I'd like to have a calm, rational conversation about End Times...anyone?

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Naomi25

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then you need a diff term, other than AT wadr, bc AT is about what you can demonstrate, the fruit is all that matters there.

i agree, yet we do this all the time nonetheless, very similar to your assumptions at Absolute Truth in fact. Everyone does this, bc we have to; we all make assumptions, thousands a day prolly, and the joke about them is strictly cute tv, at least in that context, the general one. We have expectations too, and generally speaking we define God by them...which is why i asked about your expectations.

Bc obviously if we differ @ AT we will differ @ God too, right, i mean AT is defined and we are not agreeing on what it means lol.
But the fruit can easily be defined, right

so, i don't wanna put too fine a point on that, you can avoid the Q entirely or answer it for yourself,
but imo just remember that Free Beer Tomorrow is a joke ok
i mean you might note that you are reluctant to confess what you should be the most proud of here, seems like anyway? Verifying that you cannot define God is great though, don't get me wrong. Only now the rest of Determinism has no thread to hang from, see. And insisting upon a bad def of AT is just a symptom, wadr.

i mean, if your beliefs are ATs then mine are too, right? :)

no one knows where they go when they die
all go to the same place
you and your sons will be here with me
no one has ever gone up to heaven except He Who came down from it

etc

Again you seem to wander off into areas that make little to no sense. "free beer tomorrow"? Joke or not, I have no idea what you are talking about. But I suppose that matters little.
You seem to be focusing on the fact that AT is only what you demonstrate or prove. Which, I get in a way, but I'm asking you to take a step back. God gives us the bible. And in the bible he reveals himself to us. And he tells us that we can also know him through his creation. We can 'see' him and know him. The certainty of this becomes more than just 'belief'...it becomes a foundational truth for us, a truth we build everything else on.

i agree, i was not doing that; that was not the standard. The standard was Absolute Truth. (Which btw God can still fit as long as the definition is "unknown," in a neat little trick even Atheists have a hard time disagreeing with--i'll see if i can dig it up) but anyway, this is why i invoked the fruit, you will know them by their fruit.

hence a statement of the expected payoff will be an approximation of the knowledge of God
I'm sorry...either you made zero sense then, or you're making zero sense now. Why can't you ever just say something plainly?
First you say that "So my reply to your Q "Does God exist?" i could pretty confidently say "no," if for no other reason than that you have not defined God."
Now you say that you agree with me that 'God can exist without our needing to define him' but we have to have our fruit known? That it all depends on our fruit, that you're invoking "the fruit"....??!!


hopefully we have at least realized the issue there; he can embrace it and accept it better as a grilled cheese sandwich than an AT.
We are clear on that now, i hope. AT is defined, and that is not it.
So...that which the bible tells us about God..basically what God reveals to us about himself...is no better than a grilled cheese sandwich.
Got it.

Beliefs that cannot be proven cannot be Absolute Truths, right?
Now they can be convictions, you should def be convicted imo, but as we might see i guess we differ there too
actually that was your God, you were asking me if i believed in your God, what you are about to do below there, once again; having rejected my definition, see. How 'bout we discuss that one? :)
lots of gods, different classes of gods even, all acknowledged by God.
The same One Who wrote "No Son of Man may die for another's sins?"

you don't think you have a definition of God, Naomi? Expectations of God?

I should definitely be convicted. But convicted of what? Convicted of a cheese sandwich? Convicted of something that only has a 40% chance of being true?
Or does the bible lead us to conclude that we can, with conviction, believe in God's existence, with 100% certainty? That we can base our life, all our other 'beliefs' upon that certainty? Hmmm? Or do you think the bible is back to cheese sandwich status when it comes to God...?

And no..lots of demons, masquerading as gods, perhaps. If you truly think there are many gods out there, then you don't, actually, believe the bible at all, and why are we even talking?

ok, we'll see if you are in fact convicted of your belief next if you like;
but you aren't gonna like, ok.

Yes, you need to make up fantasies, and help God with His promises, just like the rest of us i guess

the verses that you have not bothered to list, i notice, while skipping over the ones i posted, tra-la. Ok, what vv Naomi.
Just apply them all to after the light dawns, as opposed to before or whatever.
Move heaven from after you have physically died to after you have died to self, daily.
Verses I have given you before and you've ignored, so I wonder why a second time might lead me somewhere new?

or i mean bam post a v and let's see;
and then i get to post one, k? and you have to explain your position on it

i am happy to keep coming back here until the fact that you do not get to arbitrate the definitions becomes clear, Naomi, but understand that if you are not convicted already this is going to knock out one of your three legs, ok, expose its absence or whatever. seeing how you might have been convinced without being convicted is not a pleasant thing, alright. I say 'might have' bc you decline to respond at my definition of God there, so that i might know, and pls note that i am responding unequivocally to yours.

God never promised you Death, More Abundantly, like everyone is obsessed with, and Scripture makes it plain, more than plain, that you are not promised anything after you physically die, unless you choose to deliberately misunderstand
the dead know nothing

Samuel was brought up from the earth
13The king said to her, “Do not be afraid. What do you see?” And the woman said to Saul, “I see a god coming up out of the earth.”


If I have time today I might put together a list of verses that talk about life after death.
 

Naomi25

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And he said, “Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.” 43 And he said to him, “Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in paradise.” – Luke 23:42-43

Clearly Jesus is telling the thief that he can expect to be somewhere good when he died...that day.

The Rich Man and Lazarus

19 “There was a rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and who feasted sumptuously every day. 20 And at his gate was laid a poor man named Lazarus, covered with sores, 21 who desired to be fed with what fell from the rich man's table. Moreover, even the dogs came and licked his sores. 22 The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried, 23 and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side. 24 And he called out, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus to dip the end of his finger in water and cool my tongue, for I am in anguish in this flame.’ 25 But Abraham said, ‘Child, remember that you in your lifetime received your good things, and Lazarus in like manner bad things; but now he is comforted here, and you are in anguish. 26 And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, in order that those who would pass from here to you may not be able, and none may cross from there to us.’ 27 And he said, ‘Then I beg you, father, to send him to my father's house— 28 for I have five brothers—so that he may warn them, lest they also come into this place of torment.’ 29 But Abraham said, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them hear them.’ 30 And he said, ‘No, father Abraham, but if someone goes to them from the dead, they will repent.’ 31 He said to him, ‘If they do not hear Moses and the Prophets, neither will they be convinced if someone should rise from the dead.’” – Luke 16:19-31

This is just a parable, but it still shows the mindset of the Jewish time and how they thought. They clearly believed (as we can see in the differing beliefs of the Sadducees and Pharisees) that there was something after death.

When once the master of the house has risen and shut the door, and you begin to stand outside and to knock at the door, saying, ‘Lord, open to us,’ then he will answer you, ‘I do not know where you come from.’ 26 Then you will begin to say, ‘We ate and drank in your presence, and you taught in our streets.’ 27 But he will say, ‘I tell you, I do not know where you come from. Depart from me, all you workers of evil!’ 28 In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when you see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God but you yourselves cast out. – Luke 13:25-28

Here we see that what comes after for those who will be in a place of darkness and 'gnashing of teeth', they will be able to see Abraham, Isaac and Jacob...people who are not alive at present. Jesus is, therefore, talking about life after death.

Jesus said to her, “Your brother will rise again.” 24 Martha said to him, “I know that he will rise again in the resurrection on the last day.” 25 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. Whoever believes in me, though he die, yet shall he live, 26 and everyone who lives and believes in me shall never die. – John 11:23-25


But Jesus answered them, “You are wrong, because you know neither the Scriptures nor the power of God. 30 For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven. 31 And as for the resurrection of the dead, have you not read what was said to you by God: 32 ‘I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? He is not God of the dead, but of the living.” – Matt 22:29-32

Those 2 are pretty self explanatory.

The tombs also were opened. And many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised, 53 and coming out of the tombs after his resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many. – Matt 27:52-53

The resurrection of Jesus was so remarkable that there was a "mini" event that foreshadows what will happen upon his second coming.

But when you give a feast, invite the poor, the crippled, the lame, the blind, 14 and you will be blessed, because they cannot repay you. For you will be repaid at the resurrection of the just.” – Luke 14:13-14

Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice 29 and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment. – John 5:28-29


But this I confess to you, that according to the Way, which they call a sect, I worship the God of our fathers, believing everything laid down by the Law and written in the Prophets, 15 having a hope in God, which these men themselves accept, that there will be a resurrection of both the just and the unjust.- Acts 24:14-15

For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we shall certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his. – Rom 6:5

Now if Christ is proclaimed as raised from the dead, how can some of you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? 13 But if there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised. – 1 Cor 15:12-13


But in fact Christ has been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For as by a man came death, by a man has come also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ. – 1 Cor 15:20-23

Again, self explanatory.



42 So is it with the resurrection of the dead. What is sown is perishable; what is raised is imperishable. 43 It is sown in dishonor; it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness; it is raised in power. 44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. 45 Thus it is written, “The first man Adam became a living being” the last Adam became a life-giving spirit. 46 But it is not the spiritual that is first but the natural, and then the spiritual. 47 The first man was from the earth, a man of dust; the second man is from heaven. 48 As was the man of dust, so also are those who are of the dust, and as is the man of heaven, so also are those who are of heaven. 49 Just as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the man of heaven.


Mystery and Victory


50 I tell you this, brothers: flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51 Behold! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed. 53 For this perishable body must put on the imperishable, and this mortal body must put on immortality.- 1 Cor 15:42-53


This passage is pretty fantastic, and paints such a picture, it leaves me wondering how you can deny that something will happen at his return or upon our deaths. I mean...what on earth do you suppose it's talking about??

that I may know him and the power of his resurrection, and may share his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, 11 that by any means possible I may attain the resurrection from the dead. – Phil 3:10-11

and their talk will spread like gangrene. Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus, 18 who have swerved from the truth, saying that the resurrection has already happened. They are upsetting the faith of some. – 2 Tim 2:17-18

False teaching on the resurrection is not new, but we can see that it's still a foregone conclusion that it will happen.

Therefore let us leave the elementary doctrine of Christ and go on to maturity, not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God, 2 and of instruction about washings, the laying on of hands, the resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment. – Heb 6:1-2

The writer of Hebrews considers the doctrine of the resurrection to be an "elementary" doctrine. As I said..foregone conclusion.

Then I saw thrones, and seated on them were those to whom the authority to judge was committed. Also I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5 The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is the one who shares in the first resurrection! Over such the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and they will reign with him for a thousand years. – Rev 20:4-6
 

bbyrd009

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If you truly think there are many gods out there, then you don't, actually, believe the bible at all, and why are we even talking?
I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.
Verses I have given you before and you've ignored, so I wonder why a second time might lead me somewhere new?
so it's easier to post that than the verse, Naomi? You don't know the def of AT but your defs at those vv are beyond reproach? no offense, but i have better things to do, ok?

i mean no offense, but i just tracked our whole convo back, and the closest ref i get to Scripture is
leaving your clothes behind when you're beamed up.
in post #218, 10 days ago. Along with a likely deficient ref of "sea" to "turmoil" but that is understandable, so i'll just exclude it.
If i missed one lemme know ok.

now, you wanna dance around and pretend i'm off on a lark now, even though you obviously had some notion of being "beamed up" ten days ago that you suddenly don't feel is pertinent when i ask about "fruit," that's fine with me ok, i'll take my grilled cheese to go :)
 
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bbyrd009

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Again, self explanatory.
yes, just like Absolute Truth. I know you paid good money for your bad definitions, ok, and i am not inclined to disabuse you of your beliefs, Naomi. If you read that God is going to beam you up in those vv, then that is fine with me; although i might ask why this wasn't forthcoming when i asked. But i'm not asking, ok, rhetorical question only.
if you believe it, it must be the absolute truth, right?
If I have time today I might put together a list of verses that talk about life after death.
wadr you might be better served to review that post, and witness all the shucking and jiving you're doing to avoid important points.

I point out that AT is defined, so you goto "free beer tomorrow" and pretend you don't get me there; and if i were so gullible as to have 'splained that like i have AT, you know what would happen next, Naomi?

like i said, no offense but i have better things to do ok?
 
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brakelite

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bbyrd009, The Christian hope wasn't targeted toward 'coming up' out of the water. Not to deny the reality of a new resurrected life, but as Paul said, a Christian without hope of a future glory is a life of misery. If there is no reward...no new earth or new heaven...no eternal life without pain, sorrow, death, or fear...then to what end did the Son of God die? To what purpose is forgiveness of sin if all it pertains to is a 'life more abundant now'? No, the promise, the hope, the certainty of eternity is the reward of faith...the abundant life now is the promise of a life lived in expectation of a life of abundancy then.
 

bbyrd009

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then to what end did the Son of God die?
gee, i dunno, "Life, more abundantly?"

plus i never said that there was none, just that i would be running from anyone thinks they can describe it in detail, particularly if they refuse to confront Scripture that suggests differently.
 

bbyrd009

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No, the promise, the hope, the certainty of eternity is the reward of faith...the abundant life now is the promise of a life lived in expectation of a life of abundancy then.
hmm, seems to me the now part is sorely lacking in any testimony relying on then for happiness, which we gotta admit is more or less rampant now; but that is the nature of dialectic writing; statements like 1 Corinthians 15:19 Lexicon: If we have hoped in Christ in this life only, we are of all men most to be pitied. rely on misdirection to make the point that pretty much no one relies on Christ for now, being so consumed with then as we are, as your oh-so-confident statement there indicates, right? "No, the promise, the hope, the certainty..."

So the intent of this v is likely to get a logical thinker bobbing their heads in agreement without realizing that they have abandoned "Life, more abundantly" long time ago. "Life, more abundantly" to us now means "increasing consumerism" anyway, right
Life, more abundantly requires money now lol

And the point that we are all trying to get the part that is supposed to die--our egos, selves, the part that is Separate right now, right--into heaven is all of the evidence one needs to see that their faith is...not where it should be yet.

So then "i can't wait to get to heaven" becomes a statement of lack of faith, originating from the Old Man; a bold declaration that Christ is not understood, let alone heaven, what/where heaven is, etc.

One may as well be saying "i am not saved yet."

see, the truth in the v up there, that cannot be seen until the ego is suppressed, is that once the ego is suppressed you won't be obsessed with going somewhere after you die, bc you will have already become One.

see the implications of
"you and your sons will be here with me."
or maybe reflect on why three (3) of the faithful are tossed into a furnace
(God is an all-consuming fire), but they are cool with it, right.

so why, in the face of all this evidence, do "believers" think they are going to an endless party "in heaven" after they have died?
Why not a raging inferno?
 
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bbyrd009

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the abundant life now is the promise of a life lived in expectation of a life of abundancy then.
pls listen to yourself. The abundant life a believer has now (that practically no one manifests or confesses, that i can see anyway) is a "promise," but the life you may have after you have died is a "certainty," so certain you feel compelled to tell me "no." Assuming you, what, believe the right things or whatever, right. C'mon bl
 

bbyrd009

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The Christian hope wasn't targeted toward 'coming up' out of the water.
no kidding.

how many reading this understood the ritual was inferential of their burial, raise em up real quick lol
Not to deny the reality of a new resurrected life
so you say
but as Paul said, a Christian without hope of a future glory is a life of misery.
wadr that is not what Paul said, and they mostly all seem pretty miserable to me right now
 

bbyrd009

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If there is no reward...no new earth or new heaven
you know that if you were time-traveled back even 100 years and could describe your life now to someone living then
you would most likely be burned for a witch, right

but i guess their reaction to a statement something to the effect that many believers today--100 years later--hope for a rapture would be priceless, huh.
what would be the reaction of the Acts generation to that i wonder?
"oh ya--i live 2000 years from now; some of us believe that too, we still have ppl commit to some date and even give away all their stuff, etc, just like you guys did"
lol
 
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brakelite

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I get what you are saying, and Im not disagreeing, except for one thing. Most Christians are looking for a rosy future in this life. They envision themselves ruling in Israel with Jesus having positions of authority and power, 'seated at the head of the table'. Most do not believe in a heaven, or if they do, they have no concept of going there, at all. But the fact is, that despite we may have an abundant life here and now, or should, we live in a very sick crazy world, steadily getting sicker and crazier by the minute. And like sin, it will be destroyed. The closer we get to Christ, as you say, the more we die to self, the more repugnant the corruptions become, the more we sigh and cry over the abominations done in God's name, and although we wait patiently for the blessed hope to materialise, "even creation itself moans and groans waiting for the manifestation of the sons of God". IOW, creation itself, of which we are a part, cannot help but to long for something better...to be free from the heartache and pain that comes with the territory...despite the life being abundant. Abundant it can be, but we are not promised freedom from pain and sorrow. That particular promise is not yet, but "we still look for a city, whose maker is God".
 
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brakelite

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The abundant life a believer has now (that practically no one manifests or confesses, that i can see anyway)
I lived the last 16 years as a dairy farmer, until I retired a year or so ago. I used to work 7 days a week, sometimes up to 12 hours a day, starting from 4.30 in the morning. I lived with my wife and son in rural NZ. That was tiring, busy, non-stop, always changing, no day the same,...but...
I now am retired, living in Australia with my daughter and son in law, their 6 children, and another daughters eldest son. 11 in all. Both my kids are school teachers, one a principal. MY two eldest grandsons are working full time, the rest at school, except the youngest, who we babysit. This house is CRAZY busy, but we love it. Add to that church life...the numerous visitors and outings associated with having a childrens ministry leader in the house...two lay preachers and Bible school teachers...and the kids belonging to 3 different youth age groups...believe me, there is more going on in our lives now than we have ever experienced. This is abundant. In every respect.

Oh, BTW, in a city with a population larger than the entire country we lived in previous.
 
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Naomi25

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I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.
so it's easier to post that than the verse, Naomi? You don't know the def of AT but your defs at those vv are beyond reproach? no offense, but i have better things to do, ok?
Ok, firstly, please don't pretend that Psalm 82:6 is in anyway talking about what we are talking about. Red herring. It is nothing more than a reference to us as sons of God, heirs with Christ. My point, as you well know, but refuse to acknowledge, is that there is but one GOD. There are not many omnipotent, omnipresent, omniscient Gods out there. There is one.

i mean no offense, but i just tracked our whole convo back, and the closest ref i get to Scripture is
in post #218, 10 days ago. Along with a likely deficient ref of "sea" to "turmoil" but that is understandable, so i'll just exclude it.
If i missed one lemme know ok.
Actually, I wasn't talking about this thread, I was talking about another one: the 9/23/17 Rev 12:5 X #162, #178, #179, #199 and #209.
And I do believe I covered it.


now, you wanna dance around and pretend i'm off on a lark now, even though you obviously had some notion of being "beamed up" ten days ago that you suddenly don't feel is pertinent when i ask about "fruit," that's fine with me ok, i'll take my grilled cheese to go :)
In case you missed my sarcasm, my notion was not of being "beamed up".
But...way to go not explaining your rather strange reference to fruit, which still seemed to come out of nowhere for no particular purpose.
 
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Naomi25

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yes, just like Absolute Truth. I know you paid good money for your bad definitions, ok, and i am not inclined to disabuse you of your beliefs, Naomi. If you read that God is going to beam you up in those vv, then that is fine with me; although i might ask why this wasn't forthcoming when i asked. But i'm not asking, ok, rhetorical question only.
if you believe it, it must be the absolute truth, right?
wadr you might be better served to review that post, and witness all the shucking and jiving you're doing to avoid important points.

I point out that AT is defined, so you goto "free beer tomorrow" and pretend you don't get me there; and if i were so gullible as to have 'splained that like i have AT, you know what would happen next, Naomi?

like i said, no offense but i have better things to do ok?

Again...sarcasm...look it up.
And I note that you have commented on everything except the verses I posted. Yep...I found the time. Knock yourself out.
 

bbyrd009

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There are not many omnipotent, omnipresent, omniscient Gods out there. There is one.
ah, i thot you accepted Jesus as God too
But...way to go not explaining your rather strange reference to fruit, which still seemed to come out of nowhere for no particular purpose.
ah sry, that is the standard by which we are to judge?
of course we are talking future (in your perception anyway) so the fruit itself cannot be judged there, but the expectation of it can; obviously "we hope to all get ground up for dog food" would not be considered very good fruit,
whereas "we know that we are all going to be in heaven with Jesus after we die" might be considered good, etc.
and i've even heard the last referred to as "beam me up" lol, sry if i mistook you there.

so, completing the sentence "i expect that God is going to do _______ (for me)" becomes a kind of witness
 
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