I believe one who deliberately sins in not a Christian.

[williemac]

While I appreciate the above sincere attempt to reply to me, I have already painstakingly and repeatedly replied to all of the points made in it. At the moment I don't have the time or energy to say it all again. One point, though. Just because we see the word "commandment", this is not an invitation to automatically default to the original ten. In 1John 3:23, we see two items that are called His commandment. They are faith in Him and love for one another. As well, just because we see the word "obedience", this also does not give us license to revert back to the zero tolerance of the law. My point is and will always be, the requirement for everlasting life is the humility of accepting it as a free gift (faith). All these other requirements placed on the believer are not for the purpose of denying or setting aside the grace of God. His grace is why we have life and it will remain that way regardless of what ever he is telling us to do as Christians.

This may not bode well with some people, but God has by His grace taken zero tolerance out to the picture. In fact, He has left us in our original body of sin, (2Cor.4:7) so that the glory remains His. Because of this he knows that it will be possible for both good and bad fruit to come out of the same vessel. He has allowed for it and has indicated that on the judgment seat of Christ, the bad fruit will cause loss and be eliminated, and the good fruit will remain and be rewarded...."but he himself will be saved, yet as through fire" . That is because salvation is by grace, through faith. The fruit is not for the purpose of changing this. It has its own category and purpose.

The legalist seems to only understand zero tolerance. The result is that they seem to imply that one case of disobedience can cancel out many cases of obedience. However, Jesus promised that whoever gives a man a cup of water in His name, will by no means lose his reward. Think about that.

 

[aspen]

jesus practiced a sinless life by loving others. if you love selflessly, sin is impossible

 

[Tropical Islander]

jesus practiced a sinless life by loving others. if you love selflessly, sin is impossible

Amen, and Jesus is also called "the first begotten of the dead" in Rev 1:5 that washed us from our sins

Now - yes - now we can walk as he walked.

1 John 2:6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

Colossians 1:26 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:

How do we walk as he walked? By "Christ in us, the hope of glory"

 

[ScottAU]

My point is and will always be, the requirement for everlasting life is the humility of accepting it as a free gift (faith).

That right there is problem. The Bible simply does not teach anywhere that the requirement for everlasting life is the humility of accepting it as a free gift. That is you saying that.

The Bible does say...

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Eternal life through Jesus Christ is most definitely a gift of God BUT that gift has nothing to do with "accepting it as a free gift."

Jesus said this...

Joh 15:4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
Joh 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

Eternal life THROUGH Jesus Christ is related to "abiding" in Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ is the Word and we must abide in that Word and thus allow ourselves to be led by that Word. Another wa of putting this is the Word being IMPLANTED or ENGRAFED in us.

Jas 1:21 Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.
Jas 1:22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.

It is impossible to abide in Jesus Christ if one has not forsaken sinning. It is impossible to receive the engrafted word if one has not laid aside all filthiness and overflowing of wickedness.

The simple truth is that one cannot RECEIVE JESUS and REJECT JESUS at the same time. Any theology which excuses being able to sin against God and remain in a justified state is teaching the error of being able to serve two masters.

As I have said earlier, salvation is not a package but a state of being. Salvation is not positional but is rather a manifest state. Yes a saint has a "position in Christ" but that position is a manifest reality connected to the condition of the heart. This is why Jesus said you have been made clean through His word. Abiding in Jesus Christ through faith cleanses the soul.

The repentance experience brings to an end the rebellion of a sinner (rebellion to God) and produces heart submission. Repentance is key and it cannot be watered down to some a simple "chaneg of mind" where one "still continues in their rebellion" (albeit a little less than before). All the theology that teaches that a Christian can still be addicted to sin and can thus serve sin and yet be saved is a satanic lie.

Pure hearts do not commit adultery with the world, rather they are hearts which have returned to the Lord and walk in His steps. This does not mean perfection as in never erring (because we all have limited understanding) but what it does mean is that there is no rebellion to God whatsoever. None! The sin has stopped and the saint is now in a position to grow in the grace and knowledge of Jesus Christ. The self-willed wild horse has been broken and a submissive vessel has been produced which can be inwelt with the Holy Spirit and thus led of God.




Williamac, look at this statement you make...

This may not bode well with some people, but God has by His grace taken zero tolerance out to the picture. In fact, He has left us in our original body of sin, (2Cor.4:7) so that the glory remains His. Because of this he knows that it will be possible for both good and bad fruit to come out of the same vessel. He has allowed for it and has indicated that on the judgment seat of Christ, the bad fruit will cause loss and be eliminated, and the good fruit will remain and be rewarded...."but he himself will be saved, yet as through fire" . That is because salvation is by grace, through faith. The fruit is not for the purpose of changing this. It has its own category and purpose.

You are defending ongoing sin in a saint as being permissable. You then twist 1Cor chapter 3 (but he himself will be saved, yes as through fire) and use it as a proof text to support ongoing rebellion to God. 1Cor chapter 3 is presented within the context of CHURCH BUILDING and not in the context of ONGOING SINNING. The saint who errs in how they go about building the kingdom is what is tested by fire and it is unproductive church building which is burned away whilst the saint in question will be saved as through fire. That passage says nothing of continuing in sin. In fact Paul specifically states that if you defile the body you will be destroyed and further more later writes that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God and specifically lists behaviour which will exclude someone.


1Co 3:1 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.
1Co 3:2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.
1Co 3:3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?
1Co 3:4 For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal?
1Co 3:5 Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man?
1Co 3:6 I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase.
1Co 3:7 So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase.
1Co 3:8 Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one: and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour.
1Co 3:9 For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building.
1Co 3:10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.
1Co 3:11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
1Co 3:12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
1Co 3:13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
1Co 3:14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
1Co 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
1Co 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
1Co 3:17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

Read the above passage several times. Paul is making the case of how there are those who uphold the teaching of Apollos and those who uphold the teaching of Paul and the division that this is causing among the Corinthians. Paul then makes the point that servants of God are simply utilising the tools God has given them and that therefore one is not better than the other. God is the builder and we simply cooperate with Him. Therefore Paul laid a foundation and others may build upon that foundation but the foundation itself is Jesus Christ. The wood, hay and stubble is unproductive Church building and the trials of this life will test as to whether man's work will be burned ot not. The saints are not to divide over whom they perceive as having a more effective minisitry but rather to realise that we are all working for the same end and to let what will be be. 1Cor 3 has NOTHING to do with ongoing sinning. NOTHING!

Will, your doctrine is a myth. It blows my mind how people like you actually believe it when it is not in the Bible. Your doctrine is based of theological bullet points which are supported by out of context isolated Bible verses. It is for this reason that you cannot directly address the context of these verses when they are put before you (just like how would not address "Jesus paying your sin penalty" earlier).


Now with that all being said I believe you are quite correct in disaccociating the Ten Commandents from the Commandments of Jesus. The Ten Commandments is but a shadow of love and when we abide in Jesus Christ having had our hearts made clean through faith then it is the law of love we serve and not the Ten Commandments. The Law of Moses was instituted to regulate the outer man, the sinner if you will, the man who is not regulated internally by love. Those who are in Christ fulfill the righteousness of the law in them through love and are therefore not under the letter of the law. This is the ministration of righteousness through the Spirit.

The legalist seems to only understand zero tolerance. The result is that they seem to imply that one case of disobedience can cancel out many cases of obedience. However, Jesus promised that whoever gives a man a cup of water in His name, will by no means lose his reward. Think about that.

That there is another example of attempting to proof text an isolated verse. Here is that exchange in Mark...

Mar 9:35 And he sat down, and called the twelve, and saith unto them, If any man desire to be first, the same shall be last of all, and servant of all.
Mar 9:36 And he took a child, and set him in the midst of them: and when he had taken him in his arms, he said unto them,
Mar 9:37 Whosoever shall receive one of such children in my name, receiveth me: and whosoever shall receive me, receiveth not me, but him that sent me.
Mar 9:38 And John answered him, saying, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name, and he followeth not us: and we forbad him, because he followeth not us.
Mar 9:39 But Jesus said, Forbid him not: for there is no man which shall do a miracle in my name, that can lightly speak evil of me.
Mar 9:40 For he that is not against us is on our part.
Mar 9:41 For whosoever shall give you a cup of water to drink in my name, because ye belong to Christ, verily I say unto you, he shall not lose his reward.

Jesus is clearly teaching about the unity of the brethren. The apostles were seeing themselves as being the exclusive agents of Jesus Christ and Jesus corrected them in saying that this was not so. Another man who was casting out devils in the name of Jesus yet would not follow the apostles could still be serving God because God is the apex and not a man. It is a very similar teaching to what Paul taught in 1Cor 3.

If anyone gives another a cup of water to drink in the name of Jesus but is not intrinsically involved with you it matter not. That man shall not lose His reward.

Jesus is not teaching that you can go and sin and not lose your reward.

The problem with legalism is that it focuses on the shadow as opposed to the source. The Pharisees sought to cleanse the outside of the cup via the law but ignored the true condition of their hearts. The law cannot save a man because all it does is regulate outer behaviour. Jesus teaches in Matthew 5 that the issue is the HEART. The HEART MUST BE CLEAN (ie. righteousness greater than that of the scribes and Pharisees). Inward adultery is just as bad as outward adultery because in both cases the heart is filthy. Inward hate is just as bad as outward murder because in both cases the heart is filthy.

The issue between man and God is the heart. God, in His mercy, is willing to forgive sinners but only if their hearts are made clean through repentance and faith. Hence sin must be laid aside via the death of the old man once and for all.

 

[Wormwood]

It seems to me that pretty much every sin is deliberate.

 

[ScottAU]

It seems to me that pretty much every sin is deliberate.

While an action may be deliberate not every sin is rebellion. A human being, lacking in information, lacking experience, and lacking hindsight, can easily make an error in judgment.

Am error in judgment is not the same as an act of rebellion.

There is no sacrifice for ongoing acts of rebellion because the blood of Christ is a cleanser not a cover.




Heb 10:16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
Heb 10:17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.
Heb 10:18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.
Heb 10:19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus, [God has promised to remit our sins through the blood of Christ, our sins and iniquities are remembered no more]
Heb 10:20 By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh; [The new and living way is as living sacrifices totally submitted to the will of God from our hearts, we identify ourselves with Jesus Christ and the Spirit of His life]
Heb 10:21 And having an high priest over the house of God;
Heb 10:22 Let us draw near with a true heart [an honest heart] in full assurance of faith [totally trusting God], having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water. [THE CLEANSING]
Heb 10:23 Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised
Heb 10:24 And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works:
Heb 10:25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.
Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, [Deliberate rebellion is out of the question for a Christian. Rebellion reveals an unclean heart]
Heb 10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
Heb 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? [To willfully defile oneself with sin after having been washed by the blood is to trample Jesus Christ underfoot and it is to treat the grace of God with contempt.]

Look at how the above passage matches the sentiment expressed by John...

1Jn 1:5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.
1Jn 1:6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth: [Deeds (our walk) must match the profession]
1Jn 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. [The cleansing via the blood is conditional on walking in the light, in other words the rebellion to God must cease]
1Jn 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. [John is speaking about how a sinner approaches God with a true heart (see Heb 10:22) ie. being truthful about our previous sins]
1Jn 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. [This verse is teaching us that God will cleanse us of ALL unrighteousness if we are truthful about our sin, this does not mean you confess your sin and keep doing it, the sin has to stop which is sentiment expressed throughout the Bible]
1Jn 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us. [John reinforces his point that we have to come clean with God]
1Jn 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: [Sin is the exception not the rule. John says "IF" not "WHEN." John does not teach that sinning is inevitable, that is a false doctrine preached in the false church.]
1Jn 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
1Jn 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. [Keeping the words of Jesus is a sign that one truly knows Jesus]
1Jn 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. [Those who claim to no God and disobey Him are liars. There is no truth in the children of rebellion.]
1Jn 2:5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him. [The love of God is perfected in those who abide in Christ and keep His word.]
1Jn 2:6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.
1Jn 2:7 Brethren, I write no new commandment unto you, but an old commandment which ye had from the beginning. The old commandment is the word which ye have heard from the beginning.
1Jn 2:8 Again, a new commandment I write unto you, which thing is true in him and in you: because the darkness is past, and the true light now shineth.
1Jn 2:9 He that saith he is in the light, and hateth his brother, is in darkness even until now.
1Jn 2:10 He that loveth his brother abideth in the light, and there is none occasion of stumbling in him.
1Jn 2:11 But he that hateth his brother is in darkness, and walketh in darkness, and knoweth not whither he goeth, because that darkness hath blinded his eyes.

John also teaches this...

1Jn 3:1 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
1Jn 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
1Jn 3:3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure. [If we are truly abiding in Christ then we purify ourselves for we hunger and thirst after righteousness.]
1Jn 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. [Sin unto death is rebellion. John is not speaking of innocent mistakes here, he is speaking of doing wrong when you know it is wrong (see Jam 4:17).]
1Jn 3:5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
1Jn 3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him. [It is impossible to abide in Christ and sin at the same time. Abiding in Christ is involves a yielding spirit whilst the service of sin involves a rebellious spirit. The two do not mix. One cannot serve two masters.]
1Jn 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. [There are many people who try to deceive us into believing that we can do evil and still be righteous. This deception is often dressed up Calvinistic imputed righteousness doctrines which treat righteousness as an abstract position as opposed to a manifest reality rooted in heart purity via grace through faith.]
1Jn 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
1Jn 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. [It is impossible to yield oneself to unrighteousness if the seed of God is in you, to yield to unrighteousness is to cast the seed out and to return to a defiled and condemned state.}
1Jn 3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother. [This verse is the kicker. John states ever so plainly that the children of God are made manifest to the world by their deeds. There is no sin in salvation. Salvation is a state of having been set free from sin. Anyone still serving sin is a slave to sin.]
1Jn 3:11 For this is the message that ye heard from the beginning, that we should love one another. [Love is the opposite of sin. It is impossible to love one another from a pure heart and sin against each other at the same time. Bear in mind that the sin here is always within the context of a deliberate violation of conscience, not missing the mark through genuine ignorance.]


In the following passage John makes a clear distinction between "sin unto death" and "sin not unto death." This distinction harmonises perfectly with everything else John has written in his first epistle.

1Jn 5:16 If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.
1Jn 5:17 All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death. [Here John makes a distinction sin unto death and sin not unto death all within the framework of unrighteousness. A Christian may do wrong (unrighteousness) through ignorance and if that happens they are to confess that sin and and move on. A Christian is not to willfully sin against their knowledge of the truth because there is no sacrifice for that (for it reveals a filthy heart as opposed to a heart that has been cleansed, see Heb 10:26-29). Many people don't want to believe this because they want to be saved while they keep sinning, these people have never truly repented, come clean with God and been purified through the blood of Christ.
1Jn 5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not. [Those born of God don't sin. That is what John plainly states. They don't "sin unto death" but "keep themselves" by abiding in the Light.]
1Jn 5:19 And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness.

Paul gives us some excellent insight also...

Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness? [We cannot serve both. We either "sin unto death" or we "obey unto righteousness."
Rom 6:17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you. [The service of sin ceases in a Christian and they instead serve righteousness. They OBEY FROM THE HEART the doctrine according to godliness 9 see 1Ti 6:3).]
Rom 6:18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness. [The bondage of sin has been broken and we become bond servants of righteousness.]
Rom 6:19 I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness. [We yield our bodies to righteousness and in turn grow to holiness without which no-one will see God.]
Rom 6:20 For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.
Rom 6:21 What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death.
Rom 6:22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.
Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. [There are two paths. We either "sin unto death" or we "abide in Jesus Christ" and "serve righteousness." We have our fruit unto holiness the end of which is eternal life.


Rom 2:4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?
Rom 2:5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
Rom 2:6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
Rom 2:7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
Rom 2:8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
Rom 2:9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
Rom 2:10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
Rom 2:11 For there is no respect of persons with God.


The vast majority of those who profess Jesus Christ do not believe the above scriptures. The vast majority of those who profess Christ believe in a doctrinal system of theology which excuses the ongoing service of unrighteousness. The vast majority of those who profess Christ are the MANY Jesus spoke of who will be rejected at the judgment because they are workers of iniquity and refused to do the will of God.

We live in a very dark time today where an image has been raised up that looks like Jesus yet speaks the language of the dragon. The theology surrounding this image, in a nutshell, is in total denial of heart purity in salvation.

A pure heart does not knowingly do any evil whatsoever. There are no true Christians "struggling with sin." There are false Christian's under a strong delusion who "struggle with sin." They struggle because they have bought into a false Gospel message which lacks the power to set them free from their bondage.

Think about it.

 

[Wormwood]

"There are no true Christians 'struggling with sin.'" I think this is a tremendous error. Peter had to be rebuked by Paul for being led astray by Judiazers. John Mark turned back and abandoned Paul's mission such that Paul wanted nothing to do with him anymore (but later called him a true servant of Jesus). Jesus warned the churches who were struggling with sin in Revelation to repent. Paul warned the Galatians who were abandoning the Gospel to repent. Paul warned the Corinthians who were divisive, having lawsuits amongst themselves and even getting drunk at the Lord's supper. In one case, a man was sleeping with his mother-in-law and later, after repenting the church was commanded by Paul to welcome him back. If these are not deliberate sins and sins that can be forgiven, then the entire NT should be thrown out because almost all of it is written as a means of correcting Christians who were struggling with various sins. Of course grace is not license to sin, but neither is it a one time event. You are in great error.

 

[Dodo_David]

The claim that a true Christian will never again sin while on this side of eternity is a claim that I cannot reconcile to the things that I read in the Bible.

I will leave it to God to deal with people who claim to be without sin.

 

[aspen]

Unless you can prove that you love without an once of selfishness - or perfectly, you are still a sinner. I've never met a person on Earth who could make that claim.

 

[Tropical Islander]

I think you are a bit fatalistic here in your comments to Scott. There is nothing wrong with anything he said, he presented exactly what we all need to hear right now, it's the essence of the scriptures in that regard as preached by the apostles. Your implied conclusion that the presented scriptures cannot be true just because of one sentence that smells like "sinless perfection" as an extension and conclusion of some of the scriptues is a bit like a reflex argument that tries to negate the whole post, and you throw out all the scriptures presented with it. We all fall short of the glory of Christ, however the truth is still the truth.

We are all under grace. That means we can find the grace to repent from the sins we commit. If we still can find His grace to repent.

Let's move this up a notch. How about your mind knows that you commited a sin, however you feel indifferent about that fact knowing that we are all sinners, so we all sin. But you feel no remorse anymore for your actions, so you have no real reason to repent. So what state are you in right now in that position, are you in danger, or are you save?

 

[KingJ]

But to reply to the repeated quote of yours...:if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments" . Tell me how this fits with "not of works, not of yourselves, lest any man should boast" Only one of those can apply. They cannot both fit together in salvation's plan. They are opposite. Unless you are going to somehow invent that keeping commandments is not works.

They are two very seperate issues! The underlined relates to salvation. If you only quote the underlined it is half the truth. You have to try and grasp that those in Abraham's bosom got there by their obedience to the law and having a heart after God's heart. They had nothing to do with Jesus taking them from there to heaven (salvation).

 

[ScottAU]

"There are no true Christians 'struggling with sin.'" I think this is a tremendous error. Peter had to be rebuked by Paul for being led astray by Judiazers. John Mark turned back and abandoned Paul's mission such that Paul wanted nothing to do with him anymore (but later called him a true servant of Jesus). Jesus warned the churches who were struggling with sin in Revelation to repent. Paul warned the Galatians who were abandoning the Gospel to repent. Paul warned the Corinthians who were divisive, having lawsuits amongst themselves and even getting drunk at the Lord's supper. In one case, a man was sleeping with his mother-in-law and later, after repenting the church was commanded by Paul to welcome him back. If these are not deliberate sins and sins that can be forgiven, then the entire NT should be thrown out because almost all of it is written as a means of correcting Christians who were struggling with various sins. Of course grace is not license to sin, but neither is it a one time event. You are in great error.

The issue is rebellion and heart purity. Jesus plainly stated that it is the pure in heart that will see God. The Bible plainly states that without holiness no-one will see God.

A genuine Christian can err indeed but that has nothing to do with a defiled heart serving unrighteousness. Paul stated quite clearly in at least 3 places that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom and specifically named certain behaviours which will exclude people.

The reason Jesus wants people struggling with sin to repent is so they will not perish in their sins. There is no salvation in sin.

Your theology would have a pedophile "saved" while he still molests children. Think about that.

Your theology would have a serial murderer "saved" while they still commit murder. Think about that one too.


The issue is the HEART. A pure heart does not molest children and a pure heart does not murder people. Jesus Christ gave Himself for us to purify a peculiar people and redeem us from ALL iniquity. That is what the Bible teaches. He did not give Himself for us to cloak an ongoing struggle with sin. Such an idea is a mockery of God fot it implies that sin is more powerful than God.

Look at what Paul writes...

Rom 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
Rom 6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
Rom 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Rom 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
Rom 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
Rom 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

Freed from sin. Not still enslaved to sin. Our old man is crucified with Christ (through repentance) whereby the body of sin is destroyed once and for all so that we should no longer serve sin.

We are slaves to whom we obey (Rom 6:16) either sin unto death or obedience unto righteousness. A sinner serving sin has not been set free from sin, they are still a slave of sin.


When Paul was addressing the Corinthian's the context was in regards to division about teachers, taking disagreements to local authorities, all if which demonstrated their immaturity in the faith. These people were not out fornicating, lusting after women, getting drunk, stealing and claiming to be saved. The man who was having an illicit sexual relationship with his fathers wife had to repent and forsake that behaviour.

When Paul brings up defrauding the brethren he gives this stern warning...

1Co 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
1Co 6:10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

Paul did not teach that Christian's "struggle with sin." Paul did not coddle unrighteousness. In fact he also said this elsewhere...

Eph 5:1 Be ye therefore followers of God, as dear children;
Eph 5:2 And walk in love, as Christ also hath loved us, and hath given himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweetsmelling savour.
Eph 5:3 But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints;
Eph 5:4 Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks.
Eph 5:5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
Eph 5:6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.
Eph 5:7 Be not ye therefore partakers with them.

Don't be deceived with vain words for the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God. Only the pure in heart will see God exactly as Jesus taught. Read Matthew 5 where Jesus teaches that righteousness is an inward heart issue. The heart must be clean. Any individual serving sin does not have a clean heart, they love their sin more than righteousness. Let the unrighteous man forsake his wicked ways, his thoughts and return to the Lord and He will abundantly pardon. That is what the Bible teaches. Yet so many just don't believe it.

At the very end of the Bible it says...

Rev 22:11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.
Rev 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
Rev 22:13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
Rev 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
Rev 22:15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

God is going to reward every person according to their deeds. An individual is either righteous (made the righteousness of God in Him through yielding by faith) or unrighteous (still self willed and in rebellion). The two do not mix, we cannot serve two masters, we are slaves to whom we obey.

Anyone who teaches that you can sin and not surely die is a deceiver and there are many deceivers today.

Unless you can prove that you love without an once of selfishness - or perfectly, you are still a sinner. I've never met a person on Earth who could make that claim.

Here is what Peter wrote...

1Pe 1:13 Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ;
1Pe 1:14 As obedient children, not fashioning yourselves according to the former lusts in your ignorance:
1Pe 1:15 But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation;
1Pe 1:16 Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.
1Pe 1:17 And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear:
1Pe 1:18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;
1Pe 1:19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:
1Pe 1:20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,
1Pe 1:21 Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.
1Pe 1:22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:
1Pe 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.


Why don't people want to believe it? Why do people reject the notion of being able to love with a pure heart?

Instead it seems people believe that sin is more powerful than Jesus Christ and that Jesus Christ cannot truly set them free from sin this side of the grave. Thus they walk around with a defeatist mindset of "sin you will and sin you must" and remains slaves to whom they obey.

What a tragedy.

I think you are a bit fatalistic here in your comments to Scott. There is nothing wrong with anything he said, he presented exactly what we all need to hear right now, it's the essence of the scriptures in that regard as preached by the apostles. Your implied conclusion that the presented scriptures cannot be true just because of one sentence that smells like "sinless perfection" as an extension and conclusion of some of the scriptues is a bit like a reflex argument that tries to negate the whole post, and you throw out all the scriptures presented with it. We all fall short of the glory of Christ, however the truth is still the truth.

We are all under grace. That means we can find the grace to repent from the sins we commit. If we still can find His grace to repent.

Let's move this up a notch. How about your mind knows that you commited a sin, however you feel indifferent about that fact knowing that we are all sinners, so we all sin. But you feel no remorse anymore for your actions, so you have no real reason to repent. So what state are you in right now in that position, are you in danger, or are you save?

Such a reaction is not uncommon. Most people have been sucked into a theological system which defends sin and teaches that salvation is an abstract position as opposed to a manifest and total inward transformation.

"Sinless Perfection" is often a strawman which is easy to stick on people. The issue is not about being perfect in the sense of never making a mistake but rather being inwardly morally perfect and pure. Paul claimed to be morally perfect (Php 3:15) but not perfect in the sense he was still in a corruptible body (Php 3:12). Two different Greek words are used. God expects heart purity and nothing less.

Many people have redefined grace into being a license to sin. Yet Paul puts that to rest in teaching that whilst grace may abound whilst sin abounds we are not to keep sinning that grace may abound even more. Grace merely offers us the OPPORTUNITY while we are still breathing to be reconciled with God and forgiven of our sins. The blood of Christ is not a cloak for ongoing sin. Paul clearly taught that being under grace means that sin does not have dominion over us. Being under grace means we do not need the letter of the law to regulate us for our inner man is regulated by the grace of God when we abide in Christ. Hence the dominion of sin is broken, not through rules and regulations, but rather through being led by the Spirit of God.

Yet in all this it is important, I think, to understand where people are coming from. Generally they come from a theological system based upon the Westminster Confession of Faith which teaches that man lacks the ability to obey God and that sin is a natural product of the flesh body. Thus theological bullet points are used to present a salvation methodology which supports this underlying premise. Under this error sinners get saved while they still serve sin and the transformation is a gradual process of sinning (rebelling) less and less over time. Due to this these people cannot truly speak against sin but have to defend it because in their mind every person is at a different stage in their journey of sinning less and salvation after all is only a positional abstraction.

Satan has managed to rip heart purity from the Gospel and replace it with an abstract book-keeping entry instead.

An epic tragedy beyong all imagination.

 

[aspen]

No. I definitely believe in the power of God to perfect are ability to love unselfishly. I have never met anyone who has been perfected on Earth.

 

[UppsalaDragby]

The issue is rebellion and heart purity. Jesus plainly stated that it is the pure in heart that will see God. The Bible plainly states that without holiness no-one will see God.

A genuine Christian can err indeed but that has nothing to do with a defiled heart serving unrighteousness. Paul stated quite clearly in at least 3 places that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom and specifically named certain behaviours which will exclude people.

The reason Jesus wants people struggling with sin to repent is so they will not perish in their sins. There is no salvation in sin.

Your theology would have a pedophile "saved" while he still molests children. Think about that.

Your theology would have a serial murderer "saved" while they still commit murder. Think about that one too.


The issue is the HEART. A pure heart does not molest children and a pure heart does not murder people. Jesus Christ gave Himself for us to purify a peculiar people and redeem us from ALL iniquity. That is what the Bible teaches. He did not give Himself for us to cloak an ongoing struggle with sin. Such an idea is a mockery of God fot it implies that sin is more powerful than God.

Look at what Paul writes...

Rom 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
Rom 6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
Rom 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Rom 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
Rom 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
Rom 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

Freed from sin. Not still enslaved to sin. Our old man is crucified with Christ (through repentance) whereby the body of sin is destroyed once and for all so that we should no longer serve sin.

We are slaves to whom we obey (Rom 6:16) either sin unto death or obedience unto righteousness. A sinner serving sin has not been set free from sin, they are still a slave of sin.


When Paul was addressing the Corinthian's the context was in regards to division about teachers, taking disagreements to local authorities, all if which demonstrated their immaturity in the faith. These people were not out fornicating, lusting after women, getting drunk, stealing and claiming to be saved. The man who was having an illicit sexual relationship with his fathers wife had to repent and forsake that behaviour.

When Paul brings up defrauding the brethren he gives this stern warning...

1Co 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
1Co 6:10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

Paul did not teach that Christian's "struggle with sin." Paul did not coddle unrighteousness. In fact he also said this elsewhere...

Eph 5:1 Be ye therefore followers of God, as dear children;
Eph 5:2 And walk in love, as Christ also hath loved us, and hath given himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweetsmelling savour.
Eph 5:3 But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints;
Eph 5:4 Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks.
Eph 5:5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
Eph 5:6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.
Eph 5:7 Be not ye therefore partakers with them.

Don't be deceived with vain words for the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God. Only the pure in heart will see God exactly as Jesus taught. Read Matthew 5 where Jesus teaches that righteousness is an inward heart issue. The heart must be clean. Any individual serving sin does not have a clean heart, they love their sin more than righteousness. Let the unrighteous man forsake his wicked ways, his thoughts and return to the Lord and He will abundantly pardon. That is what the Bible teaches. Yet so many just don't believe it.

At the very end of the Bible it says...

Rev 22:11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.
Rev 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
Rev 22:13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
Rev 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
Rev 22:15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

God is going to reward every person according to their deeds. An individual is either righteous (made the righteousness of God in Him through yielding by faith) or unrighteous (still self willed and in rebellion). The two do not mix, we cannot serve two masters, we are slaves to whom we obey.

Anyone who teaches that you can sin and not surely die is a deceiver and there are many deceivers today.


Here is what Peter wrote...

1Pe 1:13 Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ;
1Pe 1:14 As obedient children, not fashioning yourselves according to the former lusts in your ignorance:
1Pe 1:15 But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation;
1Pe 1:16 Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.
1Pe 1:17 And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear:
1Pe 1:18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;
1Pe 1:19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:
1Pe 1:20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,
1Pe 1:21 Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.
1Pe 1:22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:
1Pe 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.


Why don't people want to believe it? Why do people reject the notion of being able to love with a pure heart?

Instead it seems people believe that sin is more powerful than Jesus Christ and that Jesus Christ cannot truly set them free from sin this side of the grave. Thus they walk around with a defeatist mindset of "sin you will and sin you must" and remains slaves to whom they obey.

What a tragedy.


Such a reaction is not uncommon. Most people have been sucked into a theological system which defends sin and teaches that salvation is an abstract position as opposed to a manifest and total inward transformation.

"Sinless Perfection" is often a strawman which is easy to stick on people. The issue is not about being perfect in the sense of never making a mistake but rather being inwardly morally perfect and pure. Paul claimed to be morally perfect (Php 3:15) but not perfect in the sense he was still in a corruptible body (Php 3:12). Two different Greek words are used. God expects heart purity and nothing less.

Many people have redefined grace into being a license to sin. Yet Paul puts that to rest in teaching that whilst grace may abound whilst sin abounds we are not to keep sinning that grace may abound even more. Grace merely offers us the OPPORTUNITY while we are still breathing to be reconciled with God and forgiven of our sins. The blood of Christ is not a cloak for ongoing sin. Paul clearly taught that being under grace means that sin does not have dominion over us. Being under grace means we do not need the letter of the law to regulate us for our inner man is regulated by the grace of God when we abide in Christ. Hence the dominion of sin is broken, not through rules and regulations, but rather through being led by the Spirit of God.

Yet in all this it is important, I think, to understand where people are coming from. Generally they come from a theological system based upon the Westminster Confession of Faith which teaches that man lacks the ability to obey God and that sin is a natural product of the flesh body. Thus theological bullet points are used to present a salvation methodology which supports this underlying premise. Under this error sinners get saved while they still serve sin and the transformation is a gradual process of sinning (rebelling) less and less over time. Due to this these people cannot truly speak against sin but have to defend it because in their mind every person is at a different stage in their journey of sinning less and salvation after all is only a positional abstraction.

Satan has managed to rip heart purity from the Gospel and replace it with an abstract book-keeping entry instead.

An epic tragedy beyong all imagination.

Another excellent post Scott.

I think one of the reasons there is so much confusion surrounding this issue is due to our failure to understand the fact that Paul's gospel reveals an alternative means of accessing the level of sanctification required by the Mosaic law. Notice how Paul makes a distinction between "reaching our goal" either through the Spirit, or through legalism:

"After beginning with the Spirit, are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort?"

Notice that the "goal" is the same, but there are two separate methods of attaining it - one through human effort, and one by the Spirit. They began with the Spirit, but were falling back into human effort.

And what was the goal?

"but Israel, who pursued a law of righteousness, has not attained it. Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works." (Romans 9:31)

With legalism, laws are used to restrain sin. For a reborn Christian it is God's righteous nature working within us that does the restraining, but we are still very much involved. We need to actively believe in what God has done. If we fix our eyes on Jesus, then his word will grow within us and the desire to sin will get choked. Or as Paul expressed it:

"Live by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the sinful nature" (Gal 5:16)

 

[aspen]

Yeah, I agree with Scott and Uppsala. Nice comments

 

[Wormwood]

The reason Jesus wants people struggling with sin to repent is so they will not perish in their sins. There is no salvation in sin.

Your theology would have a pedophile "saved" while he still molests children. Think about that.

Your theology would have a serial murderer "saved" while they still commit murder. Think about that one too.

What? Obviously you know nothing about me or my theology. I hope your theology is wrong or God will be unable to forgive your deliberate presumptions and accusations against me. I never said someone who is engaged in such evil is "saved." I said God forgives deliberate sins. Period. Almost every sin we commit is deliberate, whether it is a harsh word spoken, neglect of someone in need, taking a second look at something inappropriate or gossiping about someone who has angered you. You said that God does not forgive "rebellion"...

While an action may be deliberate not every sin is rebellion. A human being, lacking in information, lacking experience, and lacking hindsight, can easily make an error in judgment.

Am error in judgment is not the same as an act of rebellion.

There is no sacrifice for ongoing acts of rebellion because the blood of Christ is a cleanser not a cover.

If this is the case then if you ever do something wrong intentionally (not merely "an error in judgment, lack of experience, information", etc), then you are not saved. What else is a known wrong done in light of our knowledge of the truth other than an act of rebellion against God? This is pure nonsense. As I pointed out, most of the New Testament was written toward Christians who were wayward in one way or another. Its not merely about lacking experience or information. This is to suggest that a Christian will only commit sins of omission, but never sins of comission. The Bible clearly teaches otherwise. 2 Corinthians was written after Paul's first two (we dont have one of his letters) to Corinth. He chides them for their behavior after they knew better due to his previous warnings. Clearly their sins were not merely of omission. If what you are saying is true, if you have ever taken a second lustful look at a woman, ever said a harsh thing to someone, ever gossiped, or ever took something that was not yours after becoming a Christian, you are condemned. For clearly, none of these acts are sins of unintentional omission. You knew better and you did something wrong. That is an act of deliberate rebellion. According to your above statement, this would result in eternal condemnation.

There is a difference between persisting in perpetual disobedience or unbelief (someone who lives a lifestyle of homosexuality, drunkenness, abuse, etc.) and a momentary act of deliberate sin. This is very different and certainly is not characteristic of someone who has the Holy Spirit and is a follower of Christ. These lifestyles display not only acts of rebellion but a life of unbelief. Ultimately it is not our role to determine when a person is saved or when they are not. Each of us stands before God and will give an account for their own lives. However, what is clear is that God forgives acts of deliberate sin...even after someone has become a Christian. If not, then we better wait to share the Gospel until people are on their death beds....else they might do something they know to be wrong and be eternally condemned as a result since no more forgiveness is left after the initial gift.

 

[aspen]

i think there is an artificial distinction between lifestyle sin and occassional sin. it is all the same sin. either you turn it over to God and ask Him to teach you to love selflessly instead of selfishly or you will die in your selfishness. thankfully God is patient and faithful and continues to teach us how to love perfectly until our last breathe
guilt and shame and regret helps no one - only honesty and vulnerability before God allows for His sanctifying redeemtive work in our lives

 

[williemac]

What? Obviously you know nothing about me or my theology. I hope your theology is wrong or God will be unable to forgive your deliberate presumptions and accusations against me. I never said someone who is engaged in such evil is "saved." I said God forgives deliberate sins. Period. Almost every sin we commit is deliberate, whether it is a harsh word spoken, neglect of someone in need, taking a second look at something inappropriate or gossiping about someone who has angered you. You said that God does not forgive "rebellion"...

If this is the case then if you ever do something wrong intentionally (not merely "an error in judgment, lack of experience, information", etc), then you are not saved. What else is a known wrong done in light of our knowledge of the truth other than an act of rebellion against God? This is pure nonsense. As I pointed out, most of the New Testament was written toward Christians who were wayward in one way or another. Its not merely about lacking experience or information. This is to suggest that a Christian will only commit sins of omission, but never sins of comission. The Bible clearly teaches otherwise. 2 Corinthians was written after Paul's first two (we dont have one of his letters) to Corinth. He chides them for their behavior after they knew better due to his previous warnings. Clearly their sins were not merely of omission. If what you are saying is true, if you have ever taken a second lustful look at a woman, ever said a harsh thing to someone, ever gossiped, or ever took something that was not yours after becoming a Christian, you are condemned. For clearly, none of these acts are sins of unintentional omission. You knew better and you did something wrong. That is an act of deliberate rebellion. According to your above statement, this would result in eternal condemnation.

There is a difference between persisting in perpetual disobedience or unbelief (someone who lives a lifestyle of homosexuality, drunkenness, abuse, etc.) and a momentary act of deliberate sin. This is very different and certainly is not characteristic of someone who has the Holy Spirit and is a follower of Christ. These lifestyles display not only acts of rebellion but a life of unbelief. Ultimately it is not our role to determine when a person is saved or when they are not. Each of us stands before God and will give an account for their own lives. However, what is clear is that God forgives acts of deliberate sin...even after someone has become a Christian. If not, then we better wait to share the Gospel until people are on their death beds....else they might do something they know to be wrong and be eternally condemned as a result since no more forgiveness is left after the initial gift.

Very well said.

 

[Tropical Islander]

Thanks Scott that was an excellent hint, and what a deep resourceful scripture that is:

Philippians 3:12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus. 13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before, 14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus. 15 Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you. 16 Nevertheless, whereto we have already attained, let us walk by the same rule, let us mind the same thing. 17 Brethren, be followers together of me, and mark them which walk so as ye have us for an ensample. 18 (For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ: 19 Whose end is destruction, whose God is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things.) 20 For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ: 21 Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.

Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.

True, true, and true. Be perfect, be minded accordingly, and all the other-mindedness will be made obvious to you as well.

Perfection here is Perfect Heart purity, in contrast to "Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus". That's a double blessing, he testifies to have received a supernatural heart transplant already, and now follows after what he is already apprehended of that he MAY apprehend it. What a humble heart.

 

[ScottAU]

What? Obviously you know nothing about me or my theology. I hope your theology is wrong or God will be unable to forgive your deliberate presumptions and accusations against me. I never said someone who is engaged in such evil is "saved." I said God forgives deliberate sins. Period. Almost every sin we commit is deliberate, whether it is a harsh word spoken, neglect of someone in need, taking a second look at something inappropriate or gossiping about someone who has angered you. You said that God does not forgive "rebellion"...

If this is the case then if you ever do something wrong intentionally (not merely "an error in judgment, lack of experience, information", etc), then you are not saved. What else is a known wrong done in light of our knowledge of the truth other than an act of rebellion against God? This is pure nonsense. As I pointed out, most of the New Testament was written toward Christians who were wayward in one way or another. Its not merely about lacking experience or information. This is to suggest that a Christian will only commit sins of omission, but never sins of comission. The Bible clearly teaches otherwise. 2 Corinthians was written after Paul's first two (we dont have one of his letters) to Corinth. He chides them for their behavior after they knew better due to his previous warnings. Clearly their sins were not merely of omission. If what you are saying is true, if you have ever taken a second lustful look at a woman, ever said a harsh thing to someone, ever gossiped, or ever took something that was not yours after becoming a Christian, you are condemned. For clearly, none of these acts are sins of unintentional omission. You knew better and you did something wrong. That is an act of deliberate rebellion. According to your above statement, this would result in eternal condemnation. Right here you are admitting that the Christian walk is one of ongoing rebellion to God. Looking at a woman with lust? How about rape and murder? Where do you draw the line?

Can a Christian view pornography on occasion but not molest children?

The Bible says there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. Do you believe that one IN Christ Jesus is lusting after women and getting drunk on occasion? Do Christian's serve two masters?

There is a difference between persisting in perpetual disobedience or unbelief (someone who lives a lifestyle of homosexuality, drunkenness, abuse, etc.) and a momentary act of deliberate sin. So you are claiming you can murder occasionally or molest children occasionally just so long as you don't do it as a lifestyle? Think about what you are saying. You are defending being able to engage in sin and remain justified. Your position is an utter denial of hart purity in a believer. This is very different and certainly is not characteristic of someone who has the Holy Spirit and is a follower of Christ. These lifestyles display not only acts of rebellion but a life of unbelief. Ultimately it is not our role to determine when a person is saved or when they are not. You cannot ascertain anything if you are to be consistent. A serial murderer comes to your church and claims that he is not killing as much since he got saved but he still striuggles with the urge and still gives in from time to time. How about a child molester who gets saved in your theology? So long as they are not in "perpetual disobedience" and only molesting on the odd occasion then they are still growing right? Each of us stands before God and will give an account for their own lives. However, what is clear is that God forgives acts of deliberate sin...even after someone has become a Christian. Deliberate acts of sin is only forgiven if the sin is repented of and forsaken. God does not forgive those who persist in sin. The sin has to stop. Your claiming that the sin doesn't have to stop just so long as it is less than before. If not, then we better wait to share the Gospel until people are on their death beds....else they might do something they know to be wrong and be eternally condemned as a result since no more forgiveness is left after the initial gift. Rebellion is an act of the will, it is not something you do by accident. The Bible says that God does not suffer us to be tempted above that we are able to bear and that we can do all things through Jesus Christ. What you are doing is claiming that "you can sin and not surely die" and then dressing up with theological rhetoric.

This is what Jesus taught...

Mat 5:3 Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
Mat 5:4 Blessed are they that mourn: for they shall be comforted.
Mat 5:5 Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.
Mat 5:6 Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled.
Mat 5:7 Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy.
Mat 5:8 Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.
Mat 5:9 Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God.
Mat 5:10 Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness' sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
Mat 5:11 Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake.
Mat 5:12 Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.
Mat 5:13 Ye are the salt of the earth: but if the salt have lost his savour, wherewith shall it be salted? it is thenceforth good for nothing, but to be cast out, and to be trodden under foot of men.
Mat 5:14 Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid.
Mat 5:15 Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick; and it giveth light unto all that are in the house.
Mat 5:16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.
Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
Mat 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
Mat 5:20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.
Mat 5:21 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment:
Mat 5:22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.
Mat 5:23 Therefore if thou bring thy gift to the altar, and there rememberest that thy brother hath ought against thee;
Mat 5:24 Leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way; first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift.
Mat 5:25 Agree with thine adversary quickly, whiles thou art in the way with him; lest at any time the adversary deliver thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and thou be cast into prison.
Mat 5:26 Verily I say unto thee, Thou shalt by no means come out thence, till thou hast paid the uttermost farthing.
Mat 5:27 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery:
Mat 5:28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.
Mat 5:29 And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.
Mat 5:30 And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.
Mat 5:31 It hath been said, Whosoever shall put away his wife, let him give her a writing of divorcement:
Mat 5:32 But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery.
Mat 5:33 Again, ye have heard that it hath been said by them of old time, Thou shalt not forswear thyself, but shalt perform unto the Lord thine oaths:
Mat 5:34 But I say unto you, Swear not at all; neither by heaven; for it is God's throne:
Mat 5:35 Nor by the earth; for it is his footstool: neither by Jerusalem; for it is the city of the great King.
Mat 5:36 Neither shalt thou swear by thy head, because thou canst not make one hair white or black.
Mat 5:37 But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil.
Mat 5:38 Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth:
Mat 5:39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.
Mat 5:40 And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloke also.
Mat 5:41 And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain.
Mat 5:42 Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away.
Mat 5:43 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
Mat 5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
Mat 5:45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
Mat 5:46 For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?
Mat 5:47 And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so?
Mat 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.


That whole passage above is teaching that the heart must be clean. We are not to simply have a form of outward righteousness like the Pharisees but rather to be inwardly pure by which we have a righteousness which exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees.

We don't commit adultery nor do we lust after women. We don't murder people nor do we hate our fellow man. We abide in the Spirit of life in Jesus Christ by which we are made inwardly pure and in this state we endure to the end as we grow in the grace and knowledge of Jesus Christ. This is a very different message than the "confess, trust and recieve" deception which is preached pretty much everywhere today.

Why do Christian's have a problem with heart purity?

Why do Christian's constantly defend ongoing sin in salvation?

Why do Christian's constantly deny the plain words of Jesus Christ?