If everyone agreed, there wouldn't be much point to a forum - Agree, or disagree? - LOL

[Episkopos]

Impossible to prove, but easy for you to say.

Will you come now and post some self righteousness in place of that "sample of Grace" ?

Go right ahead.
We're use to it.

Someone who is indoctrinated into following "Pauline" rather than Christ would have little to no ability to understand any purpose of God. You are looking to your own self-interest...and searching for doctrines that accomplish that. Luther obliged and enslaved millions.

But the truth can set you free. The time to repent is getting shorter.

 

[St. SteVen]

SO I AM AT ODDS WITH MY OWN CHURCH> Wish I wasn't because I would feel more secure if I could believe
that I was predestined to be saved.... but I cant. Not any longer.

Fantastic post. Thanks for sharing. I love to hear personal testimony like that.

I believe in eternal security for those with a personal relationship with God.
We cannot by an act of our will undo what only God could do in the first place.
Even in the case of reprobation, it is God's decision.

Are you familiar with Christian Universalism?
Also known as Universal Restoration, Ultimate Redemption, or Universal Reconciliation. (UR in all cases)

Acts 3:21 NIV
Heaven must receive him until the time comes for God to restore everything, as he promised long ago through his holy prophets.

1 John 2:2 NIV
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

Romans 11:32
For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

Titus 2:11 ESV
For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people,

John 1:29 NIV
... The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said,
“Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Someone who is indoctrinated into following "Pauline" rather than Christ would have little to no ability to understand any purpose of God. You are looking to your own self-interest...and searching for doctrines that accomplish that. Luther obliged and enslaved millions.

But the truth can set you free. The time to repent is getting shorter.

so you better hurry and repent.. of your dead works.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Fantastic post. Thanks for sharing. I love to hear personal testimony like that.

I believe in eternal security for those with a personal relationship with God.
We cannot by an act of our will undo what only God could do in the first place.
Even in the case of reprobation, it is God's decision.

Are you familiar with Christian Universalism?
Also known as Universal Restoration, Ultimate Redemption, or Universal Reconciliation. (UR in all cases)

Acts 3:21 NIV
Heaven must receive him until the time comes for God to restore everything, as he promised long ago through his holy prophets.

1 John 2:2 NIV
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

Romans 11:32
For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

Titus 2:11 ESV
For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people,

John 1:29 NIV
... The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said,
“Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

What did Jesus say must be done in order for this sacrifice to be applied to our behalf?

 

[Episkopos]

"People are to stuck in what they were taught or their religion and their belief system, they can not just learn from others."

I separate myself from this statement. I am not stuck... in part because of the blessing, or perhaps in some cases the curse of forums such as this.

Allow me to explain.

I, was raised on the Presbyterian Church beliefs and teachings. (The history of how my current church jumped ship about 15 years ago from USA to Evagelical is a story for another day) I never gave a single thought to what they were when decades ago my adoptive mom ( birth died and dad remarried and she adopted me) who, for the couple of years or so on Sunday mornings we would go to her RCC and hear a sermon, and wonder in amazement when we got to my Presby church it was basically the same thing. So, eventually when we moved to the new house and joined the Presby church just over the hill.. mom converted becasue she believes in one
religion in a family.

Before had, when I went through communicants class to join the church I honestly can say I don't remember much of what was taught... That would have been 63 years ago.

But all Presbyterian churches are the same today , as yesterday and they still hang their hats on Westminster Confession of Faith which does include predestination and very little is ever talked of on "free will"

So I had gone for most of my life... until that last 10 or 12 years in "my" security that I was one that God predestined... even though it is not really said like that ... at least in the churches I attended... it was more or less assumed.

So enter the Arminian / Calvinist debates that I have been following with rapt attention.

Reasonably secure in my churches beliefs... For the first time in my life I read what Calvin said about predestination.

Calvin: Predestination

Calvin on predestination: To his glory, God determined before all creation those who would obtain eternal life, and those who would receive eternal death.

www.theologian-theology.com

I saw this and while I do realize that God draws people to Jesus... John 6:44... I see nowhere that it ws ever said
He would only draw those he selected from before the creation of the world....

And the thoughts that He would bar access to salvation and send to eternal death... (some say damnation)

I just SMH at this.

SO I AM AT ODDS WITH MY OWN CHURCH> Wish I wasn't because I would feel more secure if I could believe
that I was predestined to be saved.... but I cant. Not any longer.

No one is predestined to be saved. A few are predestined to be holy. God knows His own...the ones that will forsake the popular religion and follow Him OUTSIDE the camp....bearing His reproach. Few indeed have that kind of faith.

Salvation besides that is up to how we behave towards others...in the fear of God.

We are to love others as ourselves...the royal law.

If we would be perfected in Christ to walk as He walked...we need to offer ourselves to God as a living sacrifice to be translated into the kingdom realm by the Spirit. From there we walk above sin in the perfection of Christ. ....according to the gospel.

Jesus came to set us free.

 

[Behold]

its amazing

St. Steven got mad at me because I was calling Epi out.. Yet when Epi so called calls others out.. He does nto say a word.

Epi was caught red handed slandering a dear sister.. Yet not a word of chastening to Epi..

Does St Steven write anything but "click bait" Topics that tend to slightly insult Christianity or similar.?

Fair question.

Perhaps a "christian" forum should be a place where a new Christian's faith wont be destroyed and replaced by "you can lose your salvation" and "doing works is doing righteousness", Cult theology.

 

[Behold]

No one is predestined to be saved. A few are predestined to be holy.

So, you are teaching some bizarre idea that to be born again, does not mean that all the born again are to exist as "be holy as i am holy" .......but just the pre-chosen to be holy?

That's some wild bible twisting you are inventing., but i give you credit, as i know you've been taught this stuff.
You just re-peat it.

 

[Hepzibah]

For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate *to be conformed* to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

"No one is predestined to be saved. A few are predestined to be holy."

That is my understanding too Epi.

 

[Episkopos]

So, you are teaching some bizarre idea that to be born again, does not mean that all the born again are to exist as "be holy as i am holy" .......but just the pre-chosen to be holy?

That's some wild bible twisting you are inventing., but i give you credit, as i know you've been taught this stuff.
You just re-peat it.

There is this book called "the Bible"...that you could learn a lot from.

God CHOOSES the holy....the elect. He doesn't choose who will be saved. Many are called FEW are chosen.

Notice this...(this part comes from the bible) Paul wrote this although you probably will not understand it.

Eph. 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

 

[Behold]

God CHOOSES the holy.

Actually,

Jesus who is God......virgin born, "Came to save sinners", and once they have been born again, as "made righteous", their Holiness is equal to Gods.., Spiritually.

Try to understand that God "Justifies the UNGODLY" into Born again Righteousness.
This is the Grace of God.
This is :Salvation

God transforms, "all have sinned", into "one with God" by SALVATION and the Gift of Righteousness.
This becoming a "new creation" in Christ...... is ALL OF GOD....., through "faith".
We give God our faith in Christ and God transforms us into "the righteousness of God, in Christ", - "new Creation"... "born again"

Notice : Philippians 1:6

However, Their walk of discipleship, that occurs subsequent to being made THE righteousness of God in Christ".... is their "course", as Paul explains. And this is a daily learning experience, that has no bearing on their Eternal righteousness/holiness.
But it does have everything to do with their dedication and commitment.

 

[Behold]

Eph. 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

Well, Calvin took that verse and redesigned it as "God causes some to be born again, and God causes some to go to Hell, and decided this before they were born".

We reject this madness, this theological cross denying insanity.

And we instead find that there is a context to Eph 1:4.

The context is the core understanding of the verse.. and that is...

The FOREKNOWLEDGE of God, is what is KNOWN...

its God's Foreknowledge, His all knowing regarding everything at all times.... that KNEW before we were born, who is going to be born again.
Who would CHOOSE CHRIST by Free Will and who wont ever choose Christ.

What Calvin did, and what his theological groupies do, is not understand that God KNOWING what is going to happen (Foreknowledge) is not the same as God CAUSING it to happen,

A Calvinist, has a mental block, a mental stronghold that does not allow them to comprehend that God's Knowing everything, is not the same as God causing = "pre-destination".

Calvin could not comprehend this, and ended up with a Cross denying Theology that has ruined a lot of Christianity for 500 yrs.

 

[Episkopos]

Well, Calvin took that verse and redesigned it as "God causes some to be born again, and God causes some to go to Hell, and decided this before they were born".

No. Most born again believers will not be saints. Being born again is a calling into the higher walk. Most don't even believe in anything other than their own religious ideas. Having begun in the Spirit many many remain in the wilderness walk in unbelief until they die. What if you warn them, as I do? They will not listen, but just stiffen their necks...just like the Israelites did.

We reject this madness, this theological cross denying insanity.

Go to God and offer yourself as a living sacrifice. Maybe God will crucify your flesh so you can ACTUALLY know what the power of the cross can do.

And we instead find that there is a context to Eph 1:4.

The context is the core understanding of the verse.. and that is...

The FOREKNOWLEDGE of God, is what is KNOWN...

its God's Foreknowledge, His all knowing regarding everything at all times.... that KNEW before we were born, who is going to be born again.

What Calvin did, and what his groupies do, is not understand that God KNOWING what is going to happen (Foreknowledge) is not the same as God CAUSING it to happen,

That has to do with who is saved. If we don't obey the law...we will perish. If we do, we will be saved. If we believe in Jesus we will be saved. But the holy are chosen from among the righteous...as the Bride. We don't have any say on who is the bride of Christ. That is about election.

You have a simplistic 2 dimensional understanding....carnal. God has WAYS (plural) as in...you have not known My ways.

So you will have to come out of your limited mind to get it.

A Calvinist, has a mental block, a mental stronghold that does not allow them to comprehend that God's Knowing everything, is not the same as God "pre-destination".

Calvin could not comprehend this, and ended up with a Cross denying Theology that has ruined a lot of Christianity for 500 yrs.

I'm not a Calvinist. But Calvin had a few things right where the saints are concerned. Not the righteous. He's wrong about salvation.

No man who becomes popular has any depth of truth. People HATE the truth. Just look at yourself. People will gravitate to an unbalanced view...every time. The truth has not crossed the mind of the carnally minded.

Do you think John the Baptist chose from his mother's womb to be filled with the Spirit? That God didn't choose John for His purpose?

Please explain.

The elect are those who are permitted entry into the higher walk....to walk IN Christ...to walk as He walked.

 

[ChristisGod]

So, you are teaching some bizarre idea that to be born again, does not mean that all the born again are to exist as "be holy as i am holy" .......but just the pre-chosen to be holy?

That's some wild bible twisting you are inventing., but i give you credit, as i know you've been taught this stuff.
You just re-peat it.

ditto thats calvinism-

don't you know the rest of us lowly ones were not predestined to be self righteous touting a false humility.

its narcissism.

 

[Behold]

No. Most born again believers will not be saints

Born again believers are already Saints.

Here is some of what a born again believer has become.

Saint (born again)
Temple of the Holy Spirit
Brethren
Made Righteous
Heir of God
Joint Heir with Jesus
Having eternal life.
In Christ
One with God
Seated in Heavenly places.

and so much more...

Go to God and offer yourself as a living sacrifice. Maybe God will crucify your flesh so you can ACTUALLY know what the power of the cross can do.

You meant to say..."present your body as a living sacrifice to God, which is your reasonable service".......

And of course it is reasonable to present our body this way, as God has given the Body of His Son for us, and in that we are going to Heaven, and have 24/7 access to All that God has, All that God is, and All that God can do.

So, its beyond REASONABLE for us to be willing to Give to God our LIVES as well as our service......

That has to do with who is saved. If we don't obey the law...we will perish.

"Christ is the END OF THE LAW..... for righteousness, to everyone who BELIEVES"

The born again are "NOT UNDER THE LAW....but under Grace".

"Christ has redeemed us "From the CURSE OF THE LAW"..

Episkopos....You are under the curse of the law, if you are trying to keep it, thinking you are going to heaven, by doing so.

You have a simplistic 2 dimensional understanding....carnal. God has WAYS (plural) as in...you have not known My ways.

I know His Ways., and i personally know God's Way.

John 14:6

So you will have to come out of your limited mind to get it.

If you had my theological understanding regarding Soteriology, as "Paul's Doctrine"..., then your videos and posts would not be harmful to Real Believers.

He's wrong about salvation.

He was wrong about 'pre-destined", as his theology teaches that God causes some to go to Hell, and they never had the FREE WILL to Chose Christ, instead, for themselves.
So, that is a demonic theology, he created.
The other one is that his theology teaches that the Cross is not given to the World, as John 3:16, but its limited to the pre-chosen.

That theology is so Insulting to the Cross of Christ, that even the Devil has to applaud, and he should as He created it through Calvin.

No man who becomes popular has any depth of truth. People HATE the truth. Just look at yourself.

I love the Truth.
When you start teaching some, regarding Christ's Cross, and God's Grace, then that'll be wonderful.

Do you think John the Baptist chose from his mother's womb to be filled with the Spirit?

In your verse.....= "filled with the spirit", is the same idea as David saying..>"take not thy Holy Spirit from me'.

So, that is an OT type of interaction with the Holy Spirit anointing.

The HS came and went, as an anointing... Even Saul had this, but God took it away..

Here is another....>"the word of God came to Elijah"

See all that?
All of those are a TYPE, they are an anointing... but not the same as : "you must be born again" by the Holy Spirit., as that is God rejoining Himself to the BELIEVER, by Spiritual Union.
That's DIFFERENT.

 

[ChristisGod]

Basically, you are saying that no one is an example of a disciple online? Different versions of the truth? You seem to be promoting different cults...that follow local leaders with NO regard whatsoever to the church elsewhere. No wonder there are thousands of denominations.

Is the truth like a supermarket whereby you choose what you want to believe? Is it only based on whatever produce is available in a given store?

Fortunately, because of the internet, we can shop online and get whatever is available in the whole world. We are not limited to whatever limitations men impose on the truth.

The truth is available...even to people in small towns who are stuck with un-enlightened clergymen.

The there is the bible that can be properly understood by the Holy Spirit...in spite of what a popular religious ideology wants you to believe.

Nice try I said a forum is not a church. I said nothing about born again believers who are disciples being online. If that’s the case then my online golf forum is a church , my online gardening forum is a church because I know Christians who participate on them.

Absurd

 

[Episkopos]

"Christ is the END OF THE LAW..... for righteousness, to everyone who BELIEVES"

The born again are "NOT UNDER THE LAW....but under Grace".

"Christ has redeemed us "From the CURSE OF THE LAW"..

Episkopos....You are under the curse of the law, if you are trying to keep it, thinking you are going to heaven, by doing so.

I post this to show how a dishonest reading is undertaken.

A dishonest reading will highlight the wrong words and fully ignore the context...to promote error.

So instead of the end of the law for righteousness... @Behold has just the "end of the law for all who believe"...thus promoting a lawless Christ. Jesus said He came to fulfill the law and that it would remain till all was accomplished. Paul said that those who walk in the Spirit fulfill the law.

So then people who are lawless will be judged as being lawless with the lawless. God is not a respecter of persons but gives everyone according to his/her own ways.

Paul is NOT understood because He is ALWAYS speaking either about the higher walk or in it. So mimicking Paul and parroting his words makes a person delusional....unless there is a real power and witness of that divine walk in Christ.

 

[Behold]

I post this to show how a dishonest reading is undertaken.

I posted the verses.
Its not a 'reading." until you misread it and wrongly define it., again.

"Christ is the End of the Law for Righteosness to everyone who Believes":

"Christ has redeemed us (the born again) from the CURSE of the LAW".""

These are NT verses.

So instead of the end of the law for righteousness...@Behold has just the "end of the law for all who believe"..

""""Christ is the End of the LAW for righteousness, """"as the "law came by Moses and Grace and Truth came by Jesus The Christ.""

There is no LAW or Commandment that can give righteousness. All they can do is define you as unrighteous., and that is why you go the the CROSS for forgiveness, and find God's Grace and "the Gift of Salvation">

Listen,

"Christ is the mediator of THE NEW Covenant, the New Testament".

He, Christ, the Blood Atonement, is the change.......because He is the NEW Covenant.

The Law is OLD Covenant 'moses"..

.thus promoting a lawless Christ. Jesus said He came to fulfill the law and that it would remain till all was accomplished.

The Law is still in effect, if you are an unbeliever, as you are still under the Law and still under the Curse.

But if you are born again, then = "Christ has redeemed you from the CURSE of the LAW".

The born again "are NOT UNDER THE LAW..... but under GRACE".

So then people who are lawless will be judged as being lawless.

Unbelievers are judged here., while they are breathing.

John 3:36

After they die they are found in "2nd Death". = Hell then the Lake of Fire., is their eternal LIFE.

Paul is NOT understood because He is ALWAYS speaking either about the higher walk or in it

You created the phrase "higher walk",, that is your vocabulary, that is your semantics and nomenclature..
I suspect you "borrowed" that from your commentaries.

Paul however, teaches, "Christ always Gives me the VICTORY". "I can do all things THROUGH Christ".

 

[Grailhunter]

I fellowship with the Baptists, the Lutherans, the Pentecosts, the Catholics, the Glad Tidings Assembly of God, the Moravian Church and nearly a dozen non-denominational churches and I have had Mormon and Jewish friends from the time I was a kid. So as being tolerant to other beliefs I am more tolerant than most any I know. But I do not subscribe to any one denomination, I am a Christian theologian. I do not expect the theology of any denomination or church to be near perfect nor the people to be perfect.

I fellowship with churches that have moral beliefs and worship God enthusiastically and are friendly and encouraging to one another. But I do draw a line and that line can be to oppose false beliefs that are harmful….some are just wrong and I do not mind explaining they are wrong. But then some beliefs will lead them to Hell….I could just pat them on the back and let them go on their way to Hell….some would call that being nice and I do believe in religious freedom. But as they are being judged to Hell they might wonder why no one warned them.

Then you have beliefs that will not only lead them to Hell but if others believe what they say, large groups of people that believe in Christ could be destined for Hell. You have people here on this forum that deny the deity of Christ and conveniently deny the existence of Hell. If I was going to preach that Christ was just a nice guy, I would hope that there was no Hell!

Some preach that we are all robots under the control of God and all of reality is a pre-orchestrated play which alone would just be wrong but imbedded in that, functionally is the belief of OSAS. OSAS is a plan to fail that leads people to Hell.

As a stand alone belief, OSAS is unique in that it is popular with those that do not go to church. LOL I think they know that most Christians would reject that belief. Just as a funny if any one can produce a church that would put Once Saved Always Saved on their sign out front I would like to see it.

To some degree OSAS is like a can of worms ya really cannot nail it down or like a dragon with several heads. Some of them would say a child molester or a murderer that believes in Christ will still go to Heaven, even if he died right after his last victim. Heaven full of evil! WOW…. or some OSAS believers would say if they continued to be immoral after accepting Christ, they really were not saved to begin with. Either way it can lead people to Hell. So do we pat them on back and send them on their way to lead others to Hell?

When I am addressing people I am not expecting to change their minds, I am more concerned with those that read the conversation or debate to give them the opportunity to see right and wrong. And as religious debates go when you oppose someone’s beliefs they tend to get insultive and some become unrelenting on the rudeness. People don't like when you tell them if you keep doing that you are probably going to Hell. And like they say, Truth is the new hate language.

 

[Behold]

So as being tolerant to other beliefs

God does not allow "blind tolerance" as a response to : "love thy neighbor".

The LGBTQ community however, demands that you be "woke" and blindly tolerant of everything under the Sun.

God isn't.
So, that is something to consider.

I do not expect the theology of any denomination or church to be near perfect nor the people to be perfect.

God does expect us to come to the "Unity of the Faith", in perfect Doctrinal understanding.

Just ask Paul.

The reasons forums are on fire with fighting is because this has not happened on them.

This is also why "New Denominations" keep popping up, and "new bibles" keep showing up.

 

[Grailhunter]

God does not allow "blind tolerance" as a response to : "love thy neighbor".

The LGBTQ community however, demands that you be "woke" and blindly tolerant of everything under the Sun.

God isn't.
So, that is something to consider.




God does expect us to come to the "Unity of the Faith", in perfect Doctrinal understanding.

Just ask Paul.

The reasons forums are on fire with fighting is because this has not happened on them.

This is also why "New Denominations" keep popping up, and "new bibles" keep showing up.

I wonder if OSAS is the religion of LGBTQ? LOL

Unity of the Faith....as a Theologian that is the goal but it is also the heart of the problem. People are not going to agree even on the concept of one church. Among Protestants it is a sign of the Anti-Christ...But then how many beliefs did Christ preach? The Catholics would like to think they are the One Church but they literally drug Christ through the sewers to the point that Protestants will not give the modern Catholic Church a chance. Granted I would not give ya two cents for the Vatican but the Catholics are good people as a whole.