I don't think Predestination means Salvation

[quietthinker]

Then, it would be quite impossible for me to understand what you are saying about anything that pertains or involves predestination, if I would not know what is your understanding of predestination, or even at least your idea of what it is.

Tong
R3974

Below is a dictionary definition which as I understand it is the standard understanding of those I see arguing it.
I do not see the God revealed in Jesus or spoken of by the apostles including Paul taking this line.

predestination | priːˌdɛstɪˈneɪʃ(ə)n | noun [mass noun] (in Christian theology) the doctrine that God has ordained all that will happen, especially with regard to the salvation of some and not others. It has been particularly associated with the teachings of St Augustine of Hippo and of Calvin.

Those who love are vulnerable, that's its nature; they can be hurt, rejected and killed.

 

[Tong2020]

Below is a dictionary definition which as I understand it is the standard understanding of those I see arguing it.
I do not see the God revealed in Jesus or spoken of by the apostles including Paul taking this line.

predestination | priːˌdɛstɪˈneɪʃ(ə)n | noun [mass noun] (in Christian theology) the doctrine that God has ordained all that will happen, especially with regard to the salvation of some and not others. It has been particularly associated with the teachings of St Augustine of Hippo and of Calvin.

Those who love are vulnerable, that's its nature; they can be hurt, rejected and killed.

The Greek word translated in the English language, is “proorizó” which basically means to determine before, ordain, predestinate.

Now, consider the scriptures, where it speaks of a predestination made by God.

Romans 8:29
For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.

“To be conformed to the image of His Son” is the predestination. It is God who predestined such. Question, is the predestination certain to happen or not? Or do you think that something that God predestined could be changed or thwarted by the man concerned?

Tong
R3977

 

[quietthinker]

The Greek word translated in the English language, is “proorizó” which basically means to determine before, ordain, predestinate.

Now, consider the scriptures, where it speaks of a predestination made by God.

Romans 8:29
For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.

“To be conformed to the image of His Son” is the predestination. It is God who predestined such. Question, is the predestination certain to happen or not? Or do you think that something that God predestined could be changed or thwarted by the man concerned?

Tong
R3977

It's not a matter of debate for me Tong. God has overwhelmingly displayed his character in the story of Jesus. The good news for all peoples knocking on each individual door delivering unparalleled acceptance in the beloved. Sadly, those who dismiss it never see its breathtaking beauty and for those who embrace it, continue to learn of its never-ending beauty.

 

[Tong2020]

It's not a matter of debate for me Tong. God has overwhelmingly displayed his character in the story of Jesus. The good news for all peoples knocking on each individual door delivering unparalleled acceptance in the beloved. Sadly, those who dismiss it never see its breathtaking beauty and for those who embrace it, continue to learn of its never-ending beauty.

I just shared and have shown you that scriptures do speak about a predestination by God. Scripture reveals to us that God had predestined a people to be conformed to the image of Jesus Christ. Not a matter of debate.

Tong
R3977

 

[quietthinker]

I just shared and have shown you that scriptures do speak about a predestination by God. Scripture reveals to us that God had predestined a people to be conformed to the image of Jesus Christ. Not a matter of debate.

Tong
R3977

All have that privilege Tong....not all see its value. How God sees and how we as people see is miles apart.
The revealing of Jesus tells me God desires all people to see as he sees.....and not only sees but feels.

Here is a quote from a favourite author I thought as pertinent.

Those who think of the result of hastening or hindering the gospel think of it in relation to themselves and to the world. Few think of its relation to God. Few give thought to the suffering that sin has caused our Creator. All heaven suffered in Christ's agony; but that suffering did not begin or end with His manifestation in humanity. The cross is a revelation to our dull senses of the pain that, from its very inception, sin has brought to the heart of God. Every departure from the right, every deed of cruelty, every failure of humanity to reach His ideal, brings grief to Him. When there came upon Israel the calamities that were the sure result of separation from God,—subjugation by their enemies, cruelty, and death,—it is said that “His soul was grieved for the misery of Israel.” “In all their affliction He was afflicted: ... and He bare them, and carried them all the days of old.” Judges 10:16; Isaiah 63:9

 

[Iconoclast]

Jesus substituted Adam and all in him, Adam ie. In Jesus' resurrection all men were incorporated. Not all men know this nor do most of them want or appreciate this gift given them. It was done without their request even before many were born. That is the nature of God...gratuitous to the max.

If men don't want the gift of life given them, God won't force it on them....they will be left to the only other option, ie death.....not because it is an arbitrary punishment but because without life there is only death.

Scripture does not teach what you are saying. Jesus did NOT take upon Himself the seed of Adam, but rather the seed of Abraham. Hebrews2:16

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
I think that passage is more of a telling by writing ahead about such men than is a predestination of those men. The NIV seems to better render this:

4 For certain individuals whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are ungodly people, who pervert the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord.

I checked with Biblehub's Strong's Greek Concordance. Upon doing that, all indication seems to favor the KJV over the NIV. They come in stealthily. They are certain men(meaning identified men, at least by the Lord). Long ago they were designated to condemnation.

There is notion about it being written--not that it would really matter -- but with all due respect, I will stick with the KJV. Again, not that it really matters...

Even the KJV was translated from the Greek text. And the Greek word translated “ordained” is “prographó” which means to write before. For your consideration, if you will.

Tong
R3979

 

[quietthinker]

Scripture does not teach what you are saying. Jesus did NOT take upon Himself the seed of Adam, but rather the seed of Abraham. Hebrews2:16

1 Corinthians 15:22 'for as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.'

 

[Iconoclast]

1 Corinthians 15:22 'for as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.'

You didn't comment on Hebrews 2 and also not all that are in Adam and wind up in Christ

 

[quietthinker]

You didn't comment on Hebrews 2 and also not all that are in Adam and wind up in Christ

Working out and keeping context is singularly important. Roman 5:12-18 also illustrates the in Adam/ in Christ of humanity.
Hebrews 2 speaks of the superiority of the Son to angels and his relationship to men......no conflict there.

 

[Iconoclast]

Qt.
Rom.5 does not teach that all of humanity is IN CHRIST.
Christ is superior to angels, and Moses, for sure.
However you are ignoring the declared fact that Jesus took upon Himself the SEED OF ABRAHAM.
Not all men ever born, not the seed of Adam.

 

[CadyandZoe]

When one finds himself as can come to Jesus Christ and do come to Jesus Christ, that is, believe in Him, is one of the many indicators that he is among those being saved by God.

Tong
R3946

I like how you phrased this. Rather than saying we are "saved", past tense, I think it is more helpful to say we are "being saved", present tense.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Would it be more precise to say that you don't believe Election (being part of God's people) means Salvation?

Predestination is a different animal - and I don't know what "predestination" means to a God who created the space-time continuum we live in, who both sits outside of space and time and yet is active within it, and who "Declares the end from the beginning" (Isaiah 46:10).

The best analogy I have heard is to think of reality as a novel God has written, which is being manifest throughout time.

 

[CadyandZoe]

It only has to do with Israel, God's "chosen" nation. It has nothing to do with who will be saved. Gentiles have now been grafted into spiritual Israel; those on the path to salvation, but we are still responsible to stay on the path and not stumble. 2 Peter 1:2-11.

This garbage doctrine that if you are predestined to be saved, it doesn't matter how much you sin is a doctrine of demons. A doctrine of demons is any doctrine making one apathetic or defeatist regarding the one thing that separates us from God, and that is sin.

Your last point is well taken and well said. However, your argument is against those who misapply the doctrine of predestination, which is both true and Biblical.

Consider Romans 8:28-30

And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose. For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.

Notice that Paul has focused his attention on a very particular group of people: those who love God. And just as you say, this would NOT include those who take a lax attitude toward righteousness and goodness, suggesting that it doesn't matter how much sin one commits. Such people prove themselves haters of God. Such people are not predestined to be conformed to the image of his son.

Notice also that Paul draws a straight, unbroken line from foreknowledge to glorification. If this weren't so controversial, it would be very encouraging. Predestination is not an indicator of salvation, as some have rightly pointed out. Rather, foreknowledge is the true beginning of salvation.

Paul's main point here is that God has set aside those whom he will conform to the image of his son, specifically the image Paul paints. Jesus is the model of our glorification. He was glorified after he was justified; He was justified after he was called; And he was called after he was previously "known" by the Father. The same is true of all those whom God will glorify. He justifies only those whom he "foreknew", meaning, he will glorify all those who walked with him in trust and obedience. The most salient question is this, "did God know you? Did Jesus know you?" Matthew 7:22-23

 

[CharismaticLady]

Your last point is well taken and well said. However, your argument is against those who misapply the doctrine of predestination, which is both true and Biblical.

Consider Romans 8:28-30

And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose. For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.

Notice that Paul has focused his attention on a very particular group of people: those who love God. And just as you say, this would NOT include those who take a lax attitude toward righteousness and goodness, suggesting that it doesn't matter how much sin one commits. Such people prove themselves haters of God. Such people are not predestined to be conformed to the image of his son.


Notice also that Paul draws a straight, unbroken line from foreknowledge to glorification. If this weren't so controversial, it would be very encouraging. Predestination is not an indicator of salvation, as some have rightly pointed out. Rather, foreknowledge is the true beginning of salvation.

Paul's main point here is that God has set aside those whom he will conform to the image of his son, specifically the image Paul paints. Jesus is the model of our glorification. He was glorified after he was justified; He was justified after he was called; And he was called after he was previously "known" by the Father. The same is true of all those whom God will glorify. He justifies only those whom he "foreknew", meaning, he will glorify all those who walked with him in trust and obedience. The most salient question is this, "did God know you? Did Jesus know you?" Matthew 7:22-23

Well said.

Jesus was sinless and perfect. But He made it so He would not be the only one to live such a life. He was the "firstborn among many." One thing I recently saw is that glorification is the process we go through as we become like Him. Notice sanctification is not mentioned. That is because it is part of justification and not a process as has been taught by man. It is glorification. 2 Peter 1:2-11; John 17. Jesus gives us His glory NOW.

 

[Iconoclast]

Well said.

Jesus was sinless and perfect. But He made it so He would not be the only one to live such a life. He was the "firstborn among many." One thing I recently saw is that glorification is the process we go through as we become like Him. Notice sanctification is not mentioned. That is because it is part of justification and not a process as has been taught by man. It is glorification. 2 Peter 1:2-11; John 17. Jesus gives us His glory NOW.

Completely false once again.
You sin every day and thought word and deed CL

 

[CharismaticLady]

Completely false once again.
You sin every day and thought word and deed CL

You'll have to speak for yourself, not me. LOL

 

[Taken]

Completely false once again.
You sin every day and thought word and deed CL

Sin is against God.
A man born of God (converted), can NEVER again, SIN....ie not Believe in God, or Stand against Him.

1 John 3:
[9] Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

If you are sinning every day....^ that can not apply to you.

Maybe consider Converting.

 

[Iconoclast]

You'll have to speak for yourself, not me. LOL

Justification is a one time event,

sanctification is a lifetime event,

Glorification is a one time event.

 

[Iconoclast]

Sin is against God.
A man born of God (converted), can NEVER again, SIN....ie not Believe in God, or Stand against Him.

1 John 3:
[9] Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

If you are sinning every day....^ that can not apply to you.

Maybe consider Converting.

The verse means to habitually practice sin. Real Christians know about a life long struggle to mortify sin.
We would not be instructed to mortify sin, if it was not still present. Paul told us the truth ,unlike you ;
18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.

19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.

20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:

23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.