I note that Brother Copeland and Jesse Duplantis is on the minds of some here.

[Giuliano]

So are you going to not tell me what you believe, or just pretend to know more than I do?

I wasn't the person to bring up tithing. I don't see the relevance. I don't have an agenda of telling people to tithe. You brought it up; and you can't show us you know what it is. I happened to have mistaken ideas about that myself until a rabbi from Israel educated me.

That was a general look at what the Reformation did to corrupt the Church, not that every Protestant church has turned grace into licentiousness. So why take it personally? Too close to home for you? Hiding behind accusations?

I try to discuss matters of fact while you want to hint slyly the way the serpent did. Yes, I can get personal too if someone persists in getting personal with me. You are a nasty person, aren't you? I never said every Protestant church has turned grace into licentiousness. It was you who implied anyone who offered a word of criticism about Pentecostals was likely guilty of doing that. Thank goodness I know Pentecostals with an attitude I can recognize as Christian. I might think all Pentecostals are crazy.

If they are laying up treasure, why do they keep giving it away?

Keep saying that. You may wind up convincing yourself with your empty words.

I see you mention people by name, but those are just individual sinners, and you must admit not by any stretch of the imagination is indicative of the whole. Whereas, the ratio of gay or worse Catholic priests by far outweighs those priests who are straight.

I wouldn't know since I never polled priests or studied the sex lives of a large number of priests. My impression is most of them honor their vows, straight or gay. The gay priests who break their vows are also "just individual sinners," are they not? I think you have two standards: One for Pentecostals and another for Catholics.

James 1:8 A double minded man is unstable in all his ways.

 

[CharismaticLady]

I wasn't the person to bring up tithing. I don't see the relevance. I don't have an agenda of telling people to tithe. You brought it up; and you can't show us you know what it is. I happened to have mistaken ideas about that myself until a rabbi from Israel educated me.

Tithing is Old Testament, but what God's nature is, is revealed in that Scripture. So what did you learn from the rabbi?

I try to discuss matters of fact while you want to hint slyly the way the serpent did. Yes, I can get personal too if someone persists in getting personal with me. You are a nasty person, aren't you? I never said every Protestant church has turned grace into licentiousness. It was you who implied anyone who offered a word of criticism about Pentecostals was likely guilty of doing that. Thank goodness I know Pentecostals with an attitude I can recognize as Christian. I might think all Pentecostals are crazy.

You are the one who spoke against the Copelands. So you bear the shame of being nasty. I am Charismatic, not Pentecostal. Pentecostal is a denomination, and I do not hold to any denomination, whether Protestant, Catholic or Orthodox.

 

[Giuliano]

Tithing is Old Testament, but what God's nature is, is revealed in that Scripture. So what did you learn from the rabbi?

So you think that passage teaches us that God will make us rich if we give men money?

I am not interested in trying to tell you anything about my beliefs. I get the feeling I would be wasting my time. I don't think you believe anyone could teach you anything; but I can give a hint: Money is not mentioned in Malachi 3. Go figure.

You are the one who spoke against the Copelands. So you bear the shame of being nasty. I am Charismatic, not Pentecostal. Pentecostal is a denomination, and I do not hold to any denomination, whether Protestant, Catholic or Orthodox.

You can thank GISMYS_7 for starting this thread. I didn't. The thread started off, "I see that Ken Copeland and Jesse Duplantis are on the minds of some here so lets all invite them to pray and ask God to bless, guide, protect brother Copeland and Jesse!!" I asked, in a failed attempt at humor, "I thought they both already has their own private planes. Do they want new ones?" It certainly didn't amuse you.

You appear to be changing gears. Earlier you were defending "Pentecostals." I think maybe your mind is going. That happens sometimes when people try to defend the indefensible. You wrote, "The majority of people against any Pentecostal sect have turned grace into licentiousness. They haven't." I'm beginning to think maybe you don't know yourself what you believe.

I am not the type to generalize to blacken an entire group of people. I've met good Catholics and bad ones, good Pentecostals and some not so good, some good Muslims and some bad ones. I think you're off your rocker if you're attributing that kind of bias to me.

 

[GISMYS_7]

Yes satan hates and attacks men of God. and you??

 

[Giuliano]

Yes satan hates and attacks men of God. and you??

I would not call money-worshipers "men of God."

Matthew 6:24 No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.

 

[Waiting on him]

The New Covenant is to give out of love. But the nature of God to out give man is still true. Not our wants, but our needs. This is where Pentecostals excel. To believe and stand on the word of God. Many denominations do not believe what is written in blood. They choose the easy grace interpretation of their false teachers to sin and bear no condemnation.

So what's all the endless crap I hear from them begging " if you'll only trust god with his 10% wait and see what he'll do with the 90?

Their modo is we'll through all the money in the air, whatever stays up belongs too god and whatever comes down belongs too me...

 

[Candidus]

The majority of people against any Pentecostal sect have turned grace into licentiousness. They haven't.

Those that are for Pentecostal sects have turned Christianity into a Clown-show and a legalistic circus?

Look at where we end up if we declare things with a broad-brush! If one extreme necessitates the other, what does it do for us?

There is no argument for some "everyone else" or "majority" when specific people and their abuses are exposed. Pointing out what Copeland does is not an indictment against all Pentecostalism... that is, unless you endorse such actions!

 

[Candidus]

I would not call money-worshipers "men of God."

Matthew 6:24 No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.

Shame on Jesus attacking "men of God"! [sarc]

 

[Joseph77]

I would not call money-worshipers "men of God."

Matthew 6:24 No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.

Here and there,
money worshipers are men of god. (not God, not Jesus) but god - money....

 

[CharismaticLady]

I am not interested in trying to tell you anything about my beliefs. I get the feeling I would be wasting my time. I don't think you believe anyone could teach you anything; but I can give a hint: Money is not mentioned in Malachi 3. Go figure.

I imagine the rabbi told you the same thing found in Deut. 14:22-29 that I mentioned earlier. Did you even read it? It had to do with food, not money. And making provision for the Levis and the poor. A plane is not currency either, but what they needed. And, no, so far I doubt you know anything to teach anyone.

You appear to be changing gears. Earlier you were defending "Pentecostals." I think maybe your mind is going. That happens sometimes when people try to defend the indefensible. You wrote, "The majority of people against any Pentecostal sect have turned grace into licentiousness. They haven't." I'm beginning to think maybe you don't know yourself what you believe.

I defend anyone who abides by scripture, and the Copelands do. Though my own personal doctrine doesn't match any denomination 100%, all the Pentecostal denominations and the Nazarenes, combined are close. Pentecostals do not know things that the Nazarenes know, and visa versa. I know and abide by what these two denominations do not know, that the other does.

 

[CharismaticLady]

So what's all the endless crap I hear from them begging " if you'll only trust god with his 10% wait and see what he'll do with the 90?

Their modo is we'll through all the money in the air, whatever stays up belongs too god and whatever comes down belongs too me...

Them? You mean every church of thousands of denominations that teach tithing? (I don't. I give to the poor, as too many churches teach that all the tithe is theirs, and they just build empires to themselves).

Yes, there are some in WoF who promote a give to get mentality, but that is plain extortion, but no different than those in paragraph above teaching tithing. In WoF it is also called "seed faith" which many have also dropped when their eyes are opened to the motive behind this teaching.

 

[CharismaticLady]

legalistic circus

In what way legalistic?

Pointing out what Copeland does is not an indictment against all Pentecostalism... that is, unless you endorse such actions!

Like what?

 

[Ezra]

I am. I would want someone to defend me against my haters. Read the title of this post and who this is about. I don't follow the prosperity movement though I am a woman of great faith, but what I do know is the Copelands know the importance of not sinning, and giving to those in need. Their jealous haters are pathetic. Why don't they try standing on the Word of God and believing, rather than publicly speak against those who do?

i am not a copeland fan just not my cup of tea so i don't follow them

 

[Giuliano]

I imagine the rabbi told you the same thing found in Deut. 14:22-29 that I mentioned earlier. Did you even read it? It had to do with food, not money. And making provision for the Levis and the poor. A plane is not currency either, but what they needed. And, no, so far I doubt you know anything to teach anyone.

Thank you for a more moderate tone. You're partly right, but you proved you don't know. There is another place that deals with tithing in Deuteronomy 26. God gave the Land of Promise to Israel. As a way of showing gratitude for this gift, they were to tithe one tenth of the increase of whatever they raised . . . after they took possession of the Land of Israel. Since the Levites received no land, they were to be given part of this food as were widows, orphans, the poor and even Gentiles who were needy.

No one was expected to give one tenth of their wages. People earned their wages themselves. If you're a Jew growing wheat in Israel, God was providing you the increase on the land He gave you.

"And it shall be, when thou art come in unto the land which the Lord thy God giveth thee for an inheritance, and possessest it, and dwellest therein;"

Jet planes do not grow out of the land of Israel. They are man-made objects. But I promise if God gives me ten planes, I'll donate one to a widow. No, if God gives me one plane, I'll donate it to a widow as my firstfruit and wait for the next nine.

I defend anyone who abides by scripture, and the Copelands do. Though my own personal doctrine doesn't match any denomination 100%, all the Pentecostal denominations and the Nazarenes, combined are close. Pentecostals do not know things that the Nazarenes know, and visa versa. I know and abide by what these two denominations do not know, that the other does.

Why do they teach then that people should tithe on all their income? No one in Copeland's church is a Jew living in the Land of Promise, land given to them by God. My guess few are farmers; and I bet the farmers don't bring one tenth of their produce to a warehouse. Copeland teaches people should give a tenth of their gross income. It's not Biblical at all. He falsely conflates money with seeds, as if God makes money grow the way He makes plants grow.

Kenneth Copeland Ministries - When I tithe on my income, should I tithe on the net or the gross?

Proverbs 3:9 says, “Honour the Lord with thy substance, and the firstfruits of all thine increase.” That means tithes are to be given from the first fruits, from the top, the gross, not the net (Deuteronomy 26).

When you tithe on the income you receive before taxes, you’re acknowledging Jesus as LORD over all your money—even that which goes to the government. That way the money you use to pay taxes with becomes more than just dollars and cents, it becomes blessed seed that you invest in your government.

Tithing off the gross also opens the door for Jesus Himself to help meet your tax needs. Since Gloria and I began tithing that way many years ago, we have never failed to have more than enough to pay our taxes when due.

Why would Copeland be tithing of what he earns by his ministry? Levites didn't pay tithes. But then again, they also didn't collect all the tithes themselves and then feel justified before God by giving one tenth of it to the poor.

Of course, tithing involved more than one thing. Every three years, there was a celebration. Moses didn't say where it was to be held, but rather said that after they entered the Land of Promise, God would say where it would be. If people lived close by, they could carry their food (including animals to be used as food); but they could also sell them and convert it to money. Then when they arrived, they could buy whatever they wanted to eat and drink -- including wine and strong drink.

Deuteronomy 14:26 And thou shalt bestow that money for whatsoever thy soul lusteth after, for oxen, or for sheep, or for wine, or for strong drink, or for whatsoever thy soul desireth: and thou shalt eat there before the Lord thy God, and thou shalt rejoice, thou, and thine household,

I can't imagine Copeland's church holding a celebration every three years and allowing people to spend their tithes on wine or strong drink.

 

[Waiting on him]

You're partly right, but you proved you don't know. There is another place that deals with tithing in Deuteronomy 26. God gave the Land of Promise to Israel. As a way of showing gratitude for this gift, they were to tithe one tenth of the increase of whatever they raised . . . after they took possession of the Land of Israel. Since the Levites received no land, they were to be given part of this food as were widows, orphans, the poor and even Gentiles who were needy.

No one was expected to give one tenth of their wages. People earned their wages themselves. If you're a Jew growing wheat in Israel, God was providing you the increase on the land He gave you.

"And it shall be, when thou art come in unto the land which the Lord thy God giveth thee for an inheritance, and possessest it, and dwellest therein;"

Jet planes do not grow out of the land of Israel. They are man-made objects. But I promise if God gives me ten planes, I'll donate one to a widow. No, if God gives me one plane, I'll donate it to a widow as my firstfruit and wait for the next nine.

Why do they teach then that people should tithe on all their income? No one in Copeland's church is a Jew living in the Land of Promise, land given to them by God. My guess few are farmers; and I bet the farmers don't bring one tenth of their produce to a warehouse. Copeland teaches people should give a tenth of their gross income. It's not Biblical at all. He falsely conflates money with seeds, as if God makes money grow the way He makes plants grow.

Kenneth Copeland Ministries - When I tithe on my income, should I tithe on the net or the gross?

Proverbs 3:9 says, “Honour the Lord with thy substance, and the firstfruits of all thine increase.” That means tithes are to be given from the first fruits, from the top, the gross, not the net (Deuteronomy 26).

When you tithe on the income you receive before taxes, you’re acknowledging Jesus as LORD over all your money—even that which goes to the government. That way the money you use to pay taxes with becomes more than just dollars and cents, it becomes blessed seed that you invest in your government.

Tithing off the gross also opens the door for Jesus Himself to help meet your tax needs. Since Gloria and I began tithing that way many years ago, we have never failed to have more than enough to pay our taxes when due.

Why would Copeland be tithing of what he earns by his ministry? Levites didn't pay tithes. But then again, they also didn't collect all the tithes themselves and then feel justified before God by giving one tenth of it to the poor.

Of course, tithing involved more than one thing. Every three years, there was a celebration. Moses didn't say where it was to be held, but rather said that after they entered the Land of Promise, God would say where it would be. If people lived close by, they could carry their food (including animals to be used as food); but they could also sell them and convert it to money. Then when they arrived, they could buy whatever they wanted to eat and drink -- including wine and strong drink.

Deuteronomy 14:26 And thou shalt bestow that money for whatsoever thy soul lusteth after, for oxen, or for sheep, or for wine, or for strong drink, or for whatsoever thy soul desireth: and thou shalt eat there before the Lord thy God, and thou shalt rejoice, thou, and thine household,

I can't imagine Copeland's church holding a celebration every three years and allowing people to spend their tithes on wine or strong drink.

Yes the tithe is far from what people have been taught, I'm trying to see as to why pervert God's word in this way, possibly they don't know all of this is temporary.

 

[Waiting on him]

He also told them to allow the land to rest every seventh year, the way I understand it is for 490 years they neglected to do this.

How many times must I forgive my brother.

 

[Giuliano]

Yes the tithe is far from what people have been taught, I'm trying to see as to why pervert God's word in this way, possibly they don't know all of this is temporary.

There is a financial motive for it, I think. There also seems to be a kind of blindness when it comes to appreciating nature. I may not live in Israel and was not given land by God; but I can still discern what nature produces has more to do with God making things grow than with my efforts which would amount to nothing without the laws of nature God put in place. Talk about what God can make happen. Talk about grace! We can plant a seed, maybe weed a little, maybe water a little; and look at what God does with that little seed. And all God asked Israel for back was that they share that increase.

Luke 12:27 Consider the lilies how they grow: they toil not, they spin not; and yet I say unto you, that Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these.
28 If then God so clothe the grass, which is to day in the field, and to morrow is cast into the oven; how much more will he clothe you, O ye of little faith?

Seeds are planted in the ground. People didn't give seeds to God or to the Levites. They planted the seeds in the dirt; and after God gave the increase, they showed their gratitude. There is a spiritual parallel. When Jesus talked about sowing the seed, it was sowing it in mortal men with earthly bodies. Yet God can provide for that seed planted in the earthly body and create something glorious out of it. Prosperity Gospel ministers say, "Give us money as seed, and God will give you an increase. If you want money, send us money."

 

[CharismaticLady]

There is another place that deals with tithing in Deuteronomy 26. God gave the Land of Promise to Israel. As a way of showing gratitude for this gift, they were to tithe one tenth of the increase of whatever they raised . . . after they took possession of the Land of Israel. Since the Levites received no land, they were to be given part of this food as were widows, orphans, the poor and even Gentiles who were needy.

Deut. 26 is also good though missing some details, so because chapter 14 has more particulars and brings clearer understanding, it coincides to the "T" with Malachi 3:10.

Every three years, there was a celebration. Moses didn't say where it was to be held, but rather said that after they entered the Land of Promise, God would say where it would be. If people lived close by, they could carry their food (including animals to be used as food); but they could also sell them and convert it to money. Then when they arrived, they could buy whatever they wanted to eat and drink -- including wine and strong drink.

Oh my! You've got it backwards my friend. There was a celebration on both years one and two, and on the third year the whole tithe was brought into the storehouse and used solely for the Levites and the poor. In Malachi we see they had a lot of disobedience and evil going on; they obviously were not doing this. It appears they were celebrating every year instead of storing the whole tithe.

 

[GISMYS_7]

How would you feel if some people attacked your family and called them liars, fake believers and said they were looking to fool people and steal their money? How must God feel? Count the cost.

 

[Giuliano]

Deut. 26 is also good though missing some details, so because chapter 14 has more particulars and brings clearer understanding, it coincides to the "T" with Malachi 3:10.


Oh my! You've got it backwards my friend. There was a celebration on both years one and two, and on the third year the whole tithe was brought into the storehouse and used solely for the Levites and the poor. In Malachi we see they had a lot of disobedience and evil going on; they obviously were not doing this. It appears they were celebrating every year instead of storing the whole tithe.

There are varying views about it. Jews were expected to obey whatever interpretation the Sanhedrin gave them.

TITHE - JewishEncyclopedia.com

According to the Rabbis, the Books of Numbers and Deuteronomy are complementary to each other (comp. Tithe, Biblical Data); consequently there can be no contradiction between them. Thus there were three kinds of tithes: (1) that given to the Levites as stated in Num. xviii. 21 et seq., and termed "the first tithe" ("ma'aser rishon"); (2) the tithe which was to be taken to Jerusalem and there consumed by the landowner and his family, and which was termed "the second tithe" ("ma'aser sheni"), it being taken from what remained after the first tithe had been appropriated; and (3) that given to the poor ("ma'aser 'ani"). Therefore two tithes were to be taken every year except in the seventh year: Nos. 1 and 2 in the first, second, fourth, and fifth years; Nos. 1 and 3 in the third and sixth years.

Since it doesn't apply to me, the intricacies don't interest me that much. Suffice it to say, (1) wages paid to workers were not tithed when it came to donations to the Levites, and (2) the Levites were not getting rich from it since the tribe of Levi was collecting from eleven tribes, meaning they could have gotten 1/11 of what the others tribes produced. A custom did arise where people gave 10% of their wages to the poor. Rabbis disagree if that was obligatory, but the Levites were not receiving money.

The tithe for the poor gave rise to the tithing of one's earnings, with the object of distributing among the needy the sum so appropriated. This is inferred in Sifre (quoted in Tos. to Ta'an. 9a) from Deut. xiv. 22, and is therefore considered as an obligation imposed by the Mosaic law ("Ṭure Zahab" to Shulḥan 'Aruk, Yoreh De'ah, 249, 1; comp. Isaiah Horwitz, "Shene Luḥot ha-Berit," and Joseph Hahn, "Yosef Omeẓ," p. 176, Frankfort-on-the-Main, 1723). Joel Sirkes in his "Bayit Ḥadash" (to Shulḥan 'Aruk, l.c.), however, thinks that tithing one's earnings is simply a custom and is not obligatory either under the Mosaic or under the rabbinical law. The whole of the tithe must be given to the poor; and no part of it may be appropriated to any other religious purpose (Shulḥan 'Aruk, l.c., Isserles' gloss).

I know some churches hold special collections for various charities. They then give the total donated to the charities. That prevents confusion about who is getting what, and no one can question if the church is making a profit by raising money for charity. Historically, the Catholic practice of Peter's Pence was meant to support charity; but recently we've seen the Vatican using part of that money for its own purposes. I applaud the original idea and think they need to return to putting it into practice. If I were a Catholic, I'd object and would not contribute. I could donate to charity on my own and know it went to charity. Story here: Is the Vatican misleading donors? Peter’s Pence, explained..