I don't think Predestination means Salvation

[Tong2020]

Yes. All Jews were predestined, and out of that chosen nation, the apostles were specifically predestined. They were also in God's foreknowledge.

All Gentiles were in the foreknowledge of God, but not predestined. He didn't force anyone to believe in Him, or reject Him, as He does not wish anyone to perish. Some twist that last scripture to mean, none of the elect to perish, but they are not open to the Spirit of God; they are closed minded, locked in a false doctrine of demons.

All Jews you said were predestined. Predestined unto what? And would that be individually or as a nation?

The apostles you said were specifically predestined. I gather by that, that the rest of the Jews were not specifically predestined for that. What specifically were the apostles predestined for?

<<<All Gentiles were in the foreknowledge of God, but not predestined. >>>

You said all the Jews were also in the foreknowledge of God. And so, in other words, you are saying that all human beings were in the foreknowledge of God, right? What’s your point in pointing that out?

You say in effect, that while both Jews and Gentiles were in the foreknowledge of God, the Gentiles were not predestined. Not Predestined unto what?

<<<He didn't force anyone to believe in Him, or reject Him, as He does not wish anyone to perish. >>>

Yes. And nobody is saying that God forced any of the Gentiles or any of the Jews to believe in Him.

Tong
R3959

 

[Iconoclast]

Iconoclast, when you use words such as "silly" that means it is foolishness to you doesn't it?

What is silly is the lengths that you and other people will go to avoid the clearly taught truth of God

 

[CharismaticLady]

All Jews you said were predestined. Predestined unto what? And would that be individually or as a nation?

As a nation. Romans 9:13 As it is written, “Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated.”
But not all of them became the spiritual Israel that believed the gospel. (Jacob's name was changed to Israel.)

The apostles you said were specifically predestined. I gather by that, that the rest of the Jews were not specifically predestined for that. What specifically were the apostles predestined for?

Ephesians 1:
11 In Him also we (the apostles) have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will, 12 that we who first trusted in Christ should be to the praise of His glory.

13 In Him you (the Ephesians) also trusted, after you heard the word of truth

<<<All Gentiles were in the foreknowledge of God, but not predestined. >>>

Correct.

You said all the Jews were also in the foreknowledge of God. And so, in other words, you are saying that all human beings were in the foreknowledge of God, right? What’s your point in pointing that out?

Because not all believed in Jesus. That was their choice individually, and God in His foreknowledge saw who did and who didn't.

You say in effect, that while both Jews and Gentiles were in the foreknowledge of God, the Gentiles were not predestined. Not Predestined unto what?

God only has one chosen nation, Israel. They are the natural olive branch. Gentiles are the wild olive branch. Romans 11.

<<<He didn't force anyone to believe in Him, or reject Him, as He does not wish anyone to perish. >>>

Yes. And nobody is saying that God forced any of the Gentiles or any of the Jews to believe in Him.

Correct.

God knew who would and who wouldn't

 

[CharismaticLady]

What is silly is the lengths that you and other people will go to avoid the clearly taught truth of God

Don't attack, teach, if you know so much.

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
All Jews you said were predestined. Predestined unto what? And would that be individually or as a nation?

As a nation. Romans 9:13 As it is written, “Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated.”
But not all of them became the spiritual Israel that believed the gospel. (Jacob's name was changed to Israel.)

You did not answer the other question: unto what were they predestined?

Tong2020 said: ↑
The apostles you said were specifically predestined. I gather by that, that the rest of the Jews were not specifically predestined for that. What specifically were the apostles predestined for?

Ephesians 1:
11 In Him also we (the apostles) have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will, 12 that we who first trusted in Christ should be to the praise of His glory.

13 In Him you (the Ephesians) also trusted, after you heard the word of truth

So what is your answer to the question: What specifically were the apostles predestined for?

Also, I’d say the “we” in Eph.1:11 refers not to only the apostles, but includes the Ephesian church.

Tong2020 said: ↑
<<<All Gentiles were in the foreknowledge of God, but not predestined. >>>

You said all the Jews were also in the foreknowledge of God. And so, in other words, you are saying that all human beings were in the foreknowledge of God, right? What’s your point in pointing that out?

Because not all believed in Jesus. That was their choice individually, and God in His foreknowledge saw who did and who didn't.

Tong2020 said: ↑
You say in effect, that while both Jews and Gentiles were in the foreknowledge of God, the Gentiles were not predestined. Not Predestined unto what?

God only has one chosen nation, Israel. They are the natural olive branch. Gentiles are the wild olive branch. Romans 11.

Tong2020 said: ↑
<<<He didn't force anyone to believe in Him, or reject Him, as He does not wish anyone to perish. >>>

Yes. And nobody is saying that God forced any of the Gentiles or any of the Jews to believe in Him.

Correct.

God knew who would and who wouldn't

You said that both the Jews and the Gentiles were in the foreknowledge of God.

Is that the same as saying that both the Jews and the Gentiles, were foreknown by God?

Tong
R3963

 

[quietthinker]

That is just not what scripture says.

then my friend, you are unfamiliar with the scriptures.

 

[quietthinker]

That was the Apostle Paul that wrote that. And as I said, we can only quench the Holy Spirit on the inside of us. That means we can willfully sin and sear our own conscience from letting the Spirit guide us. The conscience and mind is where the Spirit would dwell.

That is IF we have been given the Spirit and have Him within us in the first place.

I can see the garden path coming into view CL. you are being baited.

 

[CharismaticLady]

I can see the garden path coming into view CL. you are being baited.

Huh?

 

[Iconoclast]

Don't attack, teach, if you know so much.

CL you are a friend, what would I gain by any kind of an attack

 

[Iconoclast]

then my friend, you are unfamiliar with the scriptures.

Maybe you can show a verse that says God predestined everyone?
the word is used like 5 times, so pick a good one.

 

[quietthinker]

Maybe you can show a verse that says God predestined everyone?
the word is used like 5 times, so pick a good one.

here are a couple
Romans 3:22-24
Romans 5:15-18
...many were made sinners....how many?....All
...many are made righteous....how many?...All

Jesus nullified Adam selling us down the river....how many of us?....All of us

 

[Iconoclast]

quietthinker

Thanks for offering a scriptural response

here are a couple
Romans 3:22-24

[Romans 5:15-18
...many were made sinners....how many?....All
...many are made righteous....how many?...All

Jesus nullified Adam selling us down the river....how many of us?....All of us]

QT, consider this;

All men who ever lived died in Adam.
Not All men whoever lived are found in saving union with Christ

 

[Tong2020]

here are a couple
Romans 3:22-24
Romans 5:15-18
...many were made sinners....how many?....All
...many are made righteous....how many?...All

Jesus nullified Adam selling us down the river....how many of us?....All of us

How is that you take those passages as predestination, and predestination of each and every human being? Please explain. Thanks.

Tong
R3964

 

[quietthinker]

quietthinker

Thanks for offering a scriptural response

here are a couple
Romans 3:22-24

[Romans 5:15-18
...many were made sinners....how many?....All
...many are made righteous....how many?...All

Jesus nullified Adam selling us down the river....how many of us?....All of us]

QT, consider this;

All men who ever lived died in Adam.
Not All men whoever lived are found in saving union with Christ

Jesus substituted Adam and all in him, Adam ie. In Jesus' resurrection all men were incorporated. Not all men know this nor do most of them want or appreciate this gift given them. It was done without their request even before many were born. That is the nature of God...gratuitous to the max.

If men don't want the gift of life given them, God won't force it on them....they will be left to the only other option, ie death.....not because it is an arbitrary punishment but because without life there is only death.

 

[quietthinker]

How is that you take those passages as predestination, and predestination of each and every human being? Please explain. Thanks.

Tong
R3964

I thought the texts are self explanatory but I'll give some details:-
Romans 3:23 'for all have sinned and come short of the glory of God'. ...in other words, all humanity is down the flush

Romans 3:24 'being justified freely by the redemption which is in Christ Jesus'. Who is justified freely? all who had sinned'.... how many are there? all....who are the 'all'? humanity of course. How is it done? through the redemption in Jesus......That's predestination.

Romand 5:15 'but the free gift is not like the offence. For if by one man's (Adam) offense many died, much more the grace of God and the gift by the grace of that one man Jesus Christ abounded to the many'. Context tells us the word many means all.

Romans 5:16 'And the gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned. For the judgment which came from one offense resulted in condemnation, but the free gift which came from many offenses resulted in justification'. Again, all predestined to life.

Romans 5:17 For if by the one man’s offense death reigned through the one, much more those who receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.)' If any ambiguity is seen here (not that there is ambiguity) it is clarified in verse 18

Romans 5:18 'Therefore, as through one man’s offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man’s righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life'. Again we see all predestined to life.

There ya go Tong.....and we have the privilege not to speculate but with assurance bring this good news to all who are in our circle of influence. God's Spirit will convict the heart....some will embrace it......many will cast it aside as a worthless thing. What men decide, what they do with this message of salvation is theirs to decide and not another man's.

 

[Tong2020]

I thought the texts are self explanatory but I'll give some details:-
Romans 3:23 'for all have sinned and come short of the glory of God'. ...in other words, all humanity is down the flush

While the passage tells us that all have sinned, it does not say nor mean that all were predestined in that regards nor it means that God predestined all men to that.

Romans 3:24 'being justified freely by the redemption which is in Christ Jesus'. Who is justified freely? all who had sinned'.... how many are there? all....who are the 'all'? humanity of course. How is it done? through the redemption in Jesus......That's predestination.

That passage is not telling us anything about predestination. It tells us about the justification in Christ Jesus of those he identifies in v.22. Now not all human beings are justified, right? Right. Not a hint of predestination of each and all human beings there.

Romand 5:15 'but the free gift is not like the offence. For if by one man's (Adam) offense many died, much more the grace of God and the gift by the grace of that one man Jesus Christ abounded to the many'. Context tells us the word many means all.

The word “many” there could not be taken to mean does all human beings that lived, are living, and will yet to be born. The language itself does bot support that, and neither does the context.

Going back on the issue, that passage does not tell us anything about predestination. Not a hint of predestination of each and all human beings there.

Romans 5:16 'And the gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned. For the judgment which came from one offense resulted in condemnation, but the free gift which came from many offenses resulted in justification'. Again, all predestined to life.

That passage does not tell us anything about predestination. Also, not a hint of predestination of each and all human beings there.

By the way, what is your take of predestination? Does not predestination connotes certainty of happening? Or do you have the position that what God had predestined could be thwarted or changed, more so by man?

Romans 5:17 For if by the one man’s offense death reigned through the one, much more those who receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.)' If any ambiguity is seen here (not that there is ambiguity) it is clarified in verse 18

Romans 5:18 'Therefore, as through one man’s offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man’s righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life'. Again we see all predestined to life.

That passage does not tell us anything about predestination. Also, not a hint of predestination of each and all human beings there.

Tong
R3966

 

[quietthinker]

While the passage tells us that all have sinned, it does not say nor mean that all were predestined in that regards nor it means that God predestined all men to that.


That passage is not telling us anything about predestination. It tells us about the justification in Christ Jesus of those he identifies in v.22. Now not all human beings are justified, right? Right. Not a hint of predestination of each and all human beings there.


The word “many” there could not be taken to mean does all human beings that lived, are living, and will yet to be born. The language itself does bot support that, and neither does the context.

Going back on the issue, that passage does not tell us anything about predestination. Not a hint of predestination of each and all human beings there.


That passage does not tell us anything about predestination. Also, not a hint of predestination of each and all human beings there.

By the way, what is your take of predestination? Does not predestination connotes certainty of happening? Or do you have the position that what God had predestined could be thwarted or changed, more so by man?


That passage does not tell us anything about predestination. Also, not a hint of predestination of each and all human beings there.

Tong
R3966

Those who do not reject the gift given them are referred to as believers. That does not mean that those who reject the gift given have not had it given. The word all and many (the many) in their context qualify the the terms.
Jesus came into the world to save sinners. He did not fail. The majority of sinners however do not all care for the gift where words like free and given often repeated doesn't interest them.

The very word 'Grace' has a quality which excludes exclusiveness and embraces inclusiveness. All are lost sheep, all are lost coins and all are lost Sons and Daughters which are sought for.

 

[Tong2020]

@quietthinker

From my post #76:

“By the way, what is your take of predestination? Does not predestination connotes certainty of happening? Or do you have the position that what God had predestined could be thwarted or changed, more so by man?”

Tong
R3973

 

[quietthinker]

@quietthinker

From my post #76:

“By the way, what is your take of predestination? Does not predestination connotes certainty of happening? Or do you have the position that what God had predestined could be thwarted or changed, more so by man?”

Tong
R3973

I don't have a particular take which I parade on predestination. God loves; that defines him. 1 Corinthians 13 gives us a window into love's qualities....verse 5 stands out for me "keeps no record of wrongs'.....consider the implications of that.

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
@quietthinker

From my post #76:

“By the way, what is your take of predestination? Does not predestination connotes certainty of happening? Or do you have the position that what God had predestined could be thwarted or changed, more so by man?”

I don't have a particular take which I parade on predestination. God loves; that defines him. 1 Corinthians 13 gives us a window into love's qualities....verse 5 stands out for me "keeps no record of wrongs'.....consider the implications of that.

Then, it would be quite impossible for me to understand what you are saying about anything that pertains or involves predestination, if I would not know what is your understanding of predestination, or even at least your idea of what it is.

Tong
R3974