a believers life. The Way was opened the veil was ripped, we have a place of boldness to enter into the Holy of Holies and commune with Father God.

Organized religion stifles that, it brings in it's own 'rules', and tries to bring the believer that is free, back into some bondage.

I am strongly against it. Maybe you can tell that!

How far should that freedom go? I think that freedom should be to hold non-essential doctrines and to serve God in the way you see fit.

The top down organization of the RCC, as oppressive as that can be I find more palatable than a democratic one. It disgusts me to see parliamentary procedures in a church. What business do Christians have using worldly methods of keeping order?

 

[Helen]

@lforrest I think freedom should be that each Christian is free to hear form the Lord for themselves. Not be told what to believe and what not to believe ...but to seriously get before God and listen, in concerning their lives and what they hold as doctrine.
But, Will they? do they? ...not often ......
Most people would much rather be told what God is saying to them and for them, every week from a pulpit. They like, its easier for them, it cost them nothing...especially Time. These are the ones Paul mentioned about 'moving on from the milk of the word to the meat.'
We get out of our relationship with God, the same energy that we put into it.

Not saying that many sweet 'pew warmers' are not great prayer warriors and intercessors before the Lord. These days I think they are fewer and far between.
I hope I am wrong.

 

[Dcopymope]

How far should that freedom go? I think that freedom should be to hold non-essential doctrines and to serve God in the way you see fit.

The top down organization of the RCC, as oppressive as that can be I find more palatable than a democratic one. It disgusts me to see parliamentary procedures in a church. What business do Christians have using worldly methods of keeping order?

Well, I'm with you on the parliamentary/democratic order in which churches are run. If we want to get down to brass tacks, when Jesus Christ returns there will be no democratically run government as we see them today. When it says he will rule the nations with a rod of iron, it means that the way things will be won't be up for debate or a vote. He is coming back to set things in order, the way God wants it and not how "the people", or "the elite" rich and influential want it. God will be the absolute head when it comes down to it, and it is stated to be no different within the church. How the church is supposed to be run is technically supposed to be decided only among its 'elders' and the pastor, not the entire church. Its not a 'democratic' process in the traditional sense.

 

[amadeus]

Romans 1:16For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

Doesn't it seem strange to you that God directly contradicts what you are saying?

The message did come to the Jew first, but in the end of the matter:

"For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him." Rom 10:12

"There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus." Gal 3:28

"Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all." Col 3:11

And then consider the import of this verse:

"And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved." Matt 10:22

Who is included in the "he" of Jesus' words? It is only the Jews? Jesus came to the Jews, but more than once we see that he would not exclude a gentile who pressed in by faith...

"When Jesus heard it, he marvelled, and said to them that followed, Verily I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel." Matt 8:10 He was speaking about the faith of a non-Jewish Roman soldier.

Did he have a message only for the Jews?

"Then saith the woman of Samaria unto him, How is it that thou, being a Jew, askest drink of me, which am a woman of Samaria? for the Jews have no dealings with the Samaritans.
Jesus answered and said unto her, If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water." John 4:9-10

Was he not available to anyone who had faith?

"But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it to dogs.
And she said, Truth, Lord: yet the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters' table.
Then Jesus answered and said unto her, O woman, great is thy faith: be it unto thee even as thou wilt. And her daughter was made whole from that very hour." Matt 15:26-28

 

[KBCid]

The message did come to the Jew first, but in the end of the matter: "For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him." Rom 10:12

There is of course no difference once a person is accepted but that was not the point of that post. God has organized everything and salvation came to the Jews first which is why Christ told the disciples not to go to the gentiles at first and only after he covered all the Jewish cities did he then send the 11 to take the word to the world thus the initial message was for the Jews and the works of the law referenced in that message were for those contained in the mosaic law which defined how they were to deal with sins committed.
Ultimately the point being made is that obeying Gods commandments has never been a work of the law. To love God in your mind and physical actions as well as treating others as you would yourself can never be a work of the law since as I already pointed out the message given was for the Jews and the works of the law being referenced were in regard to how the Jews were to deal with sins by the law.
So, for those who "think" that performing Gods commandments both mentally and physically is a work of the law and we have no need to obey because they think they are automatically saved by grace once they believe Christ is real are quite wrong.

Matt 5:16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.

48Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

 

[KBCid]

no, because truth can seem contradictory to us, and you know i can also quote "Jew or Gentile is irrelevant," just as "male or female is irrelevant." So you can either just ignore those verses, or understand the apparent contradiction, right. Those are all of the choices that i can see

Is a truth relevant to you if it was not meant for you? If a truth was intended for a Jew and you take it as directly relevant to you wouldn't that be an error in understanding and how you react to it?

 

[mjrhealth]

Does anyone else find it odd that Evangelicals, Fundamentalists and other Protestants often have a common detest of organized religion? Have you ever considered why this is? Where it started?

Do you all understand that the Reformers had to attack religious institutions in order to justify breaking away from Catholicism? Of course, it has come back to haunt mainline Protestant Churches because all their members are leaving.

As long as you guys understand the origins. One more thing - even the Reformers had a basic respect for church authority - it seems that has been tossed out the window completely today.

And so few have any respect for Christ, teh one they supposedly call "Lord". What was it Jesus said,

Mat 20:24 And when the ten heard it, they were moved with indignation against the two brethren.
Mat 20:25 But Jesus called them unto him, and said, Ye know that the princes of the Gentiles exercise dominion over them, and they that are great exercise authority upon them.
Mat 20:26 But it shall not be so among you: but whosoever will be great among you, let him be your minister;

Yet here we see, you demanding just what Jesus said not to do. Everyone wants to run to men to have them Lord it over them so they can show "men" that they are doing something. So few will go to Christ and have Him be Lord over them because to do that requires faith and means very likely that you will be rejected by men, and to many would rather please men than God. And just as was spoken in teh OT

1Sa_8:7 And the LORD said unto Samuel, Hearken unto the voice of the people in all that they say unto thee: for they have not rejected thee, but they have rejected me, that I should not reign over them.

It is still teh same today, even after all that Christ did for mankind, as if He didnt do enough.

 

[bbyrd009]

Is a truth relevant to you if it was not meant for you? If a truth was intended for a Jew and you take it as directly relevant to you wouldn't that be an error in understanding and how you react to it?

yes, but that is a long way from tossing James from Scripture, imo, or believing that it is only for Jews. I mean bam if you don't think James applies to you then don't read it, but i have seen no passage that makes James irrelevant to me yet--although i haven't really been following that convo

 

[bbyrd009]

So, for those who "think" that performing Gods commandments both mentally and physically is a work of the law and we have no need to obey because they think they are automatically saved by grace once they believe Christ is real are quite wrong.

i agree with this myself, not sure why it causes you to discount James though

 

[KBCid]

i agree with this myself, not sure why it causes you to discount James though

I do not discount James or any other scripture. It is all about dividing the word correctly and some scriptures were directly given in reference to those who had been living under the mosaic laws so that they may gain understanding in order to convert to the new intent of the commandments given by Christ.
James was making it clear to the Jews who had converted to the new covenant from the old that the new is an expansion of meaning that will still have works and those works will be in conjunction with the new faith in Christ as the one and only sacrifice to deal with their sins thus eliminating the need for observing the OT laws that were only intended as a temporary covering.
Does James message apply to gentiles? of course it does since the majority of his message deals with the new covenant and the gentiles were being added to it. The difference between Jew and gentile was in the following of the OT mosaic laws which the Jews had been living by and the gentiles had not.
Remember the circumcision that the converted Jews were trying to enforce onto the gentiles? This was another OT law / work that was no longer in effect and they the converted Jews were given the understanding that it no longer applied thus, that message / understanding was not given to the gentiles.
So, one must divide correctly among all the scriptures that which applies to them and that which does not.

 

[amadeus]

Matt 5:16 Let your light so light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.

48Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Two very good verses. I agree with God's intent in both of them.

 

[KBCid]

And so few have any respect for Christ, the one they supposedly call "Lord"...
Everyone wants to run to men to have them Lord it over them so they can show "men" that they are doing something.
1Sa_8:7 And the LORD said unto Samuel, Hearken unto the voice of the people in all that they say unto thee: for they have not rejected thee, but they have rejected me, that I should not reign over them.
It is still the same today, even after all that Christ did for mankind, as if He didnt do enough.

You have spoken correctly in this matter.
what need does any man have for a vicar of Christ when in all actual reality we have Christ himself in spirit and flesh as our one and only mediator between us and the Father just as it is written;

1 Tim 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus

1 John 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: 2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world. 3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. 4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

Those who seek unto men to find forgiveness of trespasses against God and to find salvation will find neither there.
Those who tell others to seek the important parts of the kingdom from other men are those who do not know Christ nor obey his commandments.

 

[KBCid]

The top down organization of the RCC, as oppressive as that can be I find more palatable than a democratic one. It disgusts me to see parliamentary procedures in a church. What business do Christians have using worldly methods of keeping order?

The better question would be;
"what business do professing Christians have for giving any honor to any man asserting himself to be the vicar of Christ"?

it should also be asked why the "faithful" in that religion tithe their 10% to the richest church in the world when by rights it should be given to the poor.

 

[Truth]

The better question would be;
"what business do professing Christians have for giving any honor to any man asserting himself to be the vicar of Christ"?

it should also be asked why the "faithful" in that religion tithe their 10% to the richest church in the world when by rights it should be given to the poor.

I can only agree with said statements! I would like any one here to show me where it is written, that we should pay Tithes to any organization so that they can build a Crystal Cathedral, or any such Fabulous Church building, to the Glory of God & Savior!! It has always been a grinding in my gut that the Church will use the Old Testament to bring out the Tithes, You Know, where it is written, bring up your gifts to the Storehouse, like there was a building on the Temple Mount that had a sign on it, THE STOREHOUSE. tithes were and will always be used to help the Widows, the Orphans, the Poor, and the Levite's which had no Inheritance, most of these Ministers live far better that their Flock. Yes a Minister is worthy of His Meat, and blessed are the feet of those that preach the Gospel, but to live better than those you Shepherd, NO, Our Savior had no place to lay His Head, I can't find anywhere in the Scriptures that say that the Apostles became well off! It is easy to give your hard earned money to someone else and If they don't use it right, it is on them, No! you need to find were the need is and take part in what we were instructed to do. And try to do it in Secret, you will be as blessed as those you are trying to bless. If you see people that are down on their luck, so to speak! do not judge them, like do they drink it away, or drug it away, try to give food if you can or what ever, and if they do waste it, you have tried! and now it is on them, let God measure them!

 

[Truth]

And so few have any respect for Christ, teh one they supposedly call "Lord". What was it Jesus said,

Mat 20:24 And when the ten heard it, they were moved with indignation against the two brethren.
Mat 20:25 But Jesus called them unto him, and said, Ye know that the princes of the Gentiles exercise dominion over them, and they that are great exercise authority upon them.
Mat 20:26 But it shall not be so among you: but whosoever will be great among you, let him be your minister;

Yet here we see, you demanding just what Jesus said not to do. Everyone wants to run to men to have them Lord it over them so they can show "men" that they are doing something. So few will go to Christ and have Him be Lord over them because to do that requires faith and means very likely that you will be rejected by men, and to many would rather please men than God. And just as was spoken in teh OT

1Sa_8:7 And the LORD said unto Samuel, Hearken unto the voice of the people in all that they say unto thee: for they have not rejected thee, but they have rejected me, that I should not reign over them.

It is still teh same today, even after all that Christ did for mankind, as if He didnt do enough.

EXACTLY, I believe it is Nico-layity in my opinion// Conquer of the People