If Jesus was the Son of God before he became man...

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DaChaser

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then why does the Bible say that he became the Son of God only when he became man?

The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and power of the Most High will overshadow you; THEREFORE also the Holy One who is to be born will be called the Son of God.

For the reason that he became a man he was called the Son of God, the Bible says so. There was no Son of God before that, that is why it is never mentioned in the Old Testament, because the Son of God was and is the Spirit of God who became flesh.
Jesus was the Eternal word of the father, as he existed always as God along with the father, before he came to earth as a man!
 

ChristisGod

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then why does the Bible say that he became the Son of God only when he became man?

The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and power of the Most High will overshadow you; THEREFORE also the Holy One who is to be born will be called the Son of God.

For the reason that he became a man he was called the Son of God, the Bible says so. There was no Son of God before that, that is why it is never mentioned in the Old Testament, because the Son of God was and is the Spirit of God who became flesh.


John 1:1-3
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God.
All things came into being by Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.

John 1:14
14
And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory

These verses in John’s prologue reveal the pre existence of the Eternal Word/Son who was God and became flesh. He was the Creator of all things. Nothing came into existence apart from Him. He is before everything that has a beginning.



John 1:15
15
John bore witness of Him, and cried out, saying, "This was He of whom I said, 'He who comes after me has a higher rank than I, for He existed before me.'"



John 1:30
"This is He on behalf of whom I said, 'After me comes a Man who has a higher rank than I, for He existed before me.'

John the Baptist was 6 months older than Jesus Christ. So it is impossible for Christ to be before him unless Jesus pre existed.


John 3:13
No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven — the Son of Man.

Again we see the pre existence of the Son and where He declares that He came from heaven to earth.


John 3:17
"For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world should be saved through Him.

This verse shows the Son was sent from heaven by the Father to the earth.



John 6:38
For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me.

Human beings come into existence when they are born into this world, but we surely do not come from Heaven.

John 8:23
"You are from beneath I Am from above, you are of this world I Am not of this world"



John 8:58
Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I Am."

Here we see that Jesus lets the Pharisees know that He existed as a person before Abraham was born. Once again we see Jesus claiming to be the Eternal God.


Jhn 16:28 I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father.


John 17:5
And now, Father, glorify Me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed.

Here we see the Son declared that He shared the same Glory together with the Father prior to creation. This passage makes Him equal with the Father as the Eternal God.



John 17:24
"Father, I desire that they also, whom Thou hast given Me, be with Me where I am, in order that they may behold My glory, which Thou hast given Me; for Thou didst love Me before the foundation of the world.


Below we read it was the Son who already existed as the Son which the Father sent into the world.

John 3:16-17
"For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish, but have eternal life. 17 "For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world should be saved through Him.


1 Cor 15:47 The first man [is] of the earth, earthy: the second man [is] the Lord from heaven.


Gal 4:4
But when the fulness of the time came, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the Law,


1 John 4:14
And we have beheld and bear witness that the Father has sent the Son to be the Savior of the world.


In 1 John 3:8 we see that the Son of Gods appearance or manifestation was for this very purpose, that He might destroy the works of the devil. The verb φανερόω means to make manifest, appeared, to make visible or to bring to light something that was previously hidden. This clearly means that Jesus had already existed as the Son of God and He was made manifest or visible to us.

Col 1:13-18
For He delivered us from the domain of darkness, and transferred us to the kingdom of His beloved Son, 14 in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins. 15 And He is the image of the invisible God, the first-born of all creation. 16 For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities — all things have been created by Him and for Him. 17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.

Heb 1:2-3
in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world. 3 And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power.

Heb 1:8
But of the Son He says,
"Thy throne, O God, is forever and ever,


Heb 5:7-8
In the days of His flesh, He offered up both prayers and supplications with loud crying and tears to the One able to save Him from death, and He was heard because of His piety. 8 Although He was a Son, He learned obedience from the things which He suffered.

The question is who or what was He before the days of His flesh? It is obvious that He pre existed before His birth(days of His flesh) as the Son.

The Father sent the Son into this world and we know this as the Incarnation. Meaning God became flesh( a man). Since the Son is God, the 2nd Person of the Trinity scripture calls the Son- God manifest in the flesh.


hope this helps !!!
 

101G

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John 1:1-3
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God.
All things came into being by Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.

John 1:14
14
And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory

These verses in John’s prologue reveal the pre existence of the Eternal Word/Son who was God and became flesh. He was the Creator of all things. Nothing came into existence apart from Him. He is before everything that has a beginning.



John 1:15
15
John bore witness of Him, and cried out, saying, "This was He of whom I said, 'He who comes after me has a higher rank than I, for He existed before me.'"



John 1:30
"This is He on behalf of whom I said, 'After me comes a Man who has a higher rank than I, for He existed before me.'

John the Baptist was 6 months older than Jesus Christ. So it is impossible for Christ to be before him unless Jesus pre existed.


John 3:13
No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven — the Son of Man.

Again we see the pre existence of the Son and where He declares that He came from heaven to earth.


John 3:17
"For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world should be saved through Him.

This verse shows the Son was sent from heaven by the Father to the earth.



John 6:38
For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me.

Human beings come into existence when they are born into this world, but we surely do not come from Heaven.

John 8:23
"You are from beneath I Am from above, you are of this world I Am not of this world"



John 8:58
Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I Am."

Here we see that Jesus lets the Pharisees know that He existed as a person before Abraham was born. Once again we see Jesus claiming to be the Eternal God.


Jhn 16:28 I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father.


John 17:5
And now, Father, glorify Me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed.

Here we see the Son declared that He shared the same Glory together with the Father prior to creation. This passage makes Him equal with the Father as the Eternal God.



John 17:24
"Father, I desire that they also, whom Thou hast given Me, be with Me where I am, in order that they may behold My glory, which Thou hast given Me; for Thou didst love Me before the foundation of the world.


Below we read it was the Son who already existed as the Son which the Father sent into the world.

John 3:16-17
"For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish, but have eternal life. 17 "For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world should be saved through Him.


1 Cor 15:47 The first man [is] of the earth, earthy: the second man [is] the Lord from heaven.


Gal 4:4
But when the fulness of the time came, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the Law,


1 John 4:14
And we have beheld and bear witness that the Father has sent the Son to be the Savior of the world.


In 1 John 3:8 we see that the Son of Gods appearance or manifestation was for this very purpose, that He might destroy the works of the devil. The verb φανερόω means to make manifest, appeared, to make visible or to bring to light something that was previously hidden. This clearly means that Jesus had already existed as the Son of God and He was made manifest or visible to us.

Col 1:13-18
For He delivered us from the domain of darkness, and transferred us to the kingdom of His beloved Son, 14 in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins. 15 And He is the image of the invisible God, the first-born of all creation. 16 For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities — all things have been created by Him and for Him. 17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.

Heb 1:2-3
in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world. 3 And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power.

Heb 1:8
But of the Son He says,
"Thy throne, O God, is forever and ever,


Heb 5:7-8
In the days of His flesh, He offered up both prayers and supplications with loud crying and tears to the One able to save Him from death, and He was heard because of His piety. 8 Although He was a Son, He learned obedience from the things which He suffered.

The question is who or what was He before the days of His flesh? It is obvious that He pre existed before His birth(days of His flesh) as the Son.

The Father sent the Son into this world and we know this as the Incarnation. Meaning God became flesh( a man). Since the Son is God, the 2nd Person of the Trinity scripture calls the Son- God manifest in the flesh.


hope this helps !!!
First, thanks for the scriptures. all those scriptures, but without understanding, and janc is correct. but to substantiate all of your scriptures, I ask you what I asked DaChaser,

the TERM "WITH".
John 1:1 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." here Jesus the Word was "WITH" the Father. TWO separate persons ... correct.

scripture, Isaiah 41:4 "Who hath wrought and done it, calling the generations from the beginning? I the LORD, the first, and with the last; I am he."
is this one or two separate persons here in Isaiah 41:4. THE "FIRST" (one person), that is, WITH THE "LAST", (one person). for you have the same term "WITH" as in John 1:1, your answer please.

PICJAG.
101G The "Spiritual Saboteur"
 

DaChaser

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First, thanks for the scriptures. all those scriptures, but without understanding, and janc is correct. but to substantiate all of your scriptures, I ask you what I asked DaChaser,

the TERM "WITH".
John 1:1 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." here Jesus the Word was "WITH" the Father. TWO separate persons ... correct.

scripture, Isaiah 41:4 "Who hath wrought and done it, calling the generations from the beginning? I the LORD, the first, and with the last; I am he."
is this one or two separate persons here in Isaiah 41:4. THE "FIRST" (one person), that is, WITH THE "LAST", (one person). for you have the same term "WITH" as in John 1:1, your answer please.

PICJAG.
101G The "Spiritual Saboteur"
How many persons are God?
 

ChristisGod

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so we can take this as you cannot answer the question... :eek:

PICJAG.
101G The "Spiritual Saboteur"
reread the Scriptures I posted they are self explanatory for those who have been granted eyes to see with 101
 

101G

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reread the Scriptures I posted they are self explanatory for those who have been granted eyes to see with 101
again we say, you have no clue what "With" means in John 1:1, or Isaiah 41:4 consering the Godhead. nor why God said "us" and "our" in Genesis 1:26... I gave you a chance to answer..... well

The Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit- One God, 3 Persons.

Father is not a person, but a title of a person. as with "Son" .... titles not persons.

look untill you can comprehend the word of GOD, that's ok... :D

PICJAG.
101G The "Spiritual Saboteur"
 

ChristisGod

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again we say, you have no clue what "With" means in John 1:1, or Isaiah 41:4 consering the Godhead. nor why God said "us" and "our" in Genesis 1:26... I gave you a chance to answer..... well



Father is not a person, but a title of a person. as with "Son" .... titles not persons.

look untill you can comprehend the word of GOD, that's ok... :D

PICJAG.
101G The "Spiritual Saboteur"
You are in little league, here from the Big League ........................The Greek Experts

Pros in John 1;1

John 1:1

With God pros ‎‎ton ‎‎Theon‎. Though existing eternally with God the ‎Logos ‎was in perfect fellowship with God. ‎Pros ‎with the accusative presents a plane of equality and intimacy, face to face with each other. In 1 John 2:1 we have a like use of ‎pros‎: "We have a Paraclete with the Father" ‎parakleeton ‎‎echomen ‎‎pros ‎‎ton ‎‎patera‎. See ‎prosoopon ‎‎pros ‎‎prosoopon ‎(face to face, 1 Cor 13:12), a triple use of ‎pros‎. There is a papyrus example of ‎pros ‎in this sense to ‎gnooston ‎‎tees ‎‎pros ‎‎alleelous ‎‎suneetheias‎, "the knowledge of our intimacy with one another" (Moulton and Milligan, Vocabulary) which answers the claim of Rendel Harris, Origin of Prologue, p. 8) that the use of ‎pros ‎here and in Mark 6:3 is a mere Aramaism. It is not a classic idiom, but this is Koine, not old Attic. In John 17:5 John has ‎para ‎‎soi ‎the more common idiom.

(from Robertson's Word Pictures in the New Testament, Electronic Database. Copyright © 1997, 2003, 2005, 2006 by Biblesoft, Inc. Robertson's Word Pictures in the New Testament. Copyright © 1985 by Broadman Press.)

John 1:1

Was with God een ‎‎pros ‎‎ton ‎‎Theon‎. Anglo-Saxon version: "mid Gode." Wycliffe: "at God." "With" ‎pros ‎does not convey the full meaning, that there is no single English word which will give it better. The preposition ‎pros‎, which, with the accusative case, donotes motion toward, or direction, is also often used in the New Testament in the sense of with; and that not merely as "being near or beside," but as a living union and communion; implying the active notion of conversation. Thus: "Are not his sisters here with us" ‎pros ‎‎heemas‎, i.e., in social relations with us (Mark 6:3; Matt 13:56). "How long shall I be with you" ‎pros ‎‎humas‎, Mark 9:16). "I sat daily with you" (Matt 26:55). "To be present with the Lord" ‎pros ‎‎ton ‎‎Kurion‎, 2 Cor 5:8). "Abide and winter with you" (1 Cor 16:6). "The eternal life which was with the Father" ‎pros ‎‎ton ‎‎patera‎, 1 John 1:2). Thus John's statement is that the divine Word not only "abode" with the Father from all eternity, but was in the living, active relation of communion with Him.

(from Vincent's Word Studies in the New Testament, Electronic Database. Copyright © 1997, 2003, 2005, 2006 by Biblesoft, Inc. All rights reserved.)



John 1:1
The Word was with God. The word "with" is from a preposition meaning literally "facing." Thus the Word is a Person facing God the Father. The article appears before the word "God" in the Greek, which indicates that the First Person of the Trinity is meant. Thus, John is speaking of the fellowship between the Word, Jesus Christ, and the Father, a fellowship that existed from all eternity and will exist to all eternity, and which was never broken except at that dark mysterious moment at Calvary when the Son cried, "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?"

(from Wuest's Word Studies from the Greek New Testament, Copyright 1940-55 by Wm. B. Eerdmans Publishing Co. Copyrights © renewed 1968-73 by Jeannette I. Wuest. All rights reserved.)


PROS

· with the acc[usative] of a person, after verbs of remaining, dwelling, tarrying, etc. (which require one to be conceived of as always turned towards one)...after EIMI...Jn i.1 (Thayer).

· be (in company) with someone...J 1:1f (BAGD).

· a marker of association, often with the implication of interrelationships...'the Word was with God' Jn 1:1 (Louw & Nida)

hope this helps !!!
 

101G

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ou are in little league, here from the Big League ........................The Greek Experts
ok, please explain this verse. Isaiah 41:4 "Who hath wrought and done it, calling the generations from the beginning? I the LORD, the first, and with the last; I am he."

now tell us Christophany, is this ONE PERSON, or TWO Person, the "First", and the "Last". well your answer please.

PICJAG.
101G The "Spiritual Saboteur"
 

ChristisGod

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ok, please explain this verse. Isaiah 41:4 "Who hath wrought and done it, calling the generations from the beginning? I the LORD, the first, and with the last; I am he."

now tell us Christophany, is this ONE PERSON, or TWO Person, the "First", and the "Last". well your answer please.

PICJAG.
101G The "Spiritual Saboteur"
no thanks lets stick with (pros) in the Greek - John 1:1
 

101G

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is not the Lord Jesus the "Word" the same today, yesterday, and for ever more? is he not the same? and is he as you say the second person in the Godhead and are we not speaking of the Godhead?...... :p

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101G The "Spiritual Saboteur"
 

101G

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well let us help you out some. one of your definitions states,
"With" ‎pros ‎does not convey the full meaning, that there is no single English word which will give it better.

well at least he's honest. but the bible gives us a clear definition of what with means. but before we get there, one other thing one of your definition stated,
The preposition ‎pros‎, which, with the accusative case, donotes motion toward, or direction, is also often used in the New Testament in the sense of with
now this, would not First would be in a direction ahead of Last?
now, Noah Webster's 1828 Dictionary of American English, "With" prep. [G.] 12. Immediately after.
now this, the Hebrew, WITH, H314 אַחֲרוֹן 'acharown (ach-ar-one') adj.
אַחֲרֹן 'acharon (ach-ar-one') [shortened]
1. hinder.
2. (generally) late or last.
3. (specifically) (as facing the east) western.
[from H309]
KJV: after (-ward), to come, following, hind(-er, -ermost, -most), last, latter, rereward, ut(ter)most.

dose not "after", or hinder", gives direction or motion? is not the Last ... "AFTER" the First? yes, so the First and the Last is speaking of the same person, for in John 1:1 the word was God the same person.

now lets prove this. Philippians 2:6 "Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:"

now Christophany is there anyone equal "WITH" God yes or No.

your answer please.

PICJAG.
101G The "Spiritual Saboteur"
 

DaChaser

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ok, please explain this verse. Isaiah 41:4 "Who hath wrought and done it, calling the generations from the beginning? I the LORD, the first, and with the last; I am he."

now tell us Christophany, is this ONE PERSON, or TWO Person, the "First", and the "Last". well your answer please.

PICJAG.
101G The "Spiritual Saboteur"
was God speaking in genesis as a we or as he or as us?
 

DaChaser

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You are in little league, here from the Big League ........................The Greek Experts

Pros in John 1;1

John 1:1

With God pros ‎‎ton ‎‎Theon‎. Though existing eternally with God the ‎Logos ‎was in perfect fellowship with God. ‎Pros ‎with the accusative presents a plane of equality and intimacy, face to face with each other. In 1 John 2:1 we have a like use of ‎pros‎: "We have a Paraclete with the Father" ‎parakleeton ‎‎echomen ‎‎pros ‎‎ton ‎‎patera‎. See ‎prosoopon ‎‎pros ‎‎prosoopon ‎(face to face, 1 Cor 13:12), a triple use of ‎pros‎. There is a papyrus example of ‎pros ‎in this sense to ‎gnooston ‎‎tees ‎‎pros ‎‎alleelous ‎‎suneetheias‎, "the knowledge of our intimacy with one another" (Moulton and Milligan, Vocabulary) which answers the claim of Rendel Harris, Origin of Prologue, p. 8) that the use of ‎pros ‎here and in Mark 6:3 is a mere Aramaism. It is not a classic idiom, but this is Koine, not old Attic. In John 17:5 John has ‎para ‎‎soi ‎the more common idiom.

(from Robertson's Word Pictures in the New Testament, Electronic Database. Copyright © 1997, 2003, 2005, 2006 by Biblesoft, Inc. Robertson's Word Pictures in the New Testament. Copyright © 1985 by Broadman Press.)

John 1:1

Was with God een ‎‎pros ‎‎ton ‎‎Theon‎. Anglo-Saxon version: "mid Gode." Wycliffe: "at God." "With" ‎pros ‎does not convey the full meaning, that there is no single English word which will give it better. The preposition ‎pros‎, which, with the accusative case, donotes motion toward, or direction, is also often used in the New Testament in the sense of with; and that not merely as "being near or beside," but as a living union and communion; implying the active notion of conversation. Thus: "Are not his sisters here with us" ‎pros ‎‎heemas‎, i.e., in social relations with us (Mark 6:3; Matt 13:56). "How long shall I be with you" ‎pros ‎‎humas‎, Mark 9:16). "I sat daily with you" (Matt 26:55). "To be present with the Lord" ‎pros ‎‎ton ‎‎Kurion‎, 2 Cor 5:8). "Abide and winter with you" (1 Cor 16:6). "The eternal life which was with the Father" ‎pros ‎‎ton ‎‎patera‎, 1 John 1:2). Thus John's statement is that the divine Word not only "abode" with the Father from all eternity, but was in the living, active relation of communion with Him.

(from Vincent's Word Studies in the New Testament, Electronic Database. Copyright © 1997, 2003, 2005, 2006 by Biblesoft, Inc. All rights reserved.)



John 1:1
The Word was with God. The word "with" is from a preposition meaning literally "facing." Thus the Word is a Person facing God the Father. The article appears before the word "God" in the Greek, which indicates that the First Person of the Trinity is meant. Thus, John is speaking of the fellowship between the Word, Jesus Christ, and the Father, a fellowship that existed from all eternity and will exist to all eternity, and which was never broken except at that dark mysterious moment at Calvary when the Son cried, "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?"

(from Wuest's Word Studies from the Greek New Testament, Copyright 1940-55 by Wm. B. Eerdmans Publishing Co. Copyrights © renewed 1968-73 by Jeannette I. Wuest. All rights reserved.)


PROS

· with the acc[usative] of a person, after verbs of remaining, dwelling, tarrying, etc. (which require one to be conceived of as always turned towards one)...after EIMI...Jn i.1 (Thayer).

· be (in company) with someone...J 1:1f (BAGD).

· a marker of association, often with the implication of interrelationships...'the Word was with God' Jn 1:1 (Louw & Nida)

hope this helps !!!
3 Strikes, and now he is out!
 
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