If you found you were in the wrong faith, would you change?

[Bob Carabbio]

The Bible teaches there is one faith at Eph 4:5 That is referring to one denomination that belongs to God.

ABSOLUTELY NOT!!! since there is NO VISIBLE DENOMINATION ON EARTH that has ever been the perfect embodiment of the entire truth of God.

The ONE TRUE CHURCH is that ONE spiritual body comprised of BORN AGAIN Christians through the ages, physically alive, and physically dead, who have been made PERFECT by FAITH in the SIN OFFERING of Jesus on the Cross. No existing visible relgio/political "Church" system has ever come close.

Personally I'm a member in good standing of the Assemblies of God denominatioal system, which ain't even close to "perfect" but is pretty good enough for me.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Ronald,

There is more here than meets the eye. Jesus did indeed rise from the dead after three days, but just as He said...it was a sign.

That sign was a foreshadowing of His ascension, which was Him going to the Father whom is Spirit--it was a spiritual event. But His resurrection from the dead was a mere demonstration of His having conquered death, that those who die in the flesh are not lost to the dust, but are raised up the last day. But again, that is not to say that they ascend to the Father or inherit the kingdom of God as flesh and blood, but rather that by the power of God in Christ they are raised and in that moment "changed"...which is to say, changed into the perfection and the glory of the Spirit, meaning God.

It was also a sign of the remaining 3.5 days, the end of the daily sacrifice: "Behold I cast out demons and perform cures today and tomorrow, and the third day I shall be perfected." Luke 13:32

And as Paul said our mortal is clothed with immortality and this corruptible puts on incorruption. How these transformatio0ns take place- Teh bible is silent so we should be.

God created Adam and Eve to be immortal as humans. Jesus resotored that for us.

 

[ScottA]

And as Paul said our mortal is clothed with immortality and this corruptible puts on incorruption. How these transformatio0ns take place- Teh bible is silent so we should be.

God created Adam and Eve to be immortal as humans. Jesus resotored that for us.

I refer you to: God "CREATED" -- What it actually means.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

I have presented Scriptural evidence as to why I believe Jesus was resurrected as a spirit being. We have concluded this topic, one of us is in error Ron. But it is not a critical topic as we both believe Jesus was resurrected which is an essential doctrine of the Christian faith.

I am sorry Bob, but you do not believe jesus was stood up again or resurrected. I cannot in conscience before God allow you to think the Watchtower doctrine you hold is the correct belief for what resurrection is.

1 Corinthians 15
King James Version

15 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;

2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.

3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;

4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

5 And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve:

6 After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep.

7 After that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles.

8 And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time.

9 For I am the least of the apostles, that am not meet to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God.

10 But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace which was bestowed upon me was not in vain; but I laboured more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me.

11 Therefore whether it were I or they, so we preach, and so ye believed.

12 Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?

13 But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen:

14 And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.

15 Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not.

16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:

17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.

18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.

19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.

20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.

21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.

22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

egeirō ἀγορά (G58) (through the idea of collecting one's faculties)

Dictionary Aids
Vine's Expository Dictionary: rise (36x), raise (28x), arise (27x), raise up (23x), rise up (8x), rise again (5x), raise again (4x), miscellaneous (10x).

If Jesus laid down as an invisible spirit creature- then He would have risen AGAIN as one. But what did lie down in Jesus' tomb?

Lexicon :: Strong's G386 - anastasis

ἀνάστασις
Transliteration
anastasis ἀνίστημι (G450)
Greek Inflections of ἀνάστασις ἀναστάσει — 7x

Dictionary Aids
Vine's Expository Dictionary: resurrection (39x), rising again (1x), that should rise (1x), raised to life again (with G1537) (1x).
Outline of Biblical Usage [?]

1. a raising up, rising (e.g. from a seat)
   
   
2. a rising from the dead
   
   
   1. that of Christ
      
      
   2. that of all men at the end of this present age
      
3. If you deny the physical resurrection, especially after Gods word is so clear:

As Paul said you rfaith is in vain and you are yet in yor sins. I do not wish this for you.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

You are correct, Jesus did not place that number, Jehovah did through the disciple John. Jesus called them a little flock (Luke 12:32) . . .“Have no fear, little flock, for your Father has approved of giving you the Kingdom. He said that he had sheep which was not of their fold: (John 10:16) . . .I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; those too I must bring in, and they will listen to my voice, and they will become one flock, one shepherd.

No Jesus did not call the 144,000 a little flock in Luke- that is the Watchtower ( and many other cults) who placed that number on what jesus said.

Jesus was addressing those that were there.

and the two folds are Jews and Gentiles! This also is an insidious lie of the Watchtower. Paul made it very clear that is what was meant. this was a mystery in the OT and revealed in the new!

11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;

12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;

15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:

Why should one seek to find non biblical answers when teh Bible clearly explains these things????

 

[Ronald Nolette]

The Bible has to be taken as a whole Ron, evidences of who they are are gradually revealed, but we can even see that in Jesus day they could be distinguished from the other sheep. Out of all of God's people in Jerusalem that night Jesus only made the covenant with his faithful 11: (Luke 22:28-30) . . .you are the ones who have stuck with me in my trials; 29 and I make a covenant with you, just as my Father has made a covenant with me, for a kingdom, 30 so that you may eat and drink at my table in my Kingdom, and sit on thrones to judge the 12 tribes of Israel.

The Bible went on to reveal these anointed ones of the covenant as called to be holy ones:
(1 Corinthians 1:2) . . .you who have been sanctified in union with Christ Jesus, called to be holy ones, together with all those everywhere who are calling on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, their Lord and ours. . . a letter from Paul written primarily to them but also to those of the other sheep as well, both flocks mentioned here.

They were called to be a holy nation: (1 Peter 2:9, 10) . . .But you are “a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for special possession, that you should declare abroad the excellencies” of the One who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light. 10 For you were once not a people, but now you are God’s people; once you had not been shown mercy, but now you have received mercy. Referred to as the Israel of God: (Galatians 6:16) . . .for all those who walk orderly by this rule of conduct, peace and mercy be upon them, yes, upon the Israel of God. . .

John revealed the number of them and itemized them as tribes in Rev 7, and in chapter 5 gave the reason for their calling: (Revelation 5:9, 10) . . .And they sing a new song, saying: “You are worthy to take the scroll and open its seals, for you were slaughtered and with your blood you bought people for God out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation, 10 and you made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God, and they are to rule as kings over the earth.”
Those singing that new song number 144k and are purchased from the earth to reside in heaven with Jesus: (Revelation 14:1-3) . . .I saw, and look! the Lamb standing on Mount Zion, and with him 144,000 who have his name and the name of his Father written on their foreheads. 2 I heard a sound coming out of heaven like the sound of many waters and like the sound of loud thunder; and the sound that I heard was like singers who accompany themselves by playing on their harps. 3 And they are singing what seems to be a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders, and no one was able to master that song except the 144,000, who have been bought from the earth.

No doubt this is foreign to you Ron, pray for understanding, everything necessary to show who they are and why is in these verses. Will take some thinking on it as I know you haven't been taught this way.

Yes teh bible has to be taken as a whole. but we must rightly divide it, the Watchtower doesn't.

Revelation clearly identifies the 144,000 as twelve thousand Jews from 12 tribes of Israel. Why do you not take this part of the bible? You seem so willing to swallow the convoluted twisted and meandering explanations of the watchtower as to teh identity of these but yet reject the simple biblical identity.

And to trust a man made organization to give me the secret meanings of these , no thanks. I di dthat once with the one true churc (as they call themselves) in Romanism. I do not need another one true church (as the Watchtower claims for itself) to reinterpret Scripture.

Bob all they do is this simple thing. Teh bible says one thing clearly, simply and unambiguously, and then to control the masses, they claim they have the revelation of what it means.

So bob you are not accepting the bible as God inspired it, but as teh Watchtower has reinterpreted it.

 

[Jane_Doe22]

Perhaps Bob, but most understand that their denomination is their faith, and many refer to in that way. The Bible teaches there is one faith at Eph 4:5 That is referring to one denomination that belongs to God. So yes faith is referring to a religious group, and is called many other things as well. Perhaps you have heard of the way Acts 9:2 or Christians Acts 11:26. So most of the time when I use the term faith I will be speaking about your denomination or your beliefs.

I appreciate your including especially Heb 11:1 where it is actually defined in it's primary meaning.

Having studied in many different churches, I strongly disagree with you here.

A person's faith is that relationship they have with God: that person + God.

The denomination is the label on the set of pews they set on. That label neither saves nor damns you. And two people literally sitting next to each other can have different beliefs -- different understandings of God. This doesn't have to be contradictory or bad, it's just different. That also doesn't mean one is saved and one is damned-- because we aren't saved by our ability to pass a theology test.

To very very direct: I find the WatchTower denomination to be a twisted & false teacher. However, I still can see & admire Robert's faith -- his devotion, honesty, and love of God.

 

[Robert Gwin]

You are welcome and yes, I am quite aware that Satan is the god of this world right now, but one day, Jesus will rip those keys from him and he will be tossed, for good this time, into the lake of fire prepared for him and his angels. All things will be taken care of, politics be damned far as I am concerned, they are puppets of Satan.
Satan was in the church at it's inception, he is there now and sometimes right up there on the pulpit. I am not ignorant of these things Robert but, thanks for the share. The black horse is a riding and a snorting and a whinnying away right now, IMHO!

Yes maam, all four horses are on the move, we are very close to our deliverance.

 

[Robert Gwin]

I hear you say that.
And I’ve also heard you say death threats multiple times this thread alone.

Going back to the title question of this thread: if you found JW was the wrong faith, that the Watchtower twisted the Bible, would you be afraid?

(Non-hypothetical) Are you willing to see the love non-JW folks have for God?

Since what I have posted is in writing maam, it is easy enough to show.

If I found JW's were not the one faith of God I would exit fast. I have invited others many times to scripturally identify the faith, but to date no one has. The Bible identifies God's people beyond any doubt, if it doesn't then God has no right whatsoever to remove wicked, as He has not given the requirements to be righteous, does this make any sense Jane.

I certainly do not give death threats maam, but God promises what He recorded for us at 2 Thes 1:6-9 His words not mine. I think that may be what you refer to. I guarantee God is not a liar, and what He foretells will come to be, so if you want to consider the broad road to destruction a death threat, fine, I consider it a future fact.

I believe there are many loving people in the world, and sometimes I question the lack of love among us Jehovah's witnesses. The truth is however, not all who claim to be Jehovah's witnesses are, and that has always been the case. A true witness of Jehovah will in fact be a very loving person. I try not to concentrate on it, as we are imperfect humans, but if we are lacking love, we should really take action to correct it before Jehovah does.

 

[Robert Gwin]

That is close...except for it already happening, for it has yet to happen with those who's order is yet to come. This order continues as it has since Pentecost until the times of the gentiles are fulfilled--which continues until the very last "one"..."each one in his own order."

We agree that it is ongoing, however we certainly do not agree on the time it started, we believe the first resurrection occurred after the end of the times of the gentiles.

Perhaps we need to clarify what that term means. It is a time period where Jehovah had no King to sit on His throne. It started when the last King (Zedekiah) was removed from the throne, and ended when Jesus received the crown. The prophecy in Daniel reveals this time period to be a period of 2520 yrs. We believe that Zedekiah was removed in 607 BCE and Jesus was enthroned in 1914 CE, and the signs Jesus gave his followers appear to bear out the accuracy of that understanding. We entered into the last day stretch of this world in 1914.

 

[Airaux]

Yes - the Truth is far too important to be "lessened" by other issues.

 

[Airaux]

We agree that it is ongoing, however we certainly do not agree on the time it started, we believe the first resurrection occurred after the end of the times of the gentiles.

Perhaps we need to clarify what that term means. It is a time period where Jehovah had no King to sit on His throne. It started when the last King (Zedekiah) was removed from the throne, and ended when Jesus received the crown. The prophecy in Daniel reveals this time period to be a period of 2520 yrs. We believe that Zedekiah was removed in 607 BCE and Jesus was enthroned in 1914 CE, and the signs Jesus gave his followers appear to bear out the accuracy of that understanding. We entered into the last day stretch of this world in 1914.

Are you a JW? This reasoning has been used for establishing 1914 as the beginning of Christ's invisible reign.

 

[Robert Gwin]

ABSOLUTELY NOT!!! since there is NO VISIBLE DENOMINATION ON EARTH that has ever been the perfect embodiment of the entire truth of God.

The ONE TRUE CHURCH is that ONE spiritual body comprised of BORN AGAIN Christians through the ages, physically alive, and physically dead, who have been made PERFECT by FAITH in the SIN OFFERING of Jesus on the Cross. No existing visible relgio/political "Church" system has ever come close.

Personally I'm a member in good standing of the Assemblies of God denominatioal system, which ain't even close to "perfect" but is pretty good enough for me.

God's people have never been perfect Bob, but yes from the first Covenant given through Moses, He had a visible Denomination on earth. His people underwent a covenant change and you are absolutely correct that covenant is with the born again Christians only. They as well are not perfect, and still sin like the other sheep do, but they are God's visible representatives here on earth.

Since Jesus' disciples have been making disciples since the first century, and we have entered into the last days after the apostasy ended His people have been gathered to His figurative Holy mountain Isa 2:2-4 and are very visible and identifiable, in fact there are at least four identifications I see in those three verses alone. Can you see any of those identifying facts Bob? It can be fun to break down those verses to see the meaning.

Are you able to post more identifying passages that narrow it down further?

 

[Jane_Doe22]

Are you a JW? This reasoning has been used for establishing 1914 as the beginning of Christ's invisible reign.

@Robert Gwin is a JW

 

[Robert Gwin]

I am sorry Bob, but you do not believe jesus was stood up again or resurrected. I cannot in conscience before God allow you to think the Watchtower doctrine you hold is the correct belief for what resurrection is.

1 Corinthians 15
King James Version

15 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;

2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.

3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;

4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

5 And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve:

6 After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep.

7 After that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles.

8 And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time.

9 For I am the least of the apostles, that am not meet to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God.

10 But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace which was bestowed upon me was not in vain; but I laboured more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me.

11 Therefore whether it were I or they, so we preach, and so ye believed.

12 Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?

13 But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen:

14 And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.

15 Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not.

16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:

17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.

18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.

19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.

20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.

21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.

22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

egeirō ἀγορά (G58) (through the idea of collecting one's faculties)

Dictionary Aids
Vine's Expository Dictionary: rise (36x), raise (28x), arise (27x), raise up (23x), rise up (8x), rise again (5x), raise again (4x), miscellaneous (10x).

If Jesus laid down as an invisible spirit creature- then He would have risen AGAIN as one. But what did lie down in Jesus' tomb?


Lexicon :: Strong's G386 - anastasis

ἀνάστασις
Transliteration
anastasis ἀνίστημι (G450)
Greek Inflections of ἀνάστασις ἀναστάσει — 7x

Dictionary Aids
Vine's Expository Dictionary: resurrection (39x), rising again (1x), that should rise (1x), raised to life again (with G1537) (1x).
Outline of Biblical Usage [?]

1. a raising up, rising (e.g. from a seat)
   
   
2. a rising from the dead
   
   1. that of Christ
      
      
   2. that of all men at the end of this present age
3. If you deny the physical resurrection, especially after Gods word is so clear:

As Paul said you rfaith is in vain and you are yet in yor sins. I do not wish this for you.

Get serious Ron, if Jesus was not raised what hope do we have sir? Of course we believe he was resurrected and our written conversations have shown that I believe such, why do you make false accusations sir?
(1 Corinthians 15:20-32) . . .Christ has been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep in death. 21 For since death came through a man, resurrection of the dead also comes through a man. 22 For just as in Adam all are dying, so also in the Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each one in his own proper order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who belong to the Christ during his presence. 24 Next, the end, when he hands over the Kingdom to his God and Father, when he has brought to nothing all government and all authority and power. 25 For he must rule as king until God has put all enemies under his feet. 26 And the last enemy, death, is to be brought to nothing. 27 For God “subjected all things under his feet.” But when he says that ‘all things have been subjected,’ it is evident that this does not include the One who subjected all things to him. 28 But when all things will have been subjected to him, then the Son himself will also subject himself to the One who subjected all things to him, that God may be all things to everyone. 29 Otherwise, what will they do who are being baptized for the purpose of being dead ones? If the dead are not to be raised up at all, why are they also being baptized for the purpose of being such? 30 Why are we also in danger every hour? 31 Daily I face death. This is as sure as my exultation over you, brothers, which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord. 32 If like other men, I have fought with wild beasts at Ephʹe·sus, of what good is it to me? If the dead are not to be raised up, “let us eat and drink, for tomorrow we are to die.. . .

Let's try to learn from the exchanges, do you think that is possible Ron?

 

[Robert Gwin]

No Jesus did not call the 144,000 a little flock in Luke- that is the Watchtower ( and many other cults) who placed that number on what jesus said.

Jesus was addressing those that were there.

and the two folds are Jews and Gentiles! This also is an insidious lie of the Watchtower. Paul made it very clear that is what was meant. this was a mystery in the OT and revealed in the new!

11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;

12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;

15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:

Why should one seek to find non biblical answers when teh Bible clearly explains these things????

No matter what you call them sir, there are in fact two groups of sheep.

 

[Robert Gwin]

Yes teh bible has to be taken as a whole. but we must rightly divide it, the Watchtower doesn't.

Revelation clearly identifies the 144,000 as twelve thousand Jews from 12 tribes of Israel. Why do you not take this part of the bible? You seem so willing to swallow the convoluted twisted and meandering explanations of the watchtower as to teh identity of these but yet reject the simple biblical identity.

And to trust a man made organization to give me the secret meanings of these , no thanks. I di dthat once with the one true churc (as they call themselves) in Romanism. I do not need another one true church (as the Watchtower claims for itself) to reinterpret Scripture.

Bob all they do is this simple thing. Teh bible says one thing clearly, simply and unambiguously, and then to control the masses, they claim they have the revelation of what it means.

So bob you are not accepting the bible as God inspired it, but as teh Watchtower has reinterpreted it.

As the passages I posted showed, they are from all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues sir.

 

[Robert Gwin]

Having studied in many different churches, I strongly disagree with you here.

A person's faith is that relationship they have with God: that person + God.

The denomination is the label on the set of pews they set on. That label neither saves nor damns you. And two people literally sitting next to each other can have different beliefs -- different understandings of God. This doesn't have to be contradictory or bad, it's just different. That also doesn't mean one is saved and one is damned-- because we aren't saved by our ability to pass a theology test.

To very very direct: I find the WatchTower denomination to be a twisted & false teacher. However, I still can see & admire Robert's faith -- his devotion, honesty, and love of God.

I am very appreciative of your honesty maam, so lets get down to business. Pick one false teaching you think we twist, and I will be glad to show you why it is Scriptural, put me to the test, as I fully intend to live up to 2 Tim 4:5

 

[Nancy]

Having studied in many different churches, I strongly disagree with you here.

A person's faith is that relationship they have with God: that person + God.

The denomination is the label on the set of pews they set on. That label neither saves nor damns you. And two people literally sitting next to each other can have different beliefs -- different understandings of God. This doesn't have to be contradictory or bad, it's just different. That also doesn't mean one is saved and one is damned-- because we aren't saved by our ability to pass a theology test.

To very very direct: I find the WatchTower denomination to be a twisted & false teacher. However, I still can see & admire Robert's faith -- his devotion, honesty, and love of God.

I agree Jane,
I wonder what @Robert Gwin would answer to: " Isaiah 9:6 we read: “For there has been a child born to us, there has been a son given to us; and the princely rule will come to be upon his shoulder. And his name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace.” NWT

So, is Jehovah equal to The Father God?

 

[farouk]

I agree Jane,
I wonder what @Robert Gwin would answer to: " Isaiah 9:6 we read: “For there has been a child born to us, there has been a son given to us; and the princely rule will come to be upon his shoulder. And his name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace.” NWT

So, is Jehovah equal to The Father God?

@Nancy Indeed, in Philippians 2, Christ Jesus 'thought it not robbery to be equal with God'.