If You Believe Your Denomination Is...

[Brakelite]

markh7: 6 He answered and said unto them, Well has Isaiah prophesied of you hypocrites, as it is written, This people honors me with their lips, but their heart is far from me.
7 Nevertheless in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
8 For laying aside the commandment of God, all of you hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things all of you do.
9 And he said unto them, Full well all of you reject the commandment of God, that all of you may keep your own tradition.

Yes, some traditions can be fun and harmless. But the moment such traditions begin to contradict scripture and in particular God's explicit commandments, they should be immediately discarded.

 

[mjrhealth]

Yes, some traditions can be fun and harmless. But the moment such traditions begin to contradict scripture and in particular God's explicit commandments, they should be immediately discarded.

But they all do, but they also all say "theirs is right", and yet religious men refuse to leave their religions to follow Christ, lest they may discover the truth, because He is the truth.

Joh_8:12 Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.

But who needs Jesus when you have your religion.

Come out of her My people.

Mat 11:16 But whereunto shall I liken this generation? It is like unto children sitting in the markets, and calling unto their fellows,
Mat 11:17 And saying, We have piped unto you, and ye have not danced; we have mourned unto you, and ye have not lamented.
Mat 11:18 For John came neither eating nor drinking, and they say, He hath a devil.
Mat 11:19 The Son of man came eating and drinking, and they say, Behold a man gluttonous, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners. But wisdom is justified of her children.

2000 years later still men refuse, but soon they will have no where to go,

 

[Brakelite]

But they all do, but they also all say "theirs is right", and yet religious men refuse to leave their religions to follow Christ, lest they may discover the truth, because He is the truth.

Joh_8:12 Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.

But who needs Jesus when you have your religion.

Come out of her My people.

Mat 11:16 But whereunto shall I liken this generation? It is like unto children sitting in the markets, and calling unto their fellows,
Mat 11:17 And saying, We have piped unto you, and ye have not danced; we have mourned unto you, and ye have not lamented.
Mat 11:18 For John came neither eating nor drinking, and they say, He hath a devil.
Mat 11:19 The Son of man came eating and drinking, and they say, Behold a man gluttonous, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners. But wisdom is justified of her children.

2000 years later still men refuse, but soon they will have no where to go,

I do love your passion for Jesus. Don't lose it.

 

[mjrhealth]

I do love your passion for Jesus. Don't lose it.

I wish more had it. If everyone gave up their religions and followed after Christ we would have no use for these forums. Than all those pastors and preachers would really have to trust God for their provision.

 

[Philip James]

But they all do, but they also all say "theirs is right", and yet religious men refuse to leave their religions to follow Christ, lest they may discover the truth, because He is the truth

the religion of self is probably the hardest to leave...

All are welcome to come to the wedding feast of the Lamb of God!

The Spirit and the bride say, "Come." Let the hearer say, "Come." Let the one who thirsts come forward, and the one who wants it receive the gift of life-giving water


Peace!

 

[Marymog]

markh7: 6 He answered and said unto them, Well has Isaiah prophesied of you hypocrites, as it is written, This people honors me with their lips, but their heart is far from me.
7 Nevertheless in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
8 For laying aside the commandment of God, all of you hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things all of you do.
9 And he said unto them, Full well all of you reject the commandment of God, that all of you may keep your own tradition.

Holding fast to traditions is not a commandment of men. It is a commandment from scripture.

bible study Mary

 

[Enoch111]

Holding fast to traditions is not a commandment of men. It is a commandment from scripture.

True. But the traditions of the apostles (what was handed down by them, since that is the meaning of the word) were not the same as those of the teachings of others who followed them. Errors crept into the churches very early and were incorporated in the writings of the ECF. So once again, Scripture is the final arbiter of what is a true tradition.

 

[Illuminator]

True. But the traditions of the apostles (what was handed down by them, since that is the meaning of the word) were not the same as those of the teachings of others who followed them. Errors crept into the churches very early and were incorporated in the writings of the ECF. So once again, Scripture is the final arbiter of what is a true tradition.

That is an opinion contradicted by the facts of history. Pitting Scripture against true tradition is a man made Protestant tradition. I challenge you to name these errors and quote the so called errors of the ECF. This forces you to scrape the bottom of the barrel searching for quotes that went against the general consensus, and ignore everything else from the same CF.

Scripture alone was used by every heretic in the patristic period to assert their false doctrines, and the deciding factor in serious controversies such as the Arian and Nestorian controversies was the appeal to what had always been believed (tradition). You have no clue as to what true tradition means, so you are forced to make it up to fit your man made system, and the Protestant tradition of a non-infallible church.
True tradition includes the Authority of Scripture, they are inseparable like 2 wings of a bird.
True tradition also includes the authentic beliefs and practices found in the ante-Nicene historic church, and because not all of it was recorded in Scripture does not mean it is inferior. That's your man made tradition.

Without the tradition of the episcopate, there would be no Bible, (which took 3+ centuries to blossom) so your statement is contradictory, self defeating and ridiculous.

 

[Illuminator]

RULES FOR DISCUSSING EARLY CHURCH FATHERS
​

Rule #1: Check your sources
Rule #2: Absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence.
Rule #3: Scriptural sufficiency v.s. formal sufficiency.
Rule #4: Provisional lists v.s. solemn canons.

 

[Brakelite]

That is an opinion contradicted by the facts of history. Pitting Scripture against true tradition is a man made Protestant tradition. I challenge you to name these errors and quote the so called errors of the ECF. This forces you to scrape the bottom of the barrel searching for quotes that went against the general consensus, and ignore everything else from the same CF.

Scripture alone was used by every heretic in the patristic period to assert their false doctrines, and the deciding factor in serious controversies such as the Arian and Nestorian controversies was the appeal to what had always been believed (tradition). You have no clue as to what true tradition means, so you are forced to make it up to fit your man made system, and the Protestant tradition of a non-infallible church.
True tradition includes the Authority of Scripture, they are inseparable like 2 wings of a bird.
True tradition also includes the authentic beliefs and practices found in the ante-Nicene historic church, and because not all of it was recorded in Scripture does not mean it is inferior. That's your man made tradition.

Without the tradition of the episcopate, there would be no Bible, (which took 3+ centuries to blossom) so your statement is contradictory, self defeating and ridiculous.

I will offer you one tradition that is not even close to the bottom of any barrel. In fact it is at the very forefront of Catholic tradition and it completely contradicts all scripture from Genesis to Revelation. This false tradition is as Enoch said, an early heresy that was incorporated into the writings of the ECF and a quite quickly made it into Catholic law. It is a tradition that had absolutely no foundation in scripture whatsoever, is an active working principle that denies the authority of God, and sets aside one of the Ten Commandments. Those who down through history choose to obey the Commandment rather than the heresy/tradition of the church, were persecuted, relentlessly hunted down and murdered by the agents of the church pretending to uphold sound doctrine.
If you don't know what tradition I am referring to, you are asleep.

 

[Philip James]

So once again, Scripture is the final arbiter of what is a true tradition.

Hello Enoch,
And yet scripture itself, identifies the Church as the arbiter of disputes..


"If your brother 1sins (against you), go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have won over your brother.

If he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, so that 'every fact may be established on the testimony of two or three witnesses.'


If he refuses to listen to them, tell the church. If he refuses to listen even to the church, then treat him as you would a Gentile or a tax collector.

Amen, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.


Peace be with you!

 

[Brakelite]

And yet scripture itself, identifies the Church as the arbiter of disputes..

That church loses its authority the moment she plays the harlot. God then raises up others to carry the mantle. Such has been the case all the way down through history.
All the while the scriptures remain constant and are the final authority regardless of the ecclesiastical pedigree of those claiming to be above scripture.

 

[Illuminator]

I will offer you one tradition that is not even close to the bottom of any barrel. In fact it is at the very forefront of Catholic tradition and it completely contradicts all scripture from Genesis to Revelation. This false tradition is as Enoch said, an early heresy that was incorporated into the writings of the ECF and a quite quickly made it into Catholic law. It is a tradition that had absolutely no foundation in scripture whatsoever, is an active working principle that denies the authority of God, and sets aside one of the Ten Commandments. Those who down through history choose to obey the Commandment rather than the heresy/tradition of the church, were persecuted, relentlessly hunted down and murdered by the agents of the church pretending to uphold sound doctrine.
If you don't know what tradition I am referring to, you are asleep.

You don't name any tradition, and you don't name any alleged "agents of the church". No documentation, no ECF quotes, just anti-Catholic hate speech. Bad behavior, for which all sides were to blame, has nothing to do with Sacred Tradition. The tradition of the episcopate comes straight from Jesus and the Apostles, without which there would be no Bible. Deal with it.

 

[Illuminator]

That church loses its authority the moment she plays the harlot. God then raises up others to carry the mantle. Such has been the case all the way down through history.
All the while the scriptures remain constant and are the final authority regardless of the ecclesiastical pedigree of those claiming to be above scripture.

"Harlot" is asserted but never proven, and you can't name anyone who claimed to be above scripture. It's a stupid canard.

The one true Church is and always will be in harmony with God’s inspired revelation, the Bible. Thus, we reject any form of Protestantism, because they fail this test. It’s not a matter of one thing being “under” the other. All of that is the invention of the 16th century and the biblically bankrupt and meaningless notion of sola Scriptura. The Bible presents Scripture-Tradition-Church as a “three-legged stool”: the rule of faith. All are in harmony; all work together.

You’re trying to set the Bible against the Church, which is typical Protestant methodology, and ultra-unbiblical. The Bible never does that. I’ve already given the example of the Jerusalem Council, which plainly shows the infallibility of the Church.

The Bible repeatedly teaches that the Church is indefectible; therefore, the hypothetical of rejecting the (one true, historic) Church, as supposedly going against the Bible, is impossible according to the Bible. It is not a situation that would ever come up, because of God’s promised protection.

What the Bible says is to reject those who cause divisions, which is the very essence of the onset of Protestantism: schism, sectarianism, and division. It is Protestantism that departed from the historic Church, which is indefectible and infallible (see also 1 Tim 3:15). What the Bible says is to reject those who cause divisions, that is Paul's test that Protestantism FAILS.

Schism, sectarianism, division, plundering church property, systematic persecution of anyone who disagreed with the so called reformers, theological chaos and censorship was the immediate rotten fruits of the Protestant Revolt, and you come along with a ridiculous "tradition" of your own making.
"scriptures remain constant and are the final authority" is not found anywhere in the Bible, that's your man made tradition, and you guys haven't been able to defend sola scriptura for 500 years, with 40,000 "final authorities". You can't even agree whether or not baptism is an essential doctrine, a fine example of your "final authority".

 

[Philip James]

That church loses its authority the moment she plays the harlot. God then raises up others to carry the mantle.

Really? Where did you receive the tradition that the Church fails, is replanted, fails, is replanted, fails...etc frrom?

Who could follow such a weak God.

My God promised that He Himself would build His Church, that the gates of hell would not prevail against it, that it would grow to a great mountain filling the whole Earth....

They went out from us, but they were not really of our number; if they had been, they would have remained with us. Their desertion shows that none of them was of our number.

Peace be with you!

 

[Brakelite]

Pitting Scripture against true tradition is a man made Protestant tradition.

Jesus said any man made doctrine/tradition that contradicts God's commandments was to worship on vain. This is not a Protestant tradition... It's a direct quote from Jesus Christ.

I then informed you that there was a particular tradition that fulfilled that specific criteria that Jesus referred to above, and that those who kept the commandment rather than submit to the tradition were persecuted, hunted, and murdered by the church.
Without even bothering to inquire as to what I could be referring to, the following tirade, accusing me of anti Catholic hate speech??? Lol and claims that the church could never do wrong or teach error is just a tad over the top don't you think? A little bit of an overreaction?

"Harlot" is asserted but never proven, and you can't name anyone who claimed to be above scripture. It's a stupid canard.

The one true Church is and always will be in harmony with God’s inspired revelation, the Bible. Thus, we reject any form of Protestantism, because they fail this test. It’s not a matter of one thing being “under” the other. All of that is the invention of the 16th century and the biblically bankrupt and meaningless notion of sola Scriptura. The Bible presents Scripture-Tradition-Church as a “three-legged stool”: the rule of faith. All are in harmony; all work together.

You’re trying to set the Bible against the Church, which is typical Protestant methodology, and ultra-unbiblical. The Bible never does that. I’ve already given the example of the Jerusalem Council, which plainly shows the infallibility of the Church.

The Bible repeatedly teaches that the Church is indefectible; therefore, the hypothetical of rejecting the (one true, historic) Church, as supposedly going against the Bible, is impossible according to the Bible. It is not a situation that would ever come up, because of God’s promised protection.

What the Bible says is to reject those who cause divisions, which is the very essence of the onset of Protestantism: schism, sectarianism, and division. It is Protestantism that departed from the historic Church, which is indefectible and infallible (see also 1 Tim 3:15). What the Bible says is to reject those who cause divisions, that is Paul's test that Protestantism FAILS.

Schism, sectarianism, division, plundering church property, systematic persecution of anyone who disagreed with the so called reformers, theological chaos and censorship was the immediate rotten fruits of the Protestant Revolt, and you come along with a ridiculous "tradition" of your own making.
"scriptures remain constant and are the final authority" is not found anywhere in the Bible, that's your man made tradition, and you guys haven't been able to defend sola scriptura for 500 years, with 40,000 "final authorities". You can't even agree whether or not baptism is an essential doctrine, a fine example of your "final authority".

Harlot is a descriptive given to an apartment church for one reason... Taking up a relationship with rulers of this world and using them as agents for the church in doing God's work... That is sorting out heretics. Using them to support the church materially. Using them to sustain church activity. That my friend is prostitution.
KJV Revelation 17
Babylon the Great
1 And there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials, and talked with me, saying unto me, Come hither; I will shew unto thee the judgment of the great whore that sitteth upon many waters:
2 With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication.

Did not the church use the state to carry out it's persecutions against heresy? Did not the church become rich through it's relationship with the state? Is that not part and parcel of the whole Catholic concept of the two swords?

 

[historyb]

I will offer you one tradition that is not even close to the bottom of any barrel. In fact it is at the very forefront of Catholic tradition and it completely contradicts all scripture from Genesis to Revelation. This false tradition is as Enoch said, an early heresy that was incorporated into the writings of the ECF and a quite quickly made it into Catholic law. It is a tradition that had absolutely no foundation in scripture whatsoever, is an active working principle that denies the authority of God, and sets aside one of the Ten Commandments. Those who down through history choose to obey the Commandment rather than the heresy/tradition of the church, were persecuted, relentlessly hunted down and murdered by the agents of the church pretending to uphold sound doctrine.
If you don't know what tradition I am referring to, you are asleep.

I don't know this absolute fantasy you created, What color is the sky in your world?

 

[Brakelite]

I don't know this absolute fantasy you created, What color is the sky in your world?

How do you know it's fantasy...I haven't told you what tradition it is yet.

 

[Marymog]

True. But the traditions of the apostles (what was handed down by them, since that is the meaning of the word) were not the same as those of the teachings of others who followed them. Errors crept into the churches very early and were incorporated in the writings of the ECF. So once again, Scripture is the final arbiter of what is a true tradition.

Thank you Enoch.

Where is your evidence that errors were incorporated in the writings of the ECF’s? Who decides what an “error” is? Where does Scripture say that “Scripture is the final arbiter of what is a true tradition? I can’t find that in Scripture.

Curious Mary

 

[Illuminator]

Jesus said any man made doctrine/tradition that contradicts God's commandments was to worship on vain. This is not a Protestant tradition... It's a direct quote from Jesus Christ.

Jesus did not condemn all tradition. Just the man made ones. Sola scriptura and sola fide are man made traditions, not found in the Bible or taught anywhere for 16 centuries. "Tradition" Isn't a Dirty Word

I then informed you that there was a particular tradition that fulfilled that specific criteria that Jesus referred to above, and that those who kept the commandment rather than submit to the tradition were persecuted, hunted, and murdered by the church.

You haven't informed me of anything, just a stupid blind assertion. And you have no names of those "hunted by the church". Until you come up with ONE name, you are just blowing forum flatulence.

Without even bothering to inquire as to what I could be referring to, the following tirade, accusing me of anti Catholic hate speech??? Lol and claims that the church could never do wrong or teach error is just a tad over the top don't you think? A little bit of an overreaction?

The Bible repeatedly teaches the Church is infallible in doctrine, not behavior. You are incapable of making the distinction.

Harlot is a descriptive given to an apartment church for one reason... Taking up a relationship with rulers of this world and using them as agents for the church in doing God's work... That is sorting out heretics. Using them to support the church materially. Using them to sustain church activity. That my friend is prostitution.

More unproven assertions. More failure to identify what heresies the church opposed. The Church shifted from being persecuted to being protected. The facts of history is your enemy.

KJV Revelation 17
Babylon the Great
1 And there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials, and talked with me, saying unto me, Come hither; I will shew unto thee the judgment of the great whore that sitteth upon many waters:
2 With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication.

The first 40 popes were killed by pagan Romans. None of your "Bible Christian" sites or media of any kind ever mention this. It's Protestant censorship.

Did not the church use the state to carry out it's persecutions against heresy?

No. The state appealed to the Church to resolve the Arian crisis because it was tearing apart the social order, and again, you fail to name ONE Arian or Nestorian who was persecuted. Excommunication is NOT persecution.

Did not the church become rich through it's relationship with the state?

No, that is Baptist mythology. You have no reliable historical evidence to support this myth. The Church and the State being one and the same is anti-Catholic hate propaganda with no evidence.

Is that not part and parcel of the whole Catholic concept of the two swords?

Another falsehood you can't prove. All "Catholic concepts" are available free on line. What is the Catholic concept of the two swords? If you are referring the Just War Doctrine, which you know nothing about, do your homework before making so many ridiculous blind assertions.

The LIES of Dave Hunt Exposed

ANTI-CATHOLIC MYTHS AND LIES: #1 EMPEROR CONSTANTINE FOUNDED THE CATHOLIC CHURCH