I have noticed the following Negatives about the 'rapture'...

[ScottA]

Problems and questions:

1) Daniel the prophet told us exactly when the rapture will take place?
How did Daniel receive "The Revelation Of The Mystery" 'Hid In God' until Paul, and any mention of a rapture?

2) We can 'see' if Jesus tells us 'a lie of the devil' saying "no one can know the day Nor the hour" of the rapture?

a) Some believe this is The Truth about the Second ( prophesied ) Coming Of Christ:​

​

"Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh....​

But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but My Father only."​

(Mat 24:36, 25:13)​

​

b) But, at the same time they say "we can know the 'time of the season' - What Saith The Scripture?:​

When they therefore were come together, they asked of Him, saying, LORD, wilt thou at this time​

restore again the kingdom to Israel? And He said unto them, It is not for you to know the times​

or the seasons, which The Father hath put in His Own Power." (Acts 1:6, 7)​

To say "Jesus' Words" are a 'lie of the devil' seems like an attack of God's Word Of Truth, does it not?
Honestly, do some of these teachers Really believe they "can know" What Only God, The Father, Knows?

3) Jesus tells us (in Secret) when the rapture will take place in Mat 24?
I believe He "Told the twelve apostles" privately, the 'meaning of the parables', but the rest He Told, According To This:

"Jesus Answered him, I Spake openly to the world; I ever taught in the synagogue, and in the temple,​

whither the Jews always resort; and in secret have I Said nothing. Why askest thou Me? ask them which​

heard Me, what I Have Said Unto them: Behold, they know what I Said." (John 18:20-21)​

4) Pre-trib rapture is dangerous to my soul and all believers of this doctrine are going into
apostasy / Eternal condemnation? Who made these judgmental people 'God'?

I must be mistaken then, believing the ( false? ) Gospel Of 'Grace Through faith In The Death, Burial, And
Resurrection Of The LORD Jesus Christ For God's Eternal Salvation, According To The Scriptures, because of:

God's All-Sufficient BLOOD!

Confirmed By A Vast Multitude Of Plain and Clear Passages:

God's OPERATION On All HIS New-born babes In CHRIST
+
God's Eternal Assurance
+
God's Eternal Life Insurance

When did all This Change into "I Must believe in a view of a post-trib rapture, or be Eternally Condemned"?

I am not a very good student of Scripture, noticing All these Negative discussions, am I?:

However, I honestly believe I am a 'work-in-progress' whom God Has Led to this positive/comforting view?:

God's Great GRACE Departure!

Amen.

Answers:

1. Both Daniel and Paul and even Jesus only eluded to the time of the so called rapture. Paul was most revealing, saying "but each one in his own order."
2. Jesus did not lie, but only eluded to what is true. But it is a play on words--a question which few even consider: When is it in everyone's life that no one but the Father knows-- what date(s) qualify? There are only two, and only one after one is born.
3. Jesus did not give the apostles a time or date. Again, He only eluded to what is true of "each one in his own order" which only the Father knows.
4. "Pre", "post", "mid", whatever--they're all wrong. But wrong is not a sin, simply a human condition for which we need a Savior...and we have One. However, indeed many who are wrong will not receive "eternal condemnation." But because many preferred to believe a "lie", "there will be weeping and gnashing."

 

[David in NJ]

Answers:

1. Both Daniel and Paul and even Jesus only eluded to the time of the so called rapture. Paul was most revealing, saying "but each one in his own order."
2. Jesus did not lie, but only eluded to what is true. But it is a play on words--a question which few even consider: When is it in everyone's life that know one but the Father knows-- what date(s) qualify? There are only two, and only one after one is born.
3. Jesus did not give the apostles a time or date. Again, He only eluded to what is true of "each one in his own order" which only the Father knows.
4. "Pre", "post", "mid", whatever--they're all wrong. But wrong is not a sin, simply a human condition for which we need a Savior...and we have One. However, indeed many who are wrong will not receive "eternal condemnation." But because many preferred to believe a "lie", "there will be weeping and gnashing."

1 Cor ch15 "but each one in his own order." is speaking of the RESURRECTION

But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep.
For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.
But each in his own turn: Christ the firstfruits; then at His coming, those who belong to Him.

Also - God only spoke 'Post-Trib' in His Word from Genesis forward

Immediately after the tribulation of those days:
‘The sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light;
the stars will fall from the sky,
and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.’
At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and all the tribes of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory. And He will send out His angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather His elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

 

[keithr]

Now on Ignore, since that's the only way you'll get the hint to stop your vain attempt to badger me. That's what you're actually doing with your FAKE vanity of blessing statements. I will NOT offer you blessings in Christ since you so butcher His Word! Instead, may God rebuke you, in the Name of Jesus Christ! Go!

I'm struggling to see any love in your posts. You should be more resprectful and polite in your posts. Filter out your frustration and concentrate on sharing how you understand the Scriptures. We all want to understand the Scriptures as best we can, and different interpretations test and help prove whether or not we are understanding correctly. Insults don't help. Rebuking people in Jesus' name is not what Jesus would do!

1 John 3:10-16 (WEB):

(10) In this the children of God are revealed, and the children of the devil. Whoever doesn’t do righteousness is not of God, neither is he who doesn’t love his brother.​

(11) For this is the message which you heard from the beginning, that we should love one another;​

(12) unlike Cain, who was of the evil one, and killed his brother. Why did he kill him? Because his deeds were evil, and his brother’s righteous.​

(13) Don’t be surprised, my brothers, if the world hates you.​

(14) We know that we have passed out of death into life, because we love the brothers. He who doesn’t love his brother remains in death.​

(15) Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life remaining in him.​

(16) By this we know love, because he laid down his life for us. And we ought to lay down our lives for the brothers.​

 

[ScottA]

1 Cor ch15 "but each one in his own order." is speaking of the RESURRECTION

But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep.
For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.
But each in his own turn: Christ the firstfruits; then at His coming, those who belong to Him.

Also - God only spoke 'Post-Trib' in His Word from Genesis forward

Immediately after the tribulation of those days:
‘The sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light;
the stars will fall from the sky,
and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.’
At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and all the tribes of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory. And He will send out His angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather His elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

David,

Yes, the closest theory on the rapture/resurrection is "Post-Tribulation", meaning after tribulation. The problem however, and why I in fact say it too is wrong, is because most who believe the "post" theory to be true, believe it comes as a one-time worldly event, which it is not. That is the point of Paul's clarification, saying, "but each one in his own order."

The rapture/resurrection is indeed a one-time event--but not in the world, and only in heaven where there is no passing of time ("no shadow of turning").

As for the "tribulation" component being before as opposed to after, yes, all who are born of the flesh suffer tribulation before the rapture/resurrection, "then comes the end." The greatest of which was all those collective tribulations placed upon Christ at the cross. Therefore, it is written, we "have been" crucified with Christ. It is at that time in everyone's life that the sun of this world becomes darkened, and the moon no longer gives its light, for "the light of men" is Christ.

 

[marks]

You mean you have indignation against the phrase, "Holy Word of God"??

Is that what I said? No it is not.

You are just as wrong as everyone else who attempts to put words into my mouth.

Much love!

 

[David in NJ]

David,

Yes, the closest theory on the rapture/resurrection is "Post-Tribulation", meaning after tribulation. The problem however, and why I in fact say it too is wrong, is because most who believe the "post" theory to be true, believe it comes as a one-time worldly event, which it is not. That is the point of Paul's clarification, saying, "but each one in his own order."

The rapture/resurrection is indeed a one-time event--but not in the world, and only in heaven where there is no passing of time ("no shadow of turning").

As for the "tribulation" component being before as opposed to after, yes, all who are born of the flesh suffer tribulation before the rapture/resurrection, "then comes the end." The greatest of which was all those collective tribulations placed upon Christ at the cross. Therefore, it is written, we "have been" crucified with Christ. It is at that time in everyone's life that the sun of this world becomes darkened, and the moon no longer gives its light, for "the light of men" is Christ.

Thank you for your clarification.

Paul was verifying God's Perfection of Creation = Divine Order

i do not see in Scripture a prolonged event over time but rather a Specific Order according to His Design = 1 Cor ch15

The Second Coming Resurrection(rapture) Event will take place on earth is CLEAR = 1 Thess 4:13-18, Daniel 12:1-3, 1 Cor ch15

 

[ScottA]

Thank you for your clarification.

Paul was verifying God's Perfection of Creation = Divine Order

i do not see in Scripture a prolonged event over time but rather a Specific Order according to His Design = 1 Cor ch15

The Second Coming Resurrection(rapture) Event will take place on earth is CLEAR = 1 Thess 4:13-18, Daniel 12:1-3, 1 Cor ch15

Unfortunately the stumbling block that has plagued the church, is not [actually] rightly dividing the word of truth between the events of this world and those of the kingdom of God that is not of this world. Thus, one either changes from their worldly paradigm and way of thinking, or dies before making any real change, believing all things according to their own limited understanding.

 

[MatthewG]

I couldn't tell you the day or hour.

There is a destruction though that was predicted - but the exact day or hour - when Jesus returned and gathered is bride (they were changed in the twinkling of an eye, rescued from Gods Wrath due to faithfulness) - is estimated between the wrath of God being poured out during the plagues, and the fires that consumed the town, and that is all on faith, all around in 70AD when the end of the Mosaic Age and the Prophets, was done away with - dawning on a new Age of life by and through the Spirit.

Jesus wouldn't have lied about the generation that would not pass until - those things came about.

In a second regard to the notion of 'not knowing the day or hour' for today - it simply means you do not know when you are going to die. (to me anyway)

:]

 

[InfamousBerean]

David,

Yes, the closest theory on the rapture/resurrection is "Post-Tribulation", meaning after tribulation. The problem however, and why I in fact say it too is wrong, is because most who believe the "post" theory to be true, believe it comes as a one-time worldly event, which it is not. That is the point of Paul's clarification, saying, "but each one in his own order."

The rapture/resurrection is indeed a one-time event--but not in the world, and only in heaven where there is no passing of time ("no shadow of turning").

As for the "tribulation" component being before as opposed to after, yes, all who are born of the flesh suffer tribulation before the rapture/resurrection, "then comes the end." The greatest of which was all those collective tribulations placed upon Christ at the cross. Therefore, it is written, we "have been" crucified with Christ. It is at that time in everyone's life that the sun of this world becomes darkened, and the moon no longer gives its light, for "the light of men" is Christ.

Here lies the difficulty with everyone agreeing with the same conclusions; our interpretations hinges on other definitions and foundational beliefs.

Specifically I'm referring to the difference between who will be in heaven and where each goes after death but before the resurrection spoke of in Ezek 37, Isa 26:19-20, job 19:25-27, Psa 16:8-11, 49:13-15, 71:20, and Dan 12:2-3.

I know that Helinism took root early in the Church, but don't know the full extent of its influence on our western Christian world view. The 5 New testament Bible verses that are quickly referenced any time someone suggests an alternative to being physically present in heaven with Jesus before the rapture are not very solid and most, when contextually examined, seem to suggest they support the opposition view.

Curious of your thoughts as ones believe in topics such as this influences other beliefs such as eschatological views.

Maranatha!

 

[David in NJ]

Here lies the difficulty with everyone agreeing with the same conclusions; our interpretations hinges on other definitions and foundational beliefs.

Specifically I'm referring to the difference between who will be in heaven and where each goes after death but before the resurrection spoke of in Ezek 37, Isa 26:19-20, job 19:25-27, Psa 16:8-11, 49:13-15, 71:20, and Dan 12:2-3.

I know that Helinism took root early in the Church, but don't know the full extent of its influence on our western Christian world view. The 5 New testament Bible verses that are quickly referenced any time someone suggests an alternative to being physically present in heaven with Jesus before the rapture are not very solid and most, when contextually examined, seem to suggest they support the opposition view.

Curious of your thoughts as ones believe in topics such as this influences other beliefs such as eschatological views.

Maranatha!

The only 'physical' Person in Heaven would be the Resurrected Lord Jesus Christ = 1 Cor ch15

But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead. 22For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. 23But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming. 24Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power. 25For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet. 26The last enemy that will be destroyed is death. 27For “He has put all things under His feet.” But when He says “all things are put under Him,” it is evident that He who put all things under Him is excepted. 28Now when all things are made subject to Him, then the Son Himself will also be subject to Him who put all things under Him, that God may be all in all.

 

[InfamousBerean]

The only 'physical' Person in Heaven would be the Resurrected Lord Jesus Christ = 1 Cor ch15

But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead. 22For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. 23But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming. 24Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power. 25For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet. 26The last enemy that will be destroyed is death. 27For “He has put all things under His feet.” But when He says “all things are put under Him,” it is evident that He who put all things under Him is excepted. 28Now when all things are made subject to Him, then the Son Himself will also be subject to Him who put all things under Him, that God may be all in all.

David,

I almost completely agree. We know the human, Christ, is there but not for sure any other humans, though there could be others such as Enoch or Elijah. There are other physical beings in Heaven such as Elohim (spiritual beings).

The divine human Jesus Christ is there. There may be some others but not for sure.

 

[David in NJ]

David,

I almost completely agree. We know the human, Christ, is there but not for sure any other humans, though there could be others such as Enoch or Elijah. There are other physical beings in Heaven such as Elohim (spiritual beings).

The divine human Jesus Christ is there. There may be some others but not for sure.

i have pondered this for some time as well.

From looking at the entirety of Scripture beginning in Genesis, i presently cannot find any reference to any resurrected Saints in Heaven apart from JESUS.
We also must give complete Jurisdiction on this subject to the LORD who said: John 3:13
No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven.

Interesting that you mention Enoch and Elijah as we clearly SEE that they were 'caught-UP' without seeing death.
What God did with their physical bodies is not given to us.

However, i firmly believe that Scripture declares Enoch and Elijah to be the Two Witnesses from Revelation ch11.

 

[InfamousBerean]

i have pondered this for some time as well.

From looking at the entirety of Scripture beginning in Genesis, i presently cannot find any reference to any resurrected Saints in Heaven apart from JESUS.
We also must give complete Jurisdiction on this subject to the LORD who said: John 3:13
No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven.

Interesting that you mention Enoch and Elijah as we clearly SEE that they were 'caught-UP' without seeing death.
What God did with their physical bodies is not given to us.

However, i firmly believe that Scripture declares Enoch and Elijah to be the Two Witnesses from Revelation ch11.

Some of the wonderful mysteries to ponder. I'm not so sure that there is sufficient evidence to make a strong argument for those two to be the two witnesses from Revelation ch 11.

 

[David in NJ]

Some of the wonderful mysteries to ponder. I'm not so sure that there is sufficient evidence to make a strong argument for those two to be the two witnesses from Revelation ch 11.

On the contrary, Enoch and Elijah are by far the strongest Scriptural evidence presented to us.

All prophets died except Enoch & Elijah.

These are the only two prophets who have not died in Jerusalem = not yet but soon.

 

[InfamousBerean]

On the contrary, Enoch and Elijah are by far the strongest Scriptural evidence presented to us.

All prophets died except Enoch & Elijah.

These are the only two prophets who have not died in Jerusalem = not yet but soon.

While those facts are true, nothing in malachi 4 and Revelation 11 suggests that it will be a prophet of old.

Is it remotely possible for it to be someone born and raised immediately preceding the Tribulation?

John the Baptist was Elijah and yet not literally Elijah.

While it is possible is there substantial evidence indicating it is any more than speculation?

 

[David in NJ]

Yes, they could be persons born prior to Rev ch11(obviously at least 30 years prior) similar to John the Baptist.

Failure to examine the evidence will definitely lead to speculation.
Nothing wrong with speculation, except when the evidence is ignored and/or rejected(read John ch5).
When evidence is ignored, speculation leads to assumptions, human conjecture and/or error(read John 1:46 and John 7:40-44).

The evidence is contained in Genesis, 1 Kings and Revelation and this evidence clearly points to Enoch and Elijah.

 

[keithr]

We know the human, Christ, is there but not for sure any other humans, though there could be others such as Enoch or Elijah. There are other physical beings in Heaven such as Elohim (spiritual beings).

The divine human Jesus Christ is there. There may be some others but not for sure.

Spritual beings are not physical beings. Elohim is the Hebrew word meaning gods, and is used specifically and mainly to refer to God. God is not physical - He is (a) spirit (John 4:24). Everything physical is part of God's creation.

There is no such thing as a divine human. Jesus was a human while he was living here on the earth (Php 2:7-8), and he sacrificed his human life. He was not resurrected as a human being (that would be taking back his sacrifice). Just because he was able to appear (and disappear) in human form doesn't mean that he was a human being after his resurrection - he took on human form just as angels have and do on many occasions in order to communicate with humans.

Jesus now has the same divine nature as God, and we don't know what that is like. 1 John 3:2 (WEB):

(2) Beloved, now we are children of God, and it is not yet revealed what we will be. But we know that when he is revealed, we will be like him; for we will see him just as he is.​

​

1 Corinthians 15:44 (WEB):

(44) It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body and there is also a spiritual body.​

There are no humans or physical beings in heaven - 1 Corinthians 15:50 (WEB):

(50) Now I say this, brothers, that flesh and blood can’t inherit God’s Kingdom; neither does the perishable inherit imperishable.​

Heaven is not part of God's physical creation (the universe) and physical beings cannot live there. It most likely exists in more dimensions than our 4 dimensions (3 dimensions of space, plus time), so physical beings cannot experience it.

 

[keithr]

On the contrary, Enoch and Elijah are by far the strongest Scriptural evidence presented to us.

Have you not considered the evidence of Revelation 11:5-6? WEB:

(5) If anyone desires to harm them, fire proceeds out of their mouth and devours their enemies. If anyone desires to harm them, he must be killed in this way.​

(6) These have the power to shut up the sky, that it may not rain during the days of their prophecy. They have power over the waters, to turn them into blood, and to strike the earth with every plague, as often as they desire.​

Elijah had the authority to call down fire from heaven to kill people, and to prevent it from raining. But who had the authority to turn water to blood and bring plagues - that was Moses, not Enoch.

 

[David in NJ]

Have you not considered the evidence of Revelation 11:5-6? WEB:

(5) If anyone desires to harm them, fire proceeds out of their mouth and devours their enemies. If anyone desires to harm them, he must be killed in this way.​

(6) These have the power to shut up the sky, that it may not rain during the days of their prophecy. They have power over the waters, to turn them into blood, and to strike the earth with every plague, as often as they desire.​

Elijah had the authority to call down fire from heaven to kill people, and to prevent it from raining. But who had the authority to turn water to blood and bring plagues - that was Moses, not Enoch.

Good Morning keithr,

Yes, i do consider the "water to blood".
Moses is a possibility.

There is strong evidence points to Enoch.

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

Problems and questions:

1) Daniel the prophet told us exactly when the rapture will take place?
How did Daniel receive "The Revelation Of The Mystery" 'Hid In God' until Paul, and any mention of a rapture?

2) We can 'see' if Jesus tells us 'a lie of the devil' saying "no one can know the day Nor the hour" of the rapture?

a) Some believe this is The Truth about the Second ( prophesied ) Coming Of Christ:​

​

"Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh....​

But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but My Father only."​

(Mat 24:36, 25:13)​

​

b) But, at the same time they say "we can know the 'time of the season' - What Saith The Scripture?:​

When they therefore were come together, they asked of Him, saying, LORD, wilt thou at this time​

restore again the kingdom to Israel? And He said unto them, It is not for you to know the times​

or the seasons, which The Father hath put in His Own Power." (Acts 1:6, 7)​

To say "Jesus' Words" are a 'lie of the devil' seems like an attack of God's Word Of Truth, does it not?
Honestly, do some of these teachers Really believe they "can know" What Only God, The Father, Knows?

3) Jesus tells us (in Secret) when the rapture will take place in Mat 24?
I believe He "Told the twelve apostles" privately, the 'meaning of the parables', but the rest He Told, According To This:

"Jesus Answered him, I Spake openly to the world; I ever taught in the synagogue, and in the temple,​

whither the Jews always resort; and in secret have I Said nothing. Why askest thou Me? ask them which​

heard Me, what I Have Said Unto them: Behold, they know what I Said." (John 18:20-21)​

4) Pre-trib rapture is dangerous to my soul and all believers of this doctrine are going into
apostasy / Eternal condemnation? Who made these judgmental people 'God'?

I must be mistaken then, believing the ( false? ) Gospel Of 'Grace Through faith In The Death, Burial, And
Resurrection Of The LORD Jesus Christ For God's Eternal Salvation, According To The Scriptures, because of:

God's All-Sufficient BLOOD!

Confirmed By A Vast Multitude Of Plain and Clear Passages:

God's OPERATION On All HIS New-born babes In CHRIST
+
God's Eternal Assurance
+
God's Eternal Life Insurance

When did all This Change into "I Must believe in a view of a post-trib rapture, or be Eternally Condemned"?

I am not a very good student of Scripture, noticing All these Negative discussions, am I?:

However, I honestly believe I am a 'work-in-progress' whom God Has Led to this positive/comforting view?:

God's Great GRACE Departure!

Amen.

There is a logical explanation as to why there are so many views _ yet we are all guided by the Holy Spirit. His end time plan is mysterious and the order of events are uncertain because He planned it that way. Every generation needed to have this sense of imminency of His return, and readiness. The 1st century disciples believed this as we believe it now, though the ducks seemed to be more lined up in this generation.
"The day and the hour ... only the Father knows", was how a Galilean wedding was planned. Jesus was from Galilee and so used that frame of reference. The parable of the ten virgins teaches us to be ready.

The Galilean Bride and Groom were betrothed a year before their wedding. They knew close to the week when they were to be ready. All the prepararions were made and during that week they were dressed, ready to go, ( with enough oil in their candles); and even went to bed that way, anticipating to receive the announcement at any time. The Father knew the day and the hour only. He would then tell his Son, go get your Bride and in excitement he rised up and went outside and blew the trumpet as he walked through the town. Everyone needed to be ready. The wedding party, brides maids and guests heard the shofar sounds and got up quickly to join the procession through town. The Groom arrived at his Brides home and she was ready and beautiful. They lift her up ( as if raptured and some used the expression "flown") and she is carried to the Father's house. Everyone enters and then the door is shut. If you weren't ready, you missed out. The ceremony and feast lasted a week.

That said, likey the Trumpets are blown quickly, so the events are accumulative, they take time to unfold. Though they are written down one at a time, it doesn't mean they can't all be released quickly. The Bowls could be released quickly as well. So before the devastation actually is fully realized, we could be taken up.
I still believe the 7th Trumpet is the last.