I believe that gay people have as much of a "choice" to be gay as you do to not sin

[Patrick1966]

and it was also Christians that were the slavers and slave owners.

Misguided Christians, perhaps. There is some debate as to how many southerners actually owned slaves. Some say it was only 1% of southerners that owned slaves while others say it was much greater. It's hard to know because the topic is so politicized that it's impossible to know whom can be believed.

 

[ScottA]

No one here is categorically denouncing all revelations or saying anything at about any revelation.

What you have demonstrated is that human interoperations of such revelations vary over time and what used to be correct is now considered wrong

What then is it that you are actually saying then, since you have accused me of "assuming" what I have not assumed?

 

[Patrick1966]

What then is it that you are actually saying then, since you have accused me of "assuming" what I have not assumed?

 

[TinMan]

Misguided Christians, perhaps. There is some debate as to how many southerners actually owned slaves. Some say it was only 1% of southerners that owned slaves while others say it was much greater. It's hard to know because the topic is so politicized that it's impossible to know whom can be believed.

You just need to look at census data to find numbers out.

What is doesn't show is just how many people supported slavery.(there were a lot)
Then you need to consider post Civil War how many people supported things like Jim Crow and segregation

A Gallup poll form 1957 found that 84% of white southerners supported segregation.

 

[Patrick1966]

A Gallup poll form 1957 found that 84% of white southerners supported segregation.

So does the modern American left along with most of black America.

 

[TinMan]

So does the modern American left along with most of black America.

Evidence?

 

[Nhisname]

And the fact is that we are ALL slaves to sin.

John 8: 34-36
Jesus answered them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who practices sin is a slaveb to sin. 35The slave does not remain in the house forever; the son remains forever. 36So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed".

The fact is that we live in an evil world and are afflicted with the condition known as "sin" and we are INCAPABLE of not sinning.

1 John 5:19 esv
We know that we are from God, and the whole world lies in the power of the evil one.

Romans 7:18 esv
For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh. For I have the desire to do what is right, but not the ability to carry it out.

My belief is that demonic and Satanic oppression is what pushes or compels us to engage in sin and, for some, that means engaging in homosexual behavior, for others it might mean getting drunk every night. It's all sin!

Ephesians 6:12 esv
For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the cosmic powers over this present darkness, against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly places.

We are responsible for our sins, but only to a point because ultimately, we cannot help but sin. We must try to resist sin, of course, but God has forgiven us for our sin as evidenced by the sacrifice of Jesus for ALL of mankind.

We definitely have a choice to sin or not.
In Eph 6:10 -17
11Put on the full armour of God so that you can take your stand against the devil's schemes. 12For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms. 13Therefore put on the full armour of God, so that when the day of evil comes, you may be able to stand your ground, and after you have done everything, to stand. 14Stand firm then, with the belt of truth buckled around your waist, with the breastplate of righteousness in place, 15and with your feet fitted with the readiness that comes from the gospel of peace. 16In addition to all this, take up the shield of faith, with which you can extinguish all the flaming arrows of the evil one. 17 Take the helmet of salvation and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God.
18And pray in the Spirit on all occasions with all kinds of prayers and requests. With this in mind, be alert and always keep on praying for all the saints. Don't fall prey to the evil one...
PRAYER REQUESTS - HOW CAN WE PRAY FOR YOU?

So, when people tell you that gay people have a "choice" to NOT be gay, that's not exactly true. Again, they have as much "choice" to not be gay as the critic does to not engage in sin.

 

[Nhisname]

Why do Christians believe that, after death, God is unwilling to forgive and save?

Why do you think Christ died on the Cross and rose again? for the dead? NO for those of us who are alive! Do you think the 12 apostles would've gone out, leave their families, risk their lives knowing they would face persecution and death knowing all ppl are going to be saved regardless of knowing about the salvation of Christ? Ppl face death and prison every day just for speaking his name and spreading the gospel. For the dead, NO for the living. God has been so gracious and patient with Israel and with us. Can the dead speak or make a decision..no.
While the dead were alive they had the choice. In Romans 1:20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.

 

[Patrick1966]

Why do you think Christ died on the Cross and rose again? for the dead? NO for those of us who are alive!

1 Corinthians 15:52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed.

 

[MatthewG]

How can you argue or judge the question.

Silly.

 

[Nhisname]

1 Corinthians 15:52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed.

Yes the dead in Christ....those who professed their faith in Christ while still living.

 

[Nhisname]

We definitely have a choice to sin or not.
In Eph 6:10 -17
11Put on the full armour of God so that you can take your stand against the devil's schemes. 12For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms. 13Therefore put on the full armour of God, so that when the day of evil comes, you may be able to stand your ground, and after you have done everything, to stand. 14Stand firm then, with the belt of truth buckled around your waist, with the breastplate of righteousness in place, 15and with your feet fitted with the readiness that comes from the gospel of peace. 16In addition to all this, take up the shield of faith, with which you can extinguish all the flaming arrows of the evil one. 17 Take the helmet of salvation and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God.
18And pray in the Spirit on all occasions with all kinds of prayers and requests. With this in mind, be alert and always keep on praying for all the saints. Don't fall prey to the evil one...
PRAYER REQUESTS - HOW CAN WE PRAY FOR YOU?

Well said. As we know that our struggle is with dark spiritual forces, it's my belief that homosexuals are under severe demonic oppression.

There are heterosexual men that go to prison and then CHOOSE to engage in homosexual relations with other men. That is a sin and, in my view, more egregious than someone who is simply "naturally" homosexual.

Any sexual relations outside of marriage is a sin.

 

[Nhisname]

In the end, ALL will be with God, regardless of what their "will" is right now.

God is all loving and all powerful. He didn't create man, in his own image no less, in order that they would be tormented FOREVER. That's a LIE started by the father of the lie in order to smear God and to run people against him. The Bible tells us that some will need a little dip into the Lake of Fire but, in the end, ALL will be with God!

Our Father is also a God of judgement and wrath. Who hates sin. Without Christ’s righteousness as our covering God won't even look upon us because he sees our deeds as filthy rags.

 

[Nhisname]

We definitely have a choice to sin or not.
In Eph 6:10 -17
11Put on the full armour of God so that you can take your stand against the devil's schemes. 12For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms. 13Therefore put on the full armour of God, so that when the day of evil comes, you may be able to stand your ground, and after you have done everything, to stand. 14Stand firm then, with the belt of truth buckled around your waist, with the breastplate of righteousness in place, 15and with your feet fitted with the readiness that comes from the gospel of peace. 16In addition to all this, take up the shield of faith, with which you can extinguish all the flaming arrows of the evil one. 17 Take the helmet of salvation and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God.
18And pray in the Spirit on all occasions with all kinds of prayers and requests. With this in mind, be alert and always keep on praying for all the saints. Don't fall prey to the evil one...
PRAYER REQUESTS - HOW CAN WE PRAY FOR YOU?

In the end, ALL will be with God, regardless of what their "will" is right now.

God is all loving and all powerful. He didn't create man, in his own image no less, in order that they would be tormented FOREVER. That's a LIE started by the father of the lie in order to smear God and to run people against him. The Bible tells us that some will need a little dip into the Lake of Fire but, in the end, ALL will be with God!

What about all the ppl in the flood that were drowned in the flood? God didn't have a problem getting rid of them. And how about Sodom and Gomorrah God didn't have any problem anilating them either. What about some of the ones coming out of Egypt, they were killed for idolatry, grumbling, a couple accidently touched the ark of the Covenant. So God doesn't have a problem zapping ppl for disobedience. He is our loving Father but demands our respect and obedience.
Those who reject God will be punished.

 

[amigo de christo]

NASB (UPDATED) TEXT: ROMANS 1:26-27
26For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural, 27and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error.

1:26,27 Homosexuality is one example of life apart from God's obvious will in creation (be fruitful). It was a sin and a major cultural problem

in the OT (cf. Lev. 18:22; 20:13; Deut. 23:18)
in the Greco-Roman world (cf. 1 Cor. 6:9; 1 Tim. 1:10)
in our day
Homosexuality is probably listed as one example of the fallen life because of the entire context's orientation to Genesis 1-3. Mankind was made in God's image (cf. Gen. 1:26-27; 5:1,3; 9:6). Mankind was made male and female (cf. Gen. 1:27). God's command was to be fruitful and multiply (cf. Gen. 1:28; 9:1,7). Mankind's fall (cf. Genesis 3) disrupted God's plan and will. Homosexuality is an obvious violation! However it must be stated that this is not the only sin mentioned in the context (cf. Rom. 1:29-31). All sins show mankind's separation from God and their deserved punishment. All sin, especially lifestyle sin, is abhorrent to God.

HOMOSEXUALITY

There is much modern cultural pressure to accept homosexuality as an appropriate alternate lifestyle. The Bible lists it as a destructive lifestyle, out of the will of God for His creation.

it violates the command of Genesis 1 to be fruitful and multiply
it is judged in Genesis 19 (cf. 2 Pet. 2:6-8; Jude 7) and Judges 19
it characterizes pagan worship and culture (cf. Lev. 18:22; 20:13; Rom. 1:18-28; and Jude 1:7)
it reveals a self-centered independence from God (cf. 1 Cor. 6:9-10; 1 Tim. 1:10)

However, let me assert God's love and forgiveness to all fallen human beings. Homosexuality is not "the unpardonable sin."

Christians have no right to act hatefully and arrogantly towards this particular sin, especially when it is obvious that all of us sin, and with Jesus' words in the Sermon on the Mount (Matt. 5:27-28) asserting that sin is in the thought as well as the act, sexual sins are multiplied exponentially.

Prayer, concern, testimony, and compassion do far more in this area than vehement condemnation. God's Word and His Spirit will do the appropriate work if we let them. All sexual sins (i.e., premarital, extra marital, incest, bestiality), not just this one, are displeasing to God and lead to judgment. Sexuality is a powerful gift from God for mankind's well-being, joy, and a stable society. But this pervasive, God-given urge is often turned into rebellious, self-centered, pleasure-seeking, "more-for-me-at-any-cost" living (cf. Rom. 8:1-8; Gal. 6:7-8).

Often people say to me, "God made me this way." It is true that we do not yet know the source of homosexuality (i.e., genetics or social) but whichever, the Bible must guide our choices; choices have consequences. Texts have priority over feelings or personal preferences. We are a faith community guided by Divine revelation, not individual rights or freedoms.

Just a concluding word, as a church leader I know that a percentage of Christians struggle with this issue. The problem is not the propensity but the act. Some ministerial students at my university struggle with other sexual issues (they are so powerful at this stage of life). Those who choose to limit their desires (i.e., abstinence) in this area (i.e., sexual desires) are surely candidates for ministry positions. This is also true for those who struggle with homosexuality. The act, not the thought, is the real issue. Why some are drawn to others of the same sex is a mystery. There is a choice in this area (as in all areas). We are responsible for our choices!

God loves people and desires the long term health, happiness, and vitality of all those made in His image and likeness Those things/acts that disrupt individual health and happiness, as well as community, are condemned. God wants our best! We want our immediate gratification! God have mercy on us all.
Utley.

If anyone STRUGGLED with strangling old ladies would the church sit by andsay , HEY they cant help that
its how they were born
IF a person struggled with murder would the church say , ITS HOW GOD MADE THEM they cant help it .
I truly believe the problem with many is they have bought into a lie
that makes it seem as though a gay person is not different than say one who is born a certain skin color .
THEY actually compare the two as if they are the same thing .
But i say its a lie . WHILE IT IS TRUE we are born either white , black , brown , chinese , THAT IS HOW GOD MADE US
as far as sin , IT needs to be rebuked . SIN is not Gods plan for us .
The two cant even be compared .

 

[amigo de christo]

Misguided Christians, perhaps. There is some debate as to how many southerners actually owned slaves. Some say it was only 1% of southerners that owned slaves while others say it was much greater. It's hard to know because the topic is so politicized that it's impossible to know whom can be believed.

Also look at what is said in scripture . Paul tells the church about servants .
If one had a servant how to treat such servant .
DOES that even begin to justify the slavery we saw in america . NO WAY . IT was and is EVIL as can be .
Where did paul say BEAT your servants , work them hard and long and make their life miserable .
YOU wont find it . servants were to be treated JUST and equal . JUST not cruel .
cause there is no respect of persons to GOD . Folks just hate the bible
so they want to make it seem like these false christains who owned slaves followed the bible .
A LIE from hell . as i am sure you know my friend .
Look at what paul writes concerning ONESIMUS . See him as a BROTHER . exactly .

 

[TinMan]

If anyone STRUGGLED with strangling old ladies would the church sit by andsay , HEY they cant help that
its how they were born
IF a person struggled with murder would the church say , ITS HOW GOD MADE THEM they cant help it .
I truly believe the problem with many is they have bought into a lie
that makes it seem as though a gay person is not different than say one who is born a certain skin color .
THEY actually compare the two as if they are the same thing .
But i say its a lie . WHILE IT IS TRUE we are born either white , black , brown , chinese , THAT IS HOW GOD MADE US
as far as sin , IT needs to be rebuked . SIN is not Gods plan for us .
The two cant even be compared .

Why can't it be compared?

 

[TinMan]

Also look at what is said in scripture . Paul tells the church about servants .
If one had a servant how to treat such servant .
DOES that even begin to justify the slavery we saw in america . NO WAY . IT was and is EVIL as can be .
Where did paul say BEAT your servants , work them hard and long and make their life miserable .
YOU wont find it . servants were to be treated JUST and equal . JUST not cruel .
cause there is no respect of persons to GOD . Folks just hate the bible
so they want to make it seem like these false christains who owned slaves followed the bible .
A LIE from hell . as i am sure you know my friend .
Look at what paul writes concerning ONESIMUS . See him as a BROTHER . exactly .

Servants aren't slaves

 

[marks]

We are responsible for our sins, but only to a point because ultimately, we cannot help but sin. We must try to resist sin, of course, but God has forgiven us for our sin as evidenced by the sacrifice of Jesus for ALL of mankind.

So, when people tell you that gay people have a "choice" to NOT be gay, that's not exactly true. Again, they have as much "choice" to not be gay as the critic does to not engage in sin.

No one can resist sin completely outside of Christ. But in Christ, you have the power to live according to His will, and you choose whether you will or not, based largely on what is your degree of maturity in the Spirit, and do you have the faith to walk in the Spirit?

Does the drug addict have a choice to not use? Homosexuality is the same. In the flesh, we are slaves to sin. In the Spirit, we are free from sin. So be born again, and obtain freedom from sin. Walk in the Spirit, and in so doing, you will not fulfill the fleshy lusts.

Does that mean the flesh is no longer corrupt? No, but you don't have to live that corruption. Is homosexuality a corruption of the flesh? Absolutely yes!

Much love!

 

[amigo de christo]

Servants aren't slaves

Correct . so those who try and say the BIBLE taught that are dead wrong .
And those false christains who tried to jusitfy their slavery , WELL what word did i put before the word christains ,
oh yeah FALSE . people just hate the bible thus they want to believe anything against it .