I ask the Trinitarians and the Jehovah's Witnesses...

[Cooper]

You're talking nonsense! You said it yourself, '...God the Son came as a babe...'. What in the world is that supposed to mean??? It seems that you don't understand context very well, for even you said 'increasing'. Perfection cannot be improved upon and it lacks nothing, there is no room to increase in any manner. You seriously cannot keep your story straight. When are you trinitarians going to see the diabolical influence behind this inane nonsense, which turns rather competent men into babbling idiots.
Christ increased in wisdom and stature with men, therefore he did not come out of the womb perfect, as absolutely no creature does.

Hebrews 5:7-10
5:7. In the days of His flesh, He offered up both prayers and supplications with loud crying and tears to the One able to save Him from death, and He was heard because of His piety. 8. Although He was a Son, He learned obedience from the things which He suffered. 9. And having been made perfect, He became to all those who obey Him the source of eternal salvation, 10. being designated by God as a high priest according to the order of Melchizedek.

Jesus Christ is the perfect man, otherwise God is imperfect. “He is the image of the invisible God, the First-born of all creation. For all things were created in Him, the things in the heavens, and the things on the earth, the visible and the invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers, all things were created through Him and for Him. And He is before all things, and by Him all things consist. (Colossians 1:15-17 MKJV)

Hebrews 5:9 is a reference to Christ's finished work on the cross. His work was perfected when he died and rose again. Luke 13:32 And He said to them, "Go, tell that fox, 'Behold, I cast out demons and perform cures today and tomorrow, and the third day I shall be perfected.'

“And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him” (Heb 5:9)

The day of Christ’s perfection, after he took our sins upon himself, was when his work was completed and all was fulfilled. Our sins were washed away and blotted out, FINISHED gone, never to be remembered against us any more :- when Jesus had received the sour wine on the cross, He said, "It is finished!" meaning, I have done it all.

The finished work of salvation was perfect. It was nothing to do with his childhood, but rather with the work he had come to do, so that we might have his perfect gift of salvation.
.

 

[DNB]

Jesus Christ is the perfect man, otherwise God is imperfect. “He is the image of the invisible God, the First-born of all creation. For all things were created in Him, the things in the heavens, and the things on the earth, the visible and the invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers, all things were created through Him and for Him. And He is before all things, and by Him all things consist. (Colossians 1:15-17 MKJV)

Hebrews 5:9 is a reference to Christ's finished work on the cross. His work was perfected when he died and rose again. Luke 13:32 And He said to them, "Go, tell that fox, 'Behold, I cast out demons and perform cures today and tomorrow, and the third day I shall be perfected.'

“And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him” (Heb 5:9)

The day of Christ’s perfection, after he took our sins upon himself, was when his work was completed and all was fulfilled. Our sins were washed away and blotted out, FINISHED gone, never to be remembered against us any more :- when Jesus had received the sour wine on the cross, He said, "It is finished!" meaning, I have done it all.

The finished work of salvation was perfect. It was nothing to do with his childhood, but rather with the work he had come to do, so that we might have his perfect gift of salvation.
.

I believe that when he obeyed God, even unto death, is when he became perfect. In other words, there was still time for him to deny his mission mandated by God ('...let this cup pass before me...'). But, just before his moment of death he knew that he had fulfilled his mission, and thus, attained to perfection. That is, became the perfect sacrifice in order to allow God to raise him from the dead. Therefore, God's approval and acceptance of Jesus' sacrifice, was evident when He raised Christ three days later.
It was his love for God, devotion and obedience to Him, which made him perfect. Otherwise man's Atonement has no merit if first, the Law was not fulfilled by a man, and then, perfection was not reached by a man.
But, on the contrary, Christ was 200% man, therefore God could exalt him to His right-hand side (which is absurd if Jesus is already God), and man now has hope that he too will raise from the dead on Judgement Day, as an authentic peer was equally raised.

 

[Cooper]

I believe that when he obeyed God, even unto death, is when he became perfect. In other words, there was still time for him to deny his mission mandated by God ('...let this cup pass before me...'). But, just before his moment of death he knew that he had fulfilled his mission, and thus, attained to perfection. That is, became the perfect sacrifice in order to allow God to raise him from the dead. Therefore, God's approval and acceptance of Jesus' sacrifice, was evident when He raised Christ three days later.
It was his love for God, devotion and obedience to Him, which made him perfect. Otherwise man's Atonement has no merit if first, the Law was not fulfilled by a man, and then, perfection was not reached by a man.
But, on the contrary, Christ was 200% man, therefore God could exalt him to His right-hand side (which is absurd if Jesus is already God), and man now has hope that he too will raise from the dead on Judgement Day, as an authentic peer was equally raised.

I'm sorry, but it isn't about the perfection of Jesus the man, we know he had his human side, but in spirit he was always perfect and sinless. He needed to be, for only the perfect God can wipe away the record of our sin, blotting it out completely, and when that was done, the work Jesus did, was finished. Perfect cannot be improved upon, therefore the work he did on the cross was finished, done and accomplished. He did everything he came to do.
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[Davy]

On the contrary. One of the over-arching principle of the OT, was God's abandonment of His chosen people. Only a blind man would say otherwise. Between the prevalent use of theophory throughout the Bible, and the predominant theme of Israel's rebellion and God's rejection of them, Emmanuel can only mean one thing - Contrary to what the current history appeared to reveal, God was about to fulfill His Davidic promise through the line of Jesse - not the lineage of divinity (as if there were actually such a thing).

Nice try, but you cannot change the meaning of Christ's title of "Immanuel" in Isaiah 7, which means 'with us is God'. The KJV Matthew 1:23 definition is correct per many, many other Bible Scriptures which declares Jesus of Nazareth as God. To deny the meaning of Immanuel is to deny also all those other Scripture proofs, like the following one...


Apostle John speaking of Jesus of Nazareth The Christ...

Rev 1:5-8
5 And from Jesus Christ, Who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto Him That loved us, and washed us from our sins in His own blood,
6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and His Father; to Him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.
7 Behold, He cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see Him, and they also which pierced Him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of Him. Even so, Amen.
8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, Which is, and Which was, and Which is to come, the Almighty.
KJV

Rev 22:13-16
13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
16 I Jesus have sent Mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.
KJV

So it's silly to even listen to someone like you, as what you speak doesn't align with God's written Word.

 

[Davy]

I believe that when he obeyed God, even unto death, is when he became perfect.
....

That is just pure silliness. God doesn't have to become perfect. He already is, even born as Jesus of Nazareth, because His Spirit inside His flesh was NOT also flesh!

Jews just cannot understand the difference between the heavenly dimension of spirit vs. this earthly dimension. They think one's soul/spirit is made up from the earth and is part of their flesh! What delusion!

Even Nicodemus, a Pharisee and ruler of the Jews, couldn't understand this simple matter, even though Jesus made it very plain...

John 3:3-6
3 Jesus answered and said unto him, "Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."
4 Nicodemus saith unto Him, "How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?"
5 Jesus answered, "Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit."
KJV

Thusly, today still, the Jews are blinded by God on that point.

Jesus was fully God when born in woman's womb, meaning His Spirit is not what increased in wisdom and stature per Luke 2:52. It was His maturing from a child to a man, that's what Luke meant.

It's even funny for one to think that The Spirit of God has to mature. That kind of tom foolery idea only comes from disbelief that Jesus was born fully God, and fully man.

 

[Davy]

I'm sorry, but it isn't about the perfection of Jesus the man, we know he had his human side, but in spirit he was always perfect and sinless. He needed to be, for only the perfect God can wipe away the record of our sin, blotting it out completely, and when that was done, the work Jesus did, was finished. Perfect cannot be improved upon, therefore the work he did on the cross was finished, done and accomplished. He did everything he came to do.
.

And that is exactly the point God's Word makes in more than one Scripture, the fact that ONLY God could be born in the flesh like us and be totally without sin.

Like Jesus said to the blind Pharisees, 'who convicts Him of sin'?

John 8:46-47
46 Which of you convinceth Me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe Me?
47 He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.
KJV

2 Cor 5:21
21 For He hath made Him to be sin for us, Who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in Him.
KJV

Heb 4:15
15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.
KJV

Heb 7:26
26 For such an high priest became us, Who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens;
KJV

1 Peter 2:21-22
21 For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow His steps:
22 Who did no sin, neither was guile found in His mouth:
KJV

1 John 3:5
5 And ye know that He was manifested to take away our sins; and in Him is no sin.
KJV

 

[DNB]

I'm sorry, but it isn't about the perfection of Jesus the man, we know he had his human side, but in spirit he was always perfect and sinless. He needed to be, for only the perfect God can wipe away the record of our sin, blotting it out completely, and when that was done, the work Jesus did, was finished. Perfect cannot be improved upon, therefore the work he did on the cross was finished, done and accomplished. He did everything he came to do.
.

Only a perfect man, according to the Law, can abrogate the Law. This is what God demanded. As He told Abraham, if I find a minimal of ten righteous men in Sodom, I will refrain from destroying the entire city, He did the same for the world in Christ. That is, if He can find at least 1 man to perfectly fulfill the Law, he will exonerate all men on Christ's behalf.
You cannot find a single verse Scripture that supports your proposition that only God can redeem man. Which, is offensively absurd to think that this is the judicial soundness of God's Atonement. God does not make a sacrifice to Himself, and especially, a sacrifice of Himself, to Himself.

 

[DNB]

Nice try, but you cannot change the meaning of Christ's title of "Immanuel" in Isaiah 7, which means 'with us is God'. The KJV Matthew 1:23 definition is correct per many, many other Bible Scriptures which declares Jesus of Nazareth as God. To deny the meaning of Immanuel is to deny also all those other Scripture proofs, like the following one...


Apostle John speaking of Jesus of Nazareth The Christ...

Rev 1:5-8
5 And from Jesus Christ, Who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto Him That loved us, and washed us from our sins in His own blood,
6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and His Father; to Him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.
7 Behold, He cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see Him, and they also which pierced Him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of Him. Even so, Amen.
8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, Which is, and Which was, and Which is to come, the Almighty.
KJV

Rev 22:13-16
13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
16 I Jesus have sent Mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.
KJV

So it's silly to even listen to someone like you, as what you speak doesn't align with God's written Word.

Theophory is used throughout the Bible, for countless people. It does not deify a single one of them. 'God with us', or 'with us is God', or regardless of the syntax, the meaning is clear and based on the predominant theme of the OT - God has not perpetually abandoned His people, and will never let his Covenant fall by the wayside. The Davidic King has arrived.

 

[DNB]

That is just pure silliness. God doesn't have to become perfect. He already is, even born as Jesus of Nazareth, because His Spirit inside His flesh was NOT also flesh!

Jews just cannot understand the difference between the heavenly dimension of spirit vs. this earthly dimension. They think one's soul/spirit is made up from the earth and is part of their flesh! What delusion!

Even Nicodemus, a Pharisee and ruler of the Jews, couldn't understand this simple matter, even though Jesus made it very plain...

John 3:3-6
3 Jesus answered and said unto him, "Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."
4 Nicodemus saith unto Him, "How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?"
5 Jesus answered, "Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit."
KJV

Thusly, today still, the Jews are blinded by God on that point.

Jesus was fully God when born in woman's womb, meaning His Spirit is not what increased in wisdom and stature per Luke 2:52. It was His maturing from a child to a man, that's what Luke meant.

It's even funny for one to think that The Spirit of God has to mature. That kind of tom foolery idea only comes from disbelief that Jesus was born fully God, and fully man.

Your whole thesis is predicated on your god-man theory. And yet, you used the words silly & tom-foolery in the same sentence as 'fully god and fully man'. That is an oxymoron, isn't it?
God demanded righteousness from His people, all mankind for that matter. Disobedience elicited His wrath. How in the world, and in the name of wisdom, can His own obedience to Himself, propitiate that wrath? ...and yet you actually called someone else's view as silly and tom-foolery???

 

[Cooper]

Only a perfect man, according to the Law, can abrogate the Law. This is what God demanded. As He told Abraham, if I find a minimal of ten righteous men in Sodom, I will refrain from destroying the entire city, He did the same for the world in Christ. That is, if He can find at least 1 man to perfectly fulfill the Law, he will exonerate all men on Christ's behalf.
You cannot find a single verse Scripture that supports your proposition that only God can redeem man. Which, is offensively absurd to think that this is the judicial soundness of God's Atonement. God does not make a sacrifice to Himself, and especially, a sacrifice of Himself, to Himself.

All people who look to the lamb will be saved but the lamb has to be without blemish and Jesus was.
.

 

[Cooper]

Only a perfect man, according to the Law, can abrogate the Law. This is what God demanded. As He told Abraham, if I find a minimal of ten righteous men in Sodom, I will refrain from destroying the entire city, He did the same for the world in Christ. That is, if He can find at least 1 man to perfectly fulfill the Law, he will exonerate all men on Christ's behalf.
You cannot find a single verse Scripture that supports your proposition that only God can redeem man. Which, is offensively absurd to think that this is the judicial soundness of God's Atonement. God does not make a sacrifice to Himself, and especially, a sacrifice of Himself, to Himself.

The body rots for all of us, whether we are a child of God or not, but the righteous (those who are right with God) will be raised to new life the same as Jesus. It was only the flesh that died, but God in Christ gave him newness of life eternally the same as he had with the Father before he came among us. Jesus died so that we shall have newness of life, and that more abundantly. May God bless you.
.

 

[DNB]

All people who look to the lamb will be saved but the lamb has to be without blemish and Jesus was.
.

Well, wasn't that rather evasive! Would you care to address the controversy, not where we both agree?

 

[DNB]

The body rots for all of us, whether we are a child of God or not, but the righteous (those who are right with God) will be raised to new life the same as Jesus. It was only the flesh that died, but God in Christ gave him newness of life eternally the same as he had with the Father before he came among us. Jesus died so that we shall have newness of life, and that more abundantly. May God bless you.
.

God cannot die, in the flesh, nor out of the flesh. Death posed no threat to Jesus, as, according to you, he created both life and death.
So that, where there is no loss, nor threat of loss, then, there is no sacrifice. And, where there is no sacrifice, there is no Atonement.
Jesus had to trust that God would raise him from the dead, this is where obedience and faith comes in on Christ's part. Which is why his trust in God made him perfect. Man has no hope in resurrection, if God has only raised Himself from the grave, or raised someone to which death has no power nor authority.

 

[Cooper]

God cannot die, in the flesh, nor out of the flesh. Death posed no threat to Jesus, as, according to you, he created both life and death.
So that, where there is no loss, nor threat of loss, then, there is no sacrifice. And, where there is no sacrifice, there is no Atonement.
Jesus had to trust that God would raise him from the dead, this is where obedience and faith comes in on Christ's part. Which is why his trust in God made him perfect. Man has no hope in resurrection, if God has only raised Himself from the grave, or raised someone to which death has no power nor authority.

God is spirit. Jesus was spirit and flesh. It was the flesh that died and the flesh that rose again.

 

[Davy]

Theophory is used throughout the Bible, for countless people. It does not deify a single one of them. 'God with us', or 'with us is God', or regardless of the syntax, the meaning is clear and based on the predominant theme of the OT - God has not perpetually abandoned His people, and will never let his Covenant fall by the wayside. The Davidic King has arrived.

Christ's title of Immanuel is a title of definition of His Mission as The Saviour. NONE of God's titles debase Him into some man that had sin or could have sin. This fact alone is what defines the title Immanu-el (God with us), because it is about God The Son being born in the flesh like us through woman's womb, and being without sin, and thus having the Power to forgive our sins.

NO other flesh born man can do that, which is why Jesus is God The Saviour which The Father sent. And that function is what is tied forever to His name Immanuel, because God was manifested in the flesh as The Saviour, and that is about Jesus of Nazareth, The Christ.

1 Tim 3:16
16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
KJV

Anyone who denies that Jesus of Nazareth is God The Saviour is an antichrist, because they have not believed on the ONLY Begotten Son Whom The Father sent to die on the cross as the Perfect Sacrifice for one and all time, forgiving the sins of those who believe.

 

[Davy]

Death posed no threat to Jesus, as, according to you, he created both life and death.

That is something else you apparently are not understanding. God is NOT the author of the concept of death.

Heb 2:14-15
14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, He also Himself likewise took part of the same; that through death He might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.
KJV

Rev 20:14
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
KJV

Rev 21:4
4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
KJV

Only in this present world are those who believe on The Father through His Son Jesus Christ subject to the concept of death, and that only to our flesh which is temporal anyway. In the world to come, only those who are still rebellious against The Father and His Son will still be subject to the concept of death, i.e., the "second death". When those rebellious with the devil are destroyed, then death and hell is destroyed with them, and death will be no more.

Hard to imagine the idea of death no longer existing, isn't it?

It's because the concept of death did NOT exist with God in the beginning. Satan caused it when he sinned against God in the old world prior to this world. That's why the power of death has been assigned to the devil like Hebrews 2 shows. This is why God The Son came in the flesh to die on the cross; by that He defeated the devil and death for us.

 

[charity]

Jesus Christ is the perfect man, otherwise God is imperfect. “He is the image of the invisible God, the First-born of all creation. For all things were created in Him, the things in the heavens, and the things on the earth, the visible and the invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers, all things were created through Him and for Him. And He is before all things, and by Him all things consist. (Colossians 1:15-17 MKJV)

Hebrews 5:9 is a reference to Christ's finished work on the cross. His work was perfected when he died and rose again. Luke 13:32 And He said to them, "Go, tell that fox, 'Behold, I cast out demons and perform cures today and tomorrow, and the third day I shall be perfected.'

“And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him” (Heb 5:9)

The day of Christ’s perfection, after he took our sins upon himself, was when his work was completed and all was fulfilled. Our sins were washed away and blotted out, FINISHED gone, never to be remembered against us any more :- when Jesus had received the sour wine on the cross, He said, "It is finished!" meaning, I have done it all.

The finished work of salvation was perfect. It was nothing to do with his childhood, but rather with the work he had come to do, so that we might have his perfect gift of salvation.

Hello @Cooper,

Though neither a Trinitarian or a Jehovah's Witness, I think I am still allowed to respond: So, I thank you for your response, Cooper.

I was glad to see your handling of Luke 13:32: for perfected (Gr. teleioo), as you say, has the meaning of bringing to completion in that verse.

Yes, the Lord Jesus Christ was made in the 'likeness' of sinful flesh only: He Himself being without sin; He thereby became Israel's 'Kinsman-Redeemer' with the right to redeem.

Praise God!

Thank you
With love in Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[Cooper]

Hello @Cooper,

Though neither a Trinitarian or a Jehovah's Witness, I think I am still allowed to respond: So, I thank you for your response, Cooper.

I was glad to see your handling of Luke 13:32: for perfected (Gr. teleioo), as you say, has the meaning of bringing to completion in that verse.

Yes, the Lord Jesus Christ was made in the 'likeness' of sinful flesh only: He Himself being without sin; He thereby became Israel's 'Kinsman-Redeemer' with the right to redeem.

Praise God!

Thank you
With love in Christ Jesus
Chris

I have often read your posts and recognise a kindred spirit. God bless you sister, with Christian love, Cooper.

 

[farouk]

100% God, and 100% man

@soul man John 1.14; 1 Timothy 3.16.

 

[DNB]

God is spirit. Jesus was spirit and flesh. It was the flesh that died and the flesh that rose again.

all men are made of spirit and flesh, we are all in God's image, no other creature on earth has this endowment. This is how we discern right from wrong. You haven't clarified anything, and by trying to defend your god-man theory you are getting your ontologies confused.