ewq1938
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If you have read the book of Revelation, and not understood something, you have read wisely (thoughts?)
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Dear ewq1938,
The gospel which says that Christ is going to be a failure to save all of mankind but will instead, torment in literal fire most of mankind for all eternity, without a loving or righteous purpose, is the real FALSE GOSPEL.
This verse below is the true Good News which should be proclaim to the world:
1Tim 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior; 4 who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 6 who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.
Why won't you believe it? Where is your faith?
Joe
ewq1938
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That doesn't say what you claim it says. Universalism is a false gospel.
Matthew 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
Matthew 7:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
The way to destruction is wide and the majority will be destroyed. Only a minority will find the way to life.
David in NJ
Well-Known Member
Revelation can only be understood thru the Holy Spirit and Genesis forward on thru to Revelation.
The Whole Picture of Scripture begins with Genesis.
David in NJ
Well-Known Member
Where is your faith?
Are you greater then the LORD?
Matthew 25:31-46
When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the [c]holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. 32All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. 33And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. 34Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: 35for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in; 36I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.’
37“Then the righteous will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You drink? 38When did we see You a stranger and take You in, or naked and clothe You? 39Or when did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?’ 40And the King will answer and say to them, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.’
41“Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:
42for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink; 43I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.’
44“Then they also will answer [d]Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?’ 45Then He will answer them, saying, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’
46And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
Dear ewq1938,
Don't you know that all mankind must be destroyed spiritually to be converted. All the death and destruction which comes from the judgment of Christ is necessary for mankind's conversion and salvation.
Look at this verse:
Isa 66:16 For by fire (Judgment) and by his sword (God's Word) will the LORD plead with all flesh: and the slain of the LORD shall be many.
This verse is a teaching on conversion. When Christ judges a person, He slays them with His sword.
This verse likewise teaches on conversion:
Mat 26:52 Then said Jesus unto him, put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword.
If a person takes what Christ said literally, then what He said can easily be proven to be false. But Christ teaches in His spiritual language which uses symbols and types. To understand what Christ is saying, a person must understand the spiritual language of Christ.
Here is what this verse is actually teaching:
Christ is teaching that all (those who have received the earnest of the Spirit and are “called out”) who take up the Sword (God's Word, Christ), must perish (death of the carnal nature) by the Sword. This death is a necessary part of the conversion process which happens when the Word of God (Christ, the Sword) comes to a person and gives them the Baptism of the Holy Spirit and the Baptism of Fire (judgment of the carnal nature):
Mat 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Spirit, and with Fire.
This conversion event is what the Apostles experienced on the Day of Pentecost:
Acts 2:1 And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place. 2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting. 3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of FIRE, and it sat upon each of them. 4 And they were all filled with the HOLY SPIRIT, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
In the spiritual language of Christ, the Apostles took up the Sword and then they died by the SWORD.
Now let's take a closer at what 1Tim 2:3-6 is saying:
1Tim 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior; 4 who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 6 who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.
Some scholars believe this verse should be translated as "desires to have all men be saved”, but that translation makes no sense. The verse needs to say "will have" to support the event that will later be "testified" to have happened.
The word "desires" does not require anything to be accomplished. It is an emotion. And if Christ only desires to save us, why would it need to be proven to be true at some future date? An emotion can be proven in the present. The translation of "desires" (or any other word) in verse 4 makes no sense in light of the phrase "to be testified in due time". The only reasonable conclusion is that the verse should be translated as “who will have all men to be saved”. Only when that day arrives, will Christ's words be testified to be true.
Also, even if a person translates the Greek word "thelo" as "desires", it doesn't change the meaning of the verse since God ALWAYS gets His desires. Since God desires to save all mankind, it will happen.
Job 23:13 But he is in one mind, and who can turn him? And what his soul desireth, that will he do.
Isa 55:11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.
If a person thinks that mankind's "will" is too strong for God to overcome, then they are wrong:
Dan 4:35 And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing; and he doeth according to his will in the army of the heavens, and among the inhabitants of the earth; and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?
God's work of saving mankind is now “spiritual" work under the New Covenant. Spiritual work is done "within" mankind. In this world, Christ accomplishes His "will" by changing man's heart to agree with His "will".
Prov 16:1 The preparations of the heart in man, and the answer of the tongue, is from the LORD.
Jer 10:23 I know, Jehovah, that the way of man is not his own; it is not in a man that walketh to direct his steps.
A person's salvation ONLY happens in response to the work Christ does within us beforehand. And since Christ has sworn by the prophets that He will do His work within us all, how can anyone remain lost?
Consider this verse:
Acts 3:20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: 21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of the RESTITUTION OF ALL THINGS, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.
Here is a verse from one of the prophets:
Isa 45:22 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else. 23 I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, that unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.
Paul restated this verse below:
Phi 2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee shall bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; 11 and that every tongue shall confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
If Christ fails to save even one person, He will have failed to accomplish the mission the Father gave Him to do.
1John 4:14 And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Savior of the world.
If Christ fails to save the world, then God’s words will have come back to Him void and Christ will have “missed the mark” which would be a sin. However, God is not like mankind who fails. He always accomplishes the things He says He will do.
Finally, consider this scripture:
1 Cor 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the first-fruits of them that slept. 21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the first-fruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming (His church). 24 Then cometh the consummation (the rest of mankind), when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. 27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. 28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
Does this scripture sound like Christ is going to fail mankind? Most certainly not.
This scripture describes the event that 1Tim 2:4-6 proclaims will be “testified in due time”. It leaves no room for doubt about the saving work of Christ being accomplished in all mankind.
Consider the phrasing of verse 22: All who died “in Adam” is the same all who will be made alive “in Christ”. Who could that possibly leave out?
In the end, Christ will have accomplished the mission His Father gave Him. He will defeat the last enemy of death. Then Christ’s reign over mankind will come to an end because there is no more work for Him to perform. Christ’s last act will be to deliver up the Kingdom of Heaven (now completely full) to His Father so that God will be “all in all” (no one left out).
What I have presented above is the true Good News (Gospel) of Christ and is what should be proclaimed to the world.
The Gospel of Christ which Orthodox Christianity proclaims to the world makes Christ out to be a failure. And when coupled with their teaching of the Doctrine of Hell, Christ is made out to be far worse than the worst of mankind. At least mankind's evil ends when a person physically dies. But the evil the church teaches about Christ, they say it never ends.
Orthodox Christianity has turned the Good News of Christ into a nightmare for mankind.
Which Gospel do you believe?
Joe
Dear David in NJ,
Please consider my response to ewq1938 (which I just posted) as my response to you.
I do want to add one more item to that response because you do not understand the purpose of Christ's judgment.
Consider these verses:
Isa 26:9 With my soul have I desired thee in the night; yea, with my spirit within me will I seek thee early: for when thy judgments are in the (New) Earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness.
Isa 1:27 Zion shall be redeemed with judgment, and her converts with righteousness.
Psa 9:8 And he shall judge the world in righteousness, he shall minister judgment to the people in uprightness.
Psa 33:5 He loveth righteousness and judgment: the earth is full of the goodness of the LORD.
Isa 2:4 And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.
Isa 4:4 When the Lord shall have washed away the filth of the daughters of Zion, and shall have purged the blood of Jerusalem from the midst thereof by the spirit of judgment, and by the spirit of burning (fire).
Christ's judgment is not like mankind's judgment. Everything Christ does in this creation is based on His love for mankind, even His judgment.
Prov 28:5 Evil men understand not judgment: but they that seek the LORD understand all things.
Scripture says that Christ loves His enemies. Because He does, He will judgment them and destroy their carnal spiritual nature. The Elect are judged in this present age and the balance of mankind will be judged in the final age. When His judgment is complete, all mankind will saved and converted into child of God.
Joe
David in NJ
Well-Known Member
Good Morning Joe,
If you are nearby you can come over for a fresh cup-of-joe(coffee).
i read Post 26 = In it you suggest that God's eternal punishment redeems those who are cursed.
Please review these scriptures again and then find where God says HE will deliver those who are in eternal flames for rejecting the Gospel.
Then the righteous will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You drink? 38When did we see You a stranger and take You in, or naked and clothe You? 39Or when did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?’ 40And the King will answer and say to them, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.’
41“Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:
42for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink; 43I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.’
44“Then they also will answer [d]Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?’ 45Then He will answer them, saying, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’
46And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
Dear David in NJ,
I live in Colorado. If you are in New Jersey as your "member name" implies, I am not "near by". Thanks for the offer though.
The verses you quoted are referring to the White Throne Judgment. At that time, Christ separates His Elect from the "lost".
The Elect (those who are "chosen" from the foundation of the world) are the only ones who Christ is saving in this present age. They are called the "First Fruits" of His harvest. They are not the full harvest as most people believe. They are the early portion only. The full harvest of mankind comes at the end of the growing season. It is "typed" by the Feast of Tabernacles. The end of the growing season occurs at the end of the final age.
The Lake of Fire is a symbol for the judgment of Christ and it is not "everlasting". Here is how that verse should be translated:
Mat 25:46 And these shall go away to punishment age-during, but the righteous to life age-during.'
Since Christ does not change, neither does His judgment. Once the redeeming purpose of judgment is satisfied, Christ's judgment will end.
Consider these verses which apply to the "lost" who cast into the Lake of Fire in the final age:
Mat 21:31 Which of the two was obeying his father?" They replied, "The first, of course." Then Jesus explained his meaning: "I assure you, corrupt tax collectors and prostitutes will get into the Kingdom of God BEFORE YOU DO.
Christ is speaking to the elders and chief priests who crucified Him. They were not saved during their lifetimes. Now look at what Christ said to them: "I assure you, corrupt tax collectors and prostitutes will get into the Kingdom of God BEFORE YOU DO".
It was never a matter of "IF" Christ was going to save them, it was only a matter of "WHEN". For the elders and chief priests, their salvation will come at the end of the final age after they have been judged in the Lake of Fire and have paid "the last penny":
Luke 12:59 I tell you, you will not get out until you have paid the last penny.”
To accomplish mankind’s salvation, Christ created a pathway for mankind to travel. Once the pathway if fully traveled, the person will be saved and converted.
This plan involves a person traveling both the Wide Path to destruction and the Narrow Path to life.
Mat 4:4 But he answered and said, it is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.
Salvation comes to a person not just by consuming bread (truth), it also comes by consuming "leavened" bread.
I'll explain this truth by presenting the pathway to salvation the Elect will travel in this age:
- The receiving of the Early Rain of the Spirit and entering the church.
- The coming of the spirit of anti-Christ to a new believer. At that time, they consume Satan's leavened bread.
- Falling away and becoming a Man of Sin.
- Hearing and answering the call of Elijah so that the pathway for Christ is made straight.
- The receiving of the Latter Rain of the Spirit and the healing of the believer's spiritual blindness.
- The Second coming of Christ when He appears in the heavens and gathers the believer.
- The Marriage Supper when Christ feeds His truth of milk, bread, meat and New Wine to the believer.
- Judgment of the Day of the Lord.
- The time of testing.
- The bodily resurrection at the end of the age.
God established that mankind’s salvation will occur in two groups and at two different times.
The first group of mankind to be saved is the called & chosen group. They are the Elect, the First-Fruits of the harvest. They are saved in this present age.
The second group to be saved is the balance of mankind. They will be saved at the end of the next and final age.
When Christ’s work is finished, 100% of mankind will have the spiritual nature and mind of God. We will all truly be His children.
The salvation of mankind is a certainty. The Word of God proclaims it, God has spoken it and He will bring it to pass.
Isa 45:21 Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD? And there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me. 22 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else. 23 I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, that unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.
Isa 55:8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. 9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts. 10 For as the rain cometh down, and the snow from heaven, and returneth not thither, but watereth the earth, and maketh it bring forth and bud, that it may give seed to the sower, and bread to the eater: 11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it. 12 For ye shall go out with joy, and be led forth with peace: the mountains and the hills shall break forth before you into singing, and all the trees of the field shall clap their hands.
1Tim 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; 4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.
When a person understands Christ with a carnal mind, that mind refuses to believe that Christ can succeed in saving 100% of mankind.
However, when a person has the "mind of Christ", that mind will give them the faith they need to believe everything that Christ has said. That is the kind of "faith" that saves us.
It takes the same faith that Joshua and Caleb had when they spied out the Promised Land with the 10 other spies from the Nation of Israel. All twelve of the spies saw the “giants in the land” but only Joshua and Caleb had the faith to believe that those giants could be defeated. Those giants represent the strongholds of our carnal mind. Under the New Covenant, Christ will defeat them so that we can forever dwell in the Promised Land (Salvation, child of God). To get there, we must trust in Christ and walk by faith - and that ability comes from the work of Christ which He performs within us. He leaves nothing up to chance or to mankind’s “will”. Christ will give mankind all the necessary spiritual gifts that they need to be converted and saved. And Christ gives mankind those gifts solely because of His love & grace and not because of any free will “works” from mankind which most believe will make them worthy of His salvation.
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
Simply put, we are not saved because it is our “will” to be saved. We are saved because it is God’s “will” to save us.
He truly is a good and loving Father to us all.
Joe
David in NJ
Well-Known Member
Joe,
All the scriptures you post only speak of Salvation for those who put their trust in the God/Jesus/Truth = God's Will.
Revelation 21:5-8
And the One seated on the throne said, “Behold, I make all things new.” Then He said, “Write this down, for these words are faithful and true.” And He told me, “It is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. To the thirsty I will give freely from the spring of the water of life. The one who overcomes will inherit all things, and I will be his God, and he will be My son.
But to the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and sexually immoral and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their place will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur. This is the second death.”
There is no Salvation for those in the Lake of Fire = the Second Death.
Revelation 21:26-27
And into the City will be brought the glory and honor of the nations.
But nothing unclean will ever enter it, nor anyone who practices an abomination or a lie,
but only those whose names are written in the Lamb’s Book of Life.
Dear David in NJ:
You are right. The book of Revelation does not teach what will happen to the lost of the final age. In fact, it is almost completely silent on the what happens in the final age.
The book of Revelation was written to and for the Elect. They are the ones who will be "blessed" by "keeping the sayings of the prophecies" in this age. The prophecies of the book teach the Pathway to Salvation the Elect will travel and complete during their lifetimes. The book ends with the Elect's resurrection from the grave in chapter 20 and then a detailed description of them (as the Bride of Christ) is given in chapter 21.
In chapter 22, the book ends by presenting the Bride (Elect) and the Spirit (Christ) who make this offer to the lost of that final age:
Rev 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.
This is the same offer of salvation which Christ made when He secretly attended the Feast of Tabernacles.
John 7:10 But when his brethren were gone up, then went he also up unto the feast, not openly, but as it were in secret.
John 7:37 In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, if any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink. 38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.
Christ's offer of salvation is a "type" for what will happen at the end of the final age. In the verse, Christ went to the feast "not openly, but as it were in secret". This hidden aspect of Christ presented in the "type" represents that Christ will not openly appear to the "lost" when He first comes to them in the final age. He will keep Himself hidden from their understanding which is much like He does with the Elect in this age. Then when the full measure of time has come, Christ will call out to the "lost" and make the offer of salvation.
The Feast of Tabernacles is also a "type" for the great harvest of mankind which happens at the end of the final age.
Exo 23:16 And the feast of harvest, the firstfruits of thy labours, which thou hast sown in the field: and the feast of ingathering, which is in the end of the year, when thou hast gathered in thy labours out of the field.
The "first fruits" are the Elect who are harvested in this age. It is "typed" by the Feast of Weeks (first fruits). The Feast of Ingathering (same as the Feast of Tabernacles) is when the full harvest is brought into the barn at the end of year. These two feasts represents the complete harvest of mankind.
The story of Joseph and his brothers also presents a "type" of the final age when salvation comes to the physical Nation of Israel.
Paul talks about these "types" which the Old Testament stories teach to the Elect:
1Cor 10:11 Now all these things happened to them as types, and have been written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the ages are come.
In the verse above, Paul refers to the Elect as those to whom the "ends of the ages" have come. This is another piece of scripture which teaches what happens at the ends of the ages. The literal ends of the ages is when the full harvest of mankind is gathered in from the field. But since the Elect are First Fruits of that harvest and are gathered in early, it can be said that the "ends of the ages" have come upon them now.
In the story of Joseph and his brothers, Joseph is a "type" for Christ. His brothers are a "type" for the physical Nation of Israel. Pharaoh is a "type" for God the Father.
Also, keep in mind that the physical Nation of Israel will be the last group of mankind to be saved:
Mar 10:31 But many that are first shall be last; and the last first.
The physical Nation of Israel will be saved after the fullness of the Gentiles are saved in the final age.
Here are some key verses from the story:
Gen 42:6 And Joseph was the governor over the land, and he it was that sold to all the people of the land: and Joseph's brethren came, and bowed down themselves before him with their faces to the earth. 7 And Joseph saw his brethren, and he knew them, but made himself like a stranger unto them, and spake roughly unto them; and he said unto them, Whence come ye? And they said, From the land of Canaan to buy food.
Gen 45:1 Then Joseph could not refrain himself before all them that stood by him; and he cried, Cause every man to go out from me. And there stood no man with him, while Joseph made himself known unto his brethren. 2 And he wept aloud: and the Egyptians and the house of Pharaoh heard. 3 And Joseph said unto his brethren, I am Joseph; doth my father yet live? And his brethren could not answer him; for they were troubled at his presence. 4 And Joseph said unto his brethren, Come near to me, I pray you. And they came near. And he said, I am Joseph your brother, whom ye sold into Egypt. Now therefore be not grieved, nor angry with yourselves, that ye sold me hither: for God did send me before you to preserve life.
This verse below is what Joseph meant when He said "to preserve life":
Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
Gen 45:16 And the fame thereof was heard in Pharaoh's house, saying, Joseph's brethren are come: and it pleased Pharaoh well, and his servants.
This is when the "elders and chief priests" of Mat 21:31 are saved.
I highly recommend reading the full story of Joseph and his brothers in Egypt. The "type" teaches a wonderful truth to those who have "eyes" who can "see" it.
Joe
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God saves us, but there has to be something to save.
He does not save us, when we are nothing?
David in NJ
Well-Known Member
Good Morning Joe,
i am drinking my 'cup-o-joe' right now.
Speaking of Joe reminds me of Joseph from Genesis = YEAH - i know that Guy..........Great Truth in Joseph
Genesis/Joseph = The First Advent of Christ and Second Advent of Christ foretold/Prophecy all in one 2 Groups and 1 Person.
Now concerning Matt 21:28-32
This Passage can reflect on the Story of Joseph in this aspect = the First Son who said "No" but later repented.
This Passage does NOT state that God will save those who did NOT repent.
TRUTH FACT Check =
Which of the two did the will of his father?”
“The first,” they answered.
Jesus said to them, “Truly I tell you, the tax collectors and prostitutes are entering the kingdom of God before you.
For John came to you in a righteous way and you did not believe him, but the tax collectors and prostitutes did. And even after you saw this, you did not repent and believe him.
When Jesus said "before you" it does not mean that they will enter the kingdom eventually.
It means what HE said it means = this generation of religious people are UNREPENTENT = they did not heed the Prophet John
Therefore, those who did= tax collectors, prostitutes are currently entering into YESHUA who is the Kingdom of God.
Peace
Dear Gottservant,
I'm not sure what you are saying in your post. Why do you think I am saying that mankind is "nothing"?
Mankind is not nothing. We are made in the image of God and have self-consciousness. Though, mankind has fallen to the god of this world and has become his children, God (through Christ) will rectify that situation through His Son, Jesus Christ.
1John 4:14 And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Savior of the world.
If mankind wasn't "fallen", Christ would not need to come to us and save us.
However, God sees the value of mankind's fallen spiritual condition. He believes that for mankind to understand and appreciate the goodness of God (and to learn to trust Him), we all must become evil. And not just an ordinary level of evil. God wants mankind to become supremely evil and under the full spiritual influence of Satan.
This truth is hidden by the spiritual language of Christ.
Revelation chapter 17 explains how this supremely evil condition occurs within a person. I will briefly summarize it below.
Rev 17:3 So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.
This Seven Headed Beast with Ten Horns represents mankind in our unbelieving spiritual state. However, it is not the worsen spiritual state God wants us to have before He gives us salvation.
In chapter 17, the Beast (mankind) will change and be made "worse than the first". In Mat 12:43-45, Christ explains how and why a new believer will become "worse than the first". If I have not already represented and explained this scripture, let me know and I will.
The woman who rides and controls the Beast is the Great Harlot who represents mankind carnal nature. It is through her that Satan deceives mankind.
Rev 17:11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition. 12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.
The number "ten" represents "completeness". The "horns" represent what rules the head of the beast. These horns represent the complete ruling carnal thoughts and beliefs of mankind. They are said to be kings because these carnal beliefs rule over a person.
The verses also mention that the kings will receive "power" and a "kingdom" with the Beast for "one hour". An hour represents a short period of time. It is not a literal hour. The power which the kings (horns) receive comes from Satan when he places the spirit of anti-Christ within a newly "called out" believer. This event causes the Abomination of Desolation within the believer and they lose their salvation. At this point, they believer has become "worse than the first" as Christ taught in Mat 12:43-45.
The Beast who is the "eighth" is a symbol for the Man of Sin when the Beast is ruled by Satan. The number "eight" is a symbol for a new spiritual condition (worse than the first).
Rev 17:13 These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.
The horns which receive power from Satan have "one" mind. This is the mind of Satan who now has total control over what the Beast believes. Satan has made the carnal beliefs and thoughts of the person "worse than the first".
After this transformation of the Beast, the Great Harlot (the believer's carnal nature) is said to have become the habitation of "devils" (the spirit of anti-Christ):
Rev 18:2 And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.
Let's back up a bit now and look at the Seven Headed Beast in Revelation chapter 13.
Rev 13:1 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.
Do you see the difference in the description of this Beast and the Beast in Rev 17:3?
There is one significant difference. The Beast of Rev 13:1 has Ten Crowns upon the Ten Horns. The "crowns" represents Satan's control over the Horns (carnal thoughts and beliefs). This control is what makes the Beast "worse than the first".
With the addition of the crowns, we are being told that this Seven Headed Beast is the worsen spiritual condition of the believer. The Beast is the Man of Sin.
Rev 13:5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.
Here we are told that the Beast (Man of Sin) will continue for "forty two months". "Forty two months" is a symbol. It originates from Daniel's Seventy Weeks prophecy. It is the same symbol as "time, times and a half", "3 1/2 years" and "1260 days". That symbol reflects the last 3 1/2 years remaining of the 490 years of Daniel's prophecy. When those last 3 1/2 years are completely fulfilled within mankind, Dan 9:24 will be accomplished:
Dan 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
Since the New Covenant is a spiritual covenant (unlike the Old Covenant), the last 3 1/2 years are spiritually fulfilled within a person. This work of Christ will take two ages of time to complete since He must come to each person who has ever lived. The First Fruits (Elect) are saved first in this age, then at the end of the final, the balance of mankind will be saved and harvested at the time of the great ingathering (the Feast of Tabernacles).
Rev 13:11 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.
Chapter 13 continues by showing us a second Beast which is what gives "power" to the first Beast. This second Beast, who masquerades as Christ (two horns like a lamb), is the spirit of anti-Christ. Later in Revelation, this second Beast is called the False Prophet.
Now that the believer is in this worsened spiritual state, they are said to be represented by the number 666. The number six is a symbol which represents mankind. When it is repeated three times, the meaning of the number 3 is added. The number 3 represents a spiritual process. With this spiritual process, the mankind comes "worse than the first:; a Man of Sin.
In this final and worsen spiritual condition, an Elect believer is now ready for the second coming of Christ.
This verse applies:
Mat 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.
This “gospel of the kingdom” is speaking about Satan’s kingdom and his gospel (another gospel) which will fully indoctrinate and deceive the believer.
2Cor 11:4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit (spirit of anti-Christ), which ye have not received, or another gospel (Satan’s gospel), which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.
Satan’s kingdom is the same kingdom which is mentioned in the verse below:
Rev 17:12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.
The nations are the carnal thoughts and beliefs of the believer. After Satan’s gospel has been fully preached to all the nations, the believer will be made “worse than the first (Mat 12:43-45). After this happens, the believer is now ready for the “end” to come. The “end” is when Christ "comes again" to the believer and brings the ends of the ages.
When Christ comes this second time, He will pour out the Latter Rain of the Spirit and heal the believer's spiritual blindness. With their blindness now healed, they will "see" the Abomination of Desolation" which had occurred earlier within themselves. The Man of Sin whom they have become will also be revealed to them. Then, because of the brightness of Christ appearing through scripture, the Man of Sin will be destroyed. And with the gift of the Latter Rain, the Great Harlot (carnal nature) will also be destroyed. This event is called "conversion" and it is caused by the "Baptism of the Holy Spirit and by Fire:
Mat 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Spirit, AND with Fire: 12 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.
I have written a great deal about this subject so if you want a more detailed teaching on it, you can find it on my website: www.greatmysteryofchrist.com
Joe
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Dear David in NJ,
Good morning to you, too.
Mat 21:31 Whether of them twain did the will of his father? They say unto him, The first. Jesus saith unto them, Verily I say unto you, That the publicans and the harlots go into the kingdom of God before you.
I have looked at this verse carefully and it is properly translated. It clearly says "before you". As I said, it is never in doubt that Christ will save all mankind. The only question is "when" Christ will save us. He is only saving the Elect in this age. They are a very small group of "blessed" individuals. They were chosen from the foundation of the world.
John 15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.
Rom 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: 5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
Eph 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
If Christ had no intention of ever saving the elders and chief priests, He would have told them to their face right then. But because Christ only does the "will" of His Father and the Father sent Him to save the world, Christ will come to them in the final age and save them. They will NOT be heirs or First Fruits though. They will suffer the loss of that blessing, but they will still be saved in "due time".
1Tim 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior; 4 who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 6 who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.
I just posted a response to Gottservant. It explains more on the Pathway to Salvation which the book of Revelation teaches.
Joe
David in NJ
Well-Known Member
Joseppi,
You said: "If Christ had no intention of ever saving the elders and chief priests, He would have told them to their face right then."
Gospel News ALERT = Christ in FACT did tell them to their face = John chapter 8
“Abraham is our father,” they replied.
“If you were children of Abraham,” said Jesus, “you would do the works of Abraham. But now you are trying to kill Me, a man who has told you the truth that I heard from God. Abraham never did such a thing. You are doing the works of your father.”
“We are not illegitimate children,” they declared. “Our only Father is God Himself.”
Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I have come here from God. I have not come on My own, but He sent Me.
Why do you not understand what I am saying? It is because you are unable to accept My message.
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out his desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, refusing to uphold the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, because he is a liar and the father of lies. But because I speak the truth, you do not believe Me!
Which of you can prove Me guilty of sin? If I speak the truth, why do you not believe Me?
Whoever belongs to God hears the words of God. The reason you do not hear is that you do not belong to God.
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Dear David in NJ,
Christ does not tell them in the verses you quoted that they will never be saved. You are adding that to the story.
Christ merely points out to the Pharisees their true spiritual condition and tells them that they are not the true children of Abraham. Only the "spiritual" children of Abraham are his true children (Rom 2:29).
What if Paul (Saul) would have been standing with these Pharisees? Could Paul never be saved, too, as you contend about the Pharisees?
At that time, Paul would not have been any different than the Pharisees. He would have been just as much a child of the Devil as the Pharisees were. He would have even been a party to Christ's crucifixion. Does that make him impossible to save? Hardly not!
All mankind become children of the Devil shortly after birth. Then, after a person is called out from the world, they become an even worse child of the Devil; a Man of Sin. I pointed out this truth in my last post to Gottservant. Does being a child of the Devil make it impossible for Christ to save any of mankind?
To be saved, we must become a Man of Sin first before Christ will "come again" to us and bring salvation.
Heb 9:28 So Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.
When Christ appears the second time, He will pour out the Latter Rain of the Spirit (what the Apostles received on the Day of Pentecost) and give the believer a new birth. His judgment will then destroy the Man of Sin from within the believer. This is what it means to be converted.
Note: Christ does NOT appear to the believer when He calls them out from the world with the Early Rain (the Holy Spirit of Promise, Eph 1:13-14). Paul "typed" this truth when he was 'called out" on the Damascus Road. Also, Mark 8:21-25 teaches this truth.
When Christ comes to these same Pharisees in the final age, He can just as easily convert them as He converted Paul in Damascus.
Let me ask you this:
What would scripture have to say for you to believe that Christ is the Savior of the world? Exactly how would scripture have to state that truth for you to believe it? Can you write it out for me to read?
Whatever you may write, it couldn't possibly be any clearer than this scripture:
1Tim 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior; 4 who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 6 who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.
What is stopping you from believing what Paul stated above?
Do you believe it just isn't true; that Paul was mistaken?
Joe
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Davy
Well-Known Member
Sorry, but your mind is on whims and fancies from men's traditions. Christ's Book of Revelation can only be understood in context with the WHOLE BIBLE, especially in the Old Testament. So those who lack Old Testament Bible study will continually miss Christ's Messages in it. It is written in the writing style of the Old Testament prophets, so that ought to tell one something about where the symbology came from and the quick moving timelines. It even has many direct parallels with the Book of Genesis.
Just because John was given the visions by Christ to write down His Revelation doesn't mean those were all fulfilled in John's day. The time of the Book is... STILL FUTURE, just as even the Book of Genesis still has future prophecy in it.
Even Christ's 7 Messages that were originally written for the 7 Churches in Asia (Minor) are STILL IN EFFECT FOR ALL CHURCHES TO THIS DAY. So no wonder Jesus included the idea of His future return and reward in them and command for us to overcome, huh?
You obviously need to get out more, Biblically speaking about study of ALL The Bible, and not just selective pieces that men's traditions only use to devise their own teaching.
David in NJ
Well-Known Member
So you believe that the Devil/Satan and his children are welcome into the Kingdom of God = 'come as you are'?
Dear Davy,
I used to believe as you do, but after my conversion in 2005, everything changed for me. At that time, Christ healed my spiritual blindness and the truth of scripture opened up to me. Then, after great searching (even with "eyes that can see), I found the hidden treasure of God:
Prov 2:1 My son, if you receive my words and treasure up my commandments with you, 2 making your ear attentive to wisdom and inclining your heart to understanding; 3 yes, if you call out for insight and raise your voice for understanding, 4 if you seek it like silver and search for it as for hidden treasures, 5 then you will understand the fear of the Lord and find the knowledge of God.
Mark 8:15-25 teaches when a believer's spiritual blindness is healed. Until that event happens within the life of a believer, they will remain spiritually blind and will not be able to understand the truth of Christ.
Mark 8:15 And he charged them, saying, take heed, beware of the leaven of the Pharisees, and of the leaven of Herod. 16 And they reasoned among themselves, saying, it is because we have no bread. 17 And when Jesus knew it, he saith unto them, why reason ye, because ye have no bread? perceive ye not yet, neither understand? have ye your heart yet hardened? 18 Having eyes, see ye not? and having ears, hear ye not? and do ye not remember? 19 When I broke the five loaves among five thousand, how many baskets full of fragments took ye up? They say unto him, Twelve. 20 And when the seven among four thousand, how many baskets full of fragments took ye up? And they said, Seven. 21 And he said unto them, how is it that ye do not understand?
In these verses, Christ is giving His disciples a lesson on the spiritual language of God's Word - His language. At this point in time (before they were converted at Pentecost), the disciples had not yet received the Baptism of the Holy Spirit (Latter Rain) and because of such, they were still spiritually blind. They had been called out from the world (as was the whole Nation of Israel), but they still could not understand what Christ was teaching them. After Christ’s short lesson, He ends it by asking them this question: “How is it that ye do not understand”? No response from the Apostles is recorded in scripture. However, Christ answers His own question in the very next four verses.
Mark 8:22 And he cometh to Bethsaida; and they bring a blind man unto him, and besought him to touch him. 23 And he took the blind man by the hand, and led him out of the town; and when he had spit on his eyes, and put his hands upon him, he asked him if he saw ought. 24 And he looked up, and said, I see men as trees, walking. 25 After that he put his hands again upon his eyes, and made him look up: and he was restored, and saw every man clearly.
Since Christ is the Word of God, He teaches us not only through His words which are recorded in scripture but also by the things He did. In answering the question that He proposed to the disciples in verse 21, Christ goes to Bethsaida and gives us His answer in type by the healing of a blind man. This type is the same type which Christ uses with the Old Testament events to teach His spiritual truths.
In verse 23, Christ leads a blind man out of the city. Once outside the city, Christ places spit on his eyes and touches him with His hands. These actions occur as the blind man is looking down which symbolizes the carnal aspect of His healing. Christ does not have to tell the blind man to look down, the blind man just does it naturally. The spit (water) symbolizes the blind man receiving the Early Rain of the Spirit with its accompanying vision (understanding). This event represents the time when an unbeliever is called out from the world and enters the church. After Christ asks the man what he could see, the man looks up and says that he could see men walking as trees. "Walking as Trees" is a spiritual symbol for called out believers who walk by sight rather than by faith. At this point, the blind man is a type of a called out believer. The man’s blindness was not total any longer but he was still very near-sighted.
This first healing of the blind man reflects the true spiritual condition of a new believer when they first enter the church. At that time, they are left carnally minded and spiritually near-sighted. They can see a little but that only opens the door to Satan's deceptions - deceptions which each new believer readily accepts due to their carnal nature still being in control of them.
Peter says this near-sighted condition is the same as being blind:
2Pet 1:9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.
In the final verse of the story, Christ lays His hands upon the man’s eyes again, but as He does, Christ has the man look up instead of down. This second healing represents the Latter Rain of the Spirit when true spiritual vision is given to the believer. The man’s upward gaze represents the spiritual aspect of the healing in contrast to the carnal aspect when the blind man was looking down at the earth. From that moment onward, we now know that the blind man is a type of a called and chosen believer who has received both the Early and Latter Rains. He has been given eyes that can see. From his new ability to understand God's Word, he will then come out from Satan's deceptions and will begin walking by faith. He will be included in the resurrection of the First Fruits and will receive life during the ages.
Mat 25:46 And these shall go away to punishment age-during, but the righteous to life age-during.'
For those who were not chosen and were not given eyes that can see, they will go away to judgment and will suffer loss but by the end of that age, they too "shall be saved, yet so by fire":
1Cor 3:13 Every man’s work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. 14 If any man's work abides which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. 15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
Joe
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