I believe one who deliberately sins in not a Christian.

[Webers_Home]

Those described in 1Cor. 6:9-10 will not inherit the Kingdom. That is a truth.

Webster's defines "never" as: not ever, at no time, not in any degree, not
under any condition

So then, if "never" is the correct translation for 1Cor 6:9-10, then the "some
of you" at 1Cor 6:11 would have been disqualified from the kingdom seeing
as how they were guilty of those very sins at least once in their lives.

But the fact of the matter is; Paul is speaking of something very subtle; and
not all that easy for poorly-trained Bible students to discern.

†. 2Pet 3:15-16 . . Our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom
that God gave him. . . Some of his comments are hard to understand, and
those who are ignorant and unstable have twisted his letters around to mean
something quite different from what he meant, just as they do the other
parts of Scripture-- and the result is disaster for them.

BTW: In my opinion, that particular section in 1Corinthians isn't a suitable
topic for an internet forum. It belongs in an OSAS sunday school class because,
again in my opinion, they're the only ones who can appreciate what Paul meant
by it.

Buen Camino
/

 

[Quantrill]

Webers_Home

Indeed, the unrighteouss will never inherit the Kindgom of God. But the believer is now righteouss. God changes who we are.

I don't see any conflict here at all.

Quantrill

 

[IBeMe]

Giver:
One’s spirit is united with the Holy Spirit and would never lead one to sin.

(Galatians 5:16)“Let me put it like this if you are guided by the Spirit you will be in no danger of yielding to self-indulgence....”.

Satan tempts us and if we know the act is wrong then he or she have committed a deliberate sin.

A Spiritual person/ body and spirit that deliberately sins will never have repentance.

(Hebrews 10:26-31) “If, after we have been given knowledge of the truth, we should deliberately commit any sins, then there is no longer any sacrifice for them. There is left only the dreadful prospect of judgment and of the fiery wrath that is to devour your enemies.---------“

First, let's take a look at the final hurdle.

"He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death."

Yes, we have to overcome sin; "... God is light, and in him is no darkness at all."

You are to be commended for boldly preaching righteousness!

Giver: A Spiritual person/ body and spirit that deliberately sins will never have repentance.

Let's take a closer look at this ... We don't don't want to crossover into God's turf ... His Mercy and His Judgment.

"For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, ... If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame."

A person who sins wilfully can't be renewed again to repentance.

When we ask Jesus into our heart, we're made guiltless.

A person who sins wilfully can never be guiltless, but the scripture doesn't say they can't repent..

"For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. ... who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?"

Wilful sin is open defiance against God, and will result in certain judgment and punishment."

The scripture doesn't say we can't repent.
There's also no scripture that guarantees that God will accept our repentance.

"Now it is in mine heart to make a covenant with the LORD God of Israel, that his fierce wrath may turn away from us."

How sincere are we? ... Are we going to repent and stop? ... Are we trying to play games with God.

When we fall into God's wrath and judgment, then it's between us and God.

"It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, ... deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus."

If we sin through ignorance, as we learn and grow in understanding, we have an advocate.

A lot of folks want to condemn Peter because he didn't fully understand the relation of the Mosaic Law to Salvation, and use that as an excuse ... not going to work.

Let's remember that Peter boldly preached the Gospel in the face of daily death. Go do that and then get back to me on judging Peter.

We have to have a lot of patience and forgiveness with our brethren as we all grow in understanding.

But, if we defiantly sin against God, for sure bad things are going to happen ... Can we find forgiveness? ... Maybe ... Maybe not ... That's God's call.

"Behold, thou art made whole: sin no more, lest a worse thing come unto thee."

So, if we have fallen into error; let's get back up, wipe ourselves off, accept the punishment, and make this last hurdle.

"To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God."

We have to make up our mind to sell all the way out to get this job done.

"Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto treasure hid in a field; the which when a man hath found, he hideth, and for joy thereof goeth and selleth all that he hath, and buyeth that field."


.

 

[williemac]

First, let's take a look at the final hurdle.

"He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death."

Yes, we have to overcome sin; "... God is light, and in him is no darkness at all."



.

"And this is the victory that overcomes the world-our faith." This is from 1John 5:4. The passage you quoted does not mention overcoming sin.
In fact, Jesus is the One who overcame sin for us on our behalf. When we accept His work and His sacrifice, this is faith. And we thus enter into the new covenant. Our righteous walk is not for the purpose of saving ourselves. If it were, then Christ died in vain. He is the Savior. We are not our own saviors. Walking in His righteousness is not even possible unless we are already saved, sanctified, and filled with His life and the Holy Spirit. Why would He demand that we work for that which He has already given us by faith? Do we work for a free gift? Only if we are too proud to accept charity.

There is no final hurdle other than the hurdle that was always there: which is to believe on Him for everlasting life. The Galatians slipped away from this faith and went back to works for justification, which caused Paul to inform them that they had been estranged from Christ and fallen from grace, who were trying to be justified by works of law. (Gal.5:4)

We cannot get more justified through our walk. We can certainly gain rewards on the judgment seat of Christ, but this is not in the category of justification for life.

But as for the OP. Heb.10:26 does not use the word "deliberate". It uses "willfully". The context bears out that it is referring to they who reject the work of Jesus and therefore are willfully remaining in their sin.

The biggest offense of all is the attempt to earn a free gift of grace. It cannot be forgiven. But Jesus said all sin would be forgiven man. This includes those done deliberately.

As we can observe in Rev.2:20-22, Jesus reserves the right to chasten those of His who are in deliberate sin. Jesus called them "my servants". This is proof that the op statement is contrary to the mind of God in this matter.

 

[IBeMe]

williemac : "And this is the victory that overcomes the world-our faith." This is from 1John 5:4. The passage you quoted does not mention overcoming sin.

You don't like the first part of that verse?

"For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: ..."

Yes, we have to overcome the world and the lusts thereof.

"Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him."

If you don't overcome the world, then the love of the father isn't in you.

"I write unto you, young men, because ye have overcome the wicked one."

And the scriptures agree...

"He that committeth sin is of the devil;"

So, No; Jesus didn't die so that folks could play around with their lusts and entertain demons.

williemac : In fact, Jesus is the One who overcame sin for us on our behalf. When we accept His work and His sacrifice, this is faith. And we thus enter into the new covenant.

We're forgiven all our past sins, when we ask Jesus into our heart, and then...

"Behold, thou art made whole: sin no more, lest a worse thing come unto thee."

"He that committeth sin is of the devil;"

What makes you think Jesus died so that we could serve Satan?

williemac : Our righteous walk is not for the purpose of saving ourselves. If it were, then Christ died in vain. He is the Savior. We are not our own saviors. Walking in His righteousness is not even possible unless we are already saved, sanctified, and filled with His life and the Holy Spirit. Why would He demand that we work for that which He has already given us by faith? Do we work for a fr
ee gift? Only if we are too proud to accept charity.

What? ... You think you're Mr. Holy now?

You think you're so holy you don't have to keep God's commandments?

" He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him "

I'm going to trust Jesus.

Jesus says that if I do what He says, He'll love me; that's good enough for me.

I don't trust someone trying to convince me to ignore Jesus.

williemac : We cannot get more justified through our walk. We can certainly gain rewards on the judgment seat of Christ, but this is not in the category of justification for life.

That makes no sense, whatsoever.

That's grammatically incorrect.

Doing what God commands, doesn't forgive sins.

Breaking God's commandments makes us sinners.

williemac : But as for the OP. Heb.10:26 does not use the word "deliberate". It uses "willfully".

Perhaps you could invest in a dictionary?

willfully: 'done deliberately'

williemac : The context bears out that it is referring to they who reject the work of Jesus and therefore are willfully remaining in their sin.

"For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth..."

After you get a dictionary it should be easy to see that it just means what it says.

williemac : The biggest offense of all is the attempt to earn a free gift of grace. It cannot be forgiven. But Jesus said all sin would be forgiven man. This includes those done deliberately.

Is that supposed to make sense?

You're contradicting yourself!

Jesus doesn't contradict himself.

He says He'll turn no one away; and then...

"Behold, thou art made whole: sin no more, lest a worse thing come unto thee."

Who's in charge of, lest a worse thing come unto thee.; you, or God?

Are you God's spokesman, in charge of His judgement and punishment?

How'd that work out for Ananias and Sapphira?

williemac : As we can observe in Rev.2:20-22, Jesus reserves the right to chasten those of His who are in deliberate sin. Jesus called them "my servants". This is proof that the op statement is contrary to the mind of God in this matter.

You forget the part where He takes their name out of the book of life!

Why do you want to sin?

 

[williemac]

You don't like the first part of that verse?

"For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: ..."

Yes, we have to overcome the world and the lusts thereof.

"Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him."

If you don't overcome the world, then the love of the father isn't in you.

"I write unto you, young men, because ye have overcome the wicked one."

And the scriptures agree...

"He that committeth sin is of the devil;"

So, No; Jesus didn't die so that folks could play around with their lusts and entertain demons.



We're forgiven all our past sins, when we ask Jesus into our heart, and then...

"Behold, thou art made whole: sin no more, lest a worse thing come unto thee."

"He that committeth sin is of the devil;"

With all dues respect, you are misquoting Rom.3. We have already been through that. The passage in my translation and in many others, which accurately reflects the original language, states that in His forbearance, God passed over the sins previously committed...."so that at this present time", He may be just and the justifier of those who have faith in Jesus. Rom.3:25,26 is comparing the situation previous to the cross with the situation at this present time. All bible commentaries will say the same thing. You are misrepresenting the intended communication of Paul. If you think about this for a second, ask yourself why the word "forbearance" is used. If He is merely forgiving a person's past sins upon conversion, then forbearance would not come into play.

As well, Jesus will always tell us to sin no more when He forgives us. But the worse thing is up for debate. You are seemingly planting your own idea into the text. Besides, this was a pre-new covenant situation you are quoting from.

As for your quote from 1John (he that committeth sin is of the devil), why ignore 1John 2:1? In that verse, John tells them not to sin (good advice). But then he says if we do sin, we have an advocate with the Father. This is proof that a person's future sin is also included in God's remission of sin. The "of the devil" part does not override God's grace. God so loved the world (sinners of the devil) that he gave His only begotten Son. That whosoever (of the devil) BELIEVES ON HIM, will not perish, but have everlasting life.

It seems you are merely proving your position by way of pulling verses out of their context and misrepresenting the author's communication (in my humble opinion)

God was on a rescue mission when He reconciled the world to Himself. Mankind's being "of the devil" apparently did not stop Him from His mission. While we were yet sinners (of the devil), Christ died for the ungodly. Just because you can quote a verse that uses the devil's name, does not mean you are accurately representing God's heart or His covenant with mankind through His Son.

What? ... You think you're Mr. Holy now?

You think you're so holy you don't have to keep God's commandments?

" He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him "

I'm going to trust Jesus.

Jesus says that if I do what He says, He'll love me; that's good enough for me.

I don't trust someone trying to convince me to ignore Jesus.

What makes you connect my reply with any suggestion that we disobey Jesus? The subject I am addressing is not what we should or shouldn't do, but rather how and why we are saved. His commandments in that regard are mentioned in 1John 3:23. Why ignore them? They are to believe on Jesus and love one another.

As well, I see your replies still prefer to ignore the letter to the Galatians. I am not making anything up. I am using the bible to show how we are not justified for life by our works, deeds, or actions. We are justified by faith. The promise under the old covenant was that if one obeyed the commandments of God, he would avoid a curse and acquire a blessing. This condition has been satisfied by Jesus. He became a curse for us, and His obedience (the obedience of One Man) is where we get the free gift of life, as we can clearly see from Rom.5.

If one doesn't understand that things changed when Jesus died, one will never see the grace of God in its true perspective.

(Re: the servants of Jesus who were being chastened)

You forget the part where He takes their name out of the book of life!

Why do you want to sin?

I have not forgotten anything. The passage does not apply to these men. In fact, Rev.3:19 quotes Jesus as saying "as many as I love I rebuke and chasten". Sin does not have the final say. Jesus promised He would never leave us nor forsake us. He corrects His own. He does not abandon them, as some suggest.

Your last question is no surprise, really. I am accurately representing what the bible says about how salvation is gained and kept. You are making your own logical conclusion, that I must want to sin. I have never indicated such an agenda in any of my replies. Please do not make such assumptions. Please do not judge me. That is not our place. It was John who said "if we do sin, we have an advocate (Jesus) with the Father". I merely quoted him. Your dispute is with him, not me. Ask him that same question.

 

[mjrhealth]

Christ condemend sin to the flesh, why?? because He didnt come to save your flesh. Anyone who says He doesnt sin is a liar, Unless your name is Jesus or you are already in heaven, forget it, you will sin untill Christ changes you or you die, thats the nature of the flesh. Get over it. Its the enemies plan, make people worry about sin, that way they are not in faith and are already in sin because of unbelief. You cant win. Jesus won for you.

In all His Love

 

[williemac]

Christ condemned sin to the flesh, why?? because He didn't come to save your flesh. Anyone who says He doesn't sin is a liar, Unless your name is Jesus or you are already in heaven, forget it, you will sin until Christ changes you or you die, that's the nature of the flesh. Get over it. Its the enemies plan, make people worry about sin, that way they are not in faith and are already in sin because of unbelief. You cant win. Jesus won for you.

In all His Love

Amen.

 

[IBeMe]

williemac : With all dues respect, you are misquoting Rom.3.

???
I didn't quote Romans 3.
???

williemac : We have already been through that.

I've already had a good laugh ... Let's see how silly this gets.

For crying out loud! ... You didn't know "deliberate" and "willfully" mean the same thing ... Thought you had some kind a big revelation there?

williemac : As well, Jesus will always tell us to sin no more when He forgives us. But the worse thing is up for debate. You are seemingly planting your own idea into the text. Besides, this was a pre-new covenant situation you are quoting from.

And that pretty much sums up your understanding of the Bible.

You think Jesus was teaching the Mosaic Law?

Of course you can't understand the scriptures!

"The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it."

I'm betting you won't be able to understand that.

But, Jesus says the Mosaic Law ended when John's ministry began.

"From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand."

All we have to do is read the Bible, and we learn that Jesus wasn't teaching the Mosaic Law.

Do Christians have to do what Jesus says?

"Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:"

See, that's good stuff there!

But, what if we don't understand the Bible and think Jesus was teaching the Mosaic Law, and ignore Jesus?

"And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:"

See, Jesus says that would be a foolish man; that's not good.

You mention "pre-new covenant" ... But, you don't understand what the New Covenant is?

"He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day."

No surprise, we'll be judged by the words of Jesus.

Now think about it ... Who is the Word?

How do we know what the New Covenant is? ... You guessed it ... Jesus ... Who is The Christ ... The Word.

Still don't understand?

"Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

Ah, now we know what we need to do, observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you.

So, yeah ... when Jesus says ...

"... if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments."

We can just trust Jesus and do what He says and everything will be OK.

But here's a word of caution ... If anyone ever tells you to ignore the words of Jesus ... Remember what Jesus warned ...

"And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:"

Don't let anybody fool you into ignoring Jesus! ... That would be stupid.

.

 

[Webers_Home]

He didnt come to save your flesh.

Maybe Christ didn't come to save your flesh; but he certainly did come to
save mine. In point of fact if Christ didn't come to save your flesh, then you
will not be resurrected with an immortal body impervious to death; but
instead, you will be resurrected to face justice at the Great White Throne
event depicted at Rev 20:10-15 with an ordinary mortal body unable to
resist death by immersion in flaming sulfur.

Buen Camino
/

 

[Dodo_David]

IBeMe, the fact that others disagree with the way that you interpret the Bible doesn't necessarily mean that they don't understand the Bible.

Is there a possibility that you could misinterpret something in the Bible? Yes. Why? Because you are as fallible as everyone else.

 

[IBeMe]

Dodo_David
IBeMe, the fact that others disagree with the way that you interpret the Bible doesn't necessarily mean that they don't understand the Bible.

Is there a possibility that you could misinterpret something in the Bible? Yes. Why? Because you are as fallible as everyone else.

We're not talking a minor departure from basic Bible teaching.

I don't know of any denomination that teaches that Jesus was teaching the Mosaic Law.

There's a reason the New Testament is called the New Testament.

There's a reason the Gospels are called the Gospels.

If we are to ignore the words of Jesus because Jesus was teaching the Mosaic Law, then what else is left?

"How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him;"

The disciples taught what they learned from the Lord, and also taught Paul (Ananias).

So, if what Jesus was teaching was the Mosaic Law, what happened to the Gospel?

I guess we could put all the books in the Old Testament, and leave Revelations in the New Testament.

See what I'm saying?

How can we say anything about Christianity, if Jesus was teaching the Mosaic Law and what He said can't be considered when talking about Christian doctrine?

We have to ignore the words of Jesus?

I've never heard of any church teaching that Jesus wasn't teaching the Gospel.

How can anybody pretend to know anything about the Bible if they think Jesus is to be ignored?

No! ... I don't know everything ... But I do know that the Gospels is abut the Gospel.

Not going to get too far if we don't understand that.

.

 

[aspen]

I believe that one who cannot get past his shame, humiliation and self condemnation for his sin; unable to face it; unable to be vulnerable; unable to engage in intimate relations; remains isolated and paralyzed in his sin.

 

[mjrhealth]

How can anybody pretend to know anything about the Bible if they think Jesus is to be ignored?

Here in lies the problem so many knmow the bible so few know Jesus. The bible should of being made into 3 parts. The old T, the ot being lived while teaching about the New T than the New T with the new way. While Jesus was here, He explainded the old way, He lived teh Old Way that was what He needed to do, but He came showing a new way, but the pharisees just like most christans prefered the old way. religon, church and all the stuff, jesus says, He is the way, there is no other.

In all His Love

Pointless being able to recite the bible when you dont even know who God is.

 

[IBeMe]

mjrhealth : Here in lies the problem so many knmow the bible so few know Jesus. The bible should of being made into 3 parts. The old T, the ot being lived while teaching about the New T than the New T with the new way. While Jesus was here, He explainded the old way, He lived teh Old Way that was what He needed to do, but He came showing a new way, but the pharisees just like most christans prefered the old way. religon, church and all the stuff, jesus says, He is the way, there is no other.

No "new way" for me.

"He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day."

I'm just going to do what He says.

"Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven."

I know a little secrete, God can't lie.

If we actually do the doeth, God can't keep us out of the kingdom.

Pretty good deal ... Eh?

But, if we don't do the doeth; all bets are off.

.

 

[aspen]

Ibeme - you forgot to mention what Jesus tells us to do......

 

[IBeMe]

aspen : Ibeme - you forgot to mention what Jesus tells us to do......

Look again...

"... the word that I have spoken ..."

 

[aspen]

Your are still using Christian jargon - what is the word that I have spoken?

 

[Dodo_David]

If we actually do the doeth, God can't keep us out of the kingdom.

Pretty good deal ... Eh?

But, if we don't do the doeth; all bets are off.

.

The last time that I checked, the New Testament was originally written in Koiné Greek, and nowhere in the Koiné Greek manuscripts does Jesus use 17th-Century English terminology.

By the way, what is claimed in the above quote contradicts what the Apostle Paul says in Ephesians 2:8-9.

 

[IBeMe]

Dodo_David : The last time that I checked, the New Testament was originally written in Koiné Greek, and nowhere in the Koiné Greek manuscripts does Jesus use 17th-Century English terminology.

Have it your way...

Do the poieō.