If you think Mary remained a virgin till she died, then bet on it

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BlessedPeace

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I didn't say the words "adelphoi" (sing. adelphos; pl. ἀδελφοὶ adelphoi) and "αδελφαι" (sing. adelphē; pl. αδελφαι adelphai), or "brothers" and "sisters" in English, can't refer to a sibling. I said one definition those words share is "near kinsman, or relative" and that a male/female kinsman/relative can be a sibling, cousin, nephew, niece, uncle, or aunt, etc.

We agree the definition that applies to the words "adelphoi" and "αδελφαι" in Matt. 13:55-56/Mk. 6:3-4 is "near kinsman, or relative", but those words themselves don't indicate which type of kinship applies, e.g., sibling, cousin, nephew, niece, uncle, or aunt, etc. For this reason, merely citing verses with the words "adelphoi" and "αδελφαι" and basically saying "See, they were Jesus's siblings!" is assuming that type of kinship applies, but an assumption isn't proof.

In the opening post of my thread, I provided evidence that confirms Joseph, Simon, James, and Judas (Jude/Thaddeus) in Matt. 13:55/Mk. 6:3 were Jesus's brothers, as in kinsmen, and shows that the type of kinship between them and Jesus was that of cousins, because they were the sons of Joseph's brother, Alphaeus, and his wife Mary of Alphaeus (Clopas/Cleophas). This was accomplished primarily by identifying James.
That Jesus had brothers and sisters is not in dispute. Therefore, that Mary their mother was not a single woman to the day she died, being the wife of Joseph, or was not a "virgin", to the day she died, is also not in dispute. Given human anatomy and reproduction, is not in dispute.

δελφός (adelphos)
Strong: G80
GK: G81
a brother, near kinsman or relative; one of the same nation or nature; one of equal rank and dignity; an associate, a member of the Christian community
See everywhere adelphos appears in the New Testament via BillMounce.com.

If we want to be technical we can state Jesus brothers and sisters were his half siblings. Because while their father was Mary's husband Joseph, Jesus Father was God.

In John 19 wherein Jesus from the cross says John is now Mary's son, and Mary was John's mother, we must I think remember the culture.

Jesus,Mary's first child,was the eldest of her children.He was naturally obligated to care for her. Therefore, when he was on the cross he gave over his duty to the disciple whom he loved,John. And because his brothers were not present.


Mary was not a virgin to the day she died,or to the moment of her assumption,for those who believe in that. Just because the church claims she was virgin throughout does not make it true. And is not evidence it is true.

In fact that Jesus had half sisters and brothers,as we are told,proves it cannot and is not true.

While tradition that manipulates scripture to say the contrary is Eisegesus.And a shame.

The truth does not change because Eisegesis wishes to take its place.
 
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Cassandra

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I'm still trying to figure out what good a bet would be? Let's assume @Sigma has an extra 100 laying around and I match that? what was the purpose of the bet?How do you determine who won?
Qui bono?
Who gets the money-- Tony?


1695754988530.png
 

Sigma

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once again, this does not prove your point

Once again, in the opening post of my thread, I provided evidence that confirms Joseph, Simon, James, and Judas (Jude/Thaddeus) in Matt. 13:55/Mk. 6:3 were Jesus's brothers, as in kinsmen, and shows that the type of kinship between them and Jesus was that of cousins, because they were the sons of Joseph's brother, Alphaeus, and his wife Mary of Alphaeus (Clopas/Cleophas). This was accomplished primarily by identifying James.
 

Sigma

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That Jesus had brothers and sisters is not in dispute. Therefore, that Mary their mother was not a single woman to the day she died, being the wife of Joseph, or was not a "virgin", to the day she died, is also not in dispute. Given human anatomy and reproduction, is not in dispute.

δελφός (adelphos)
Strong: G80
GK: G81
a brother, near kinsman or relative; one of the same nation or nature; one of equal rank and dignity; an associate, a member of the Christian community
See everywhere adelphos appears in the New Testament via BillMounce.com.

If we want to be technical we can state Jesus brothers and sisters were his half siblings. Because while their father was Mary's husband Joseph, Jesus Father was God.

In John 19 wherein Jesus from the cross says John is now Mary's son, and Mary was John's mother, we must I think remember the culture.

Jesus,Mary's first child,was the eldest of her children.He was naturally obligated to care for her. Therefore, when he was on the cross he gave over his duty to the disciple whom he loved,John. And because his brothers were not present.


Mary was not a virgin to the day she died,or to the moment of her assumption,for those who believe in that. Just because the church claims she was virgin throughout does not make it true. And is not evidence it is true.

In fact that Jesus had half sisters and brothers,as we are told,proves it cannot and is not true.

While tradition that manipulates scripture to say the contrary is Eisegesus.And a shame.

The truth does not change because Eisegesis wishes to take its place.

I've already done the work to prove my position, which is that Joseph, Simon, James, and Judas (Jude/Thaddeus) were the sons of Joseph's brother, Alphaeus, and his wife Mary of Cleophas (Clopas/Alphaeus), and thus were in fact Jesus's brothers, as in kinsmen, specifically cousins.

However, that doesn't guarantee you'll accept the Truth of this, and you don't, so I'm going to try a different approach: show that Jesus's brothers Joseph, Simon, James, and Judas (Jude/Thaddeus) were His siblings, verse by verse below:

Note: The words "ἀδελφός" (sing. adelphos; pl. ἀδελφοὶ adelphoi) and "αδελφαι" (sing. adelphē; pl. αδελφαι adelphai), or "brother" and "sister" in English, have multiple definitions, e.g., "fellow-countryman", "disciple/follower", "one of the same faith", and "a near kinsman, or relative", etc. Additionally, the word "ἀδελφός" (sing. adelphos; pl. ἀδελφοὶ adelphoi) in the plural regularly refers to men and women.

I. "Is this not the carpenter’s son? Is His mother not called Mary, and His brothers, James, Joseph, Simon, and Judas? 56 And His sisters, are they not all with us?" (Matt. 13:55-56)
Is this not the carpenter, the son of Mary and brother of James, Joses, Judas, and Simon? And are His sisters not here with us?” (Mk. 6:3-4)


Matt. 13:55 and Mk. 6:3 are two accounts of the same scene. We agree the definition that applies to the words "ἀδελφοί" (pl. ἀδελφοὶ adelphoi) and "αδελφαι" (pl. αδελφαι adelphai) in Matt. 13:55-56/Mk. 6:3-4 is "a near kinsman, or relative", but a kinsman/kinswoman/relative can be a sibling, cousin, nephew, niece, uncle, or aunt, etc., and the words themselves don't indicate which type of kinship applies. What evidence do you have, if any, that shows the type of kinship that applies to Jesus's brothers and sisters here is siblings?

II. "While He was still speaking to the crowds, behold, His mother and brothers were standing outside, seeking to speak to Him". (Matt. 12:46)
"Then His mother and His brothers came..." (Mk. 3:31)
"Now His mother and brothers came to Him..." (Lk. 8:19)


Matt. 12:46, Mk. 3:31, and Lk. 8:19 are three accounts of the same scene, and the word used in each is "ἀδελφοί" (pl. ἀδελφοὶ adelphoi) or "brothers" in English. What evidence do you have, if any, that shows the definition "a near kinsman, or relative" applies here; that the type of kinship that applies here is siblings; and that those brothers were specifically some or all of Jesus's male brothers named in Matt. 13:55/Mk. 6:3, and which ones?

III. "After this He went down to Capernaum, He and His mother, and His brothers and His disciples; and they stayed there a few days." (Jn. 2:12)

What evidence do you have, if any, that shows the definition "a near kinsman, or relative" applies here; that the type of kinship that applies here is siblings; and that the brothers here were specifically some or all of Jesus's male brothers named in Matt. 13:55/Mk. 6:3, and which ones?

IV. "For not even His brothers believed in Him". (Jn. 7:5)

What evidence do you have, if any, that shows the definition "a near kinsman, or relative" applies here; that the type of kinship that applies here is siblings; and that those brothers were specifically some or all of Jesus's male brothers named in Matt. 13:55/Mk. 6:3, and which ones?

V. "All these were continually devoting themselves with one mind to prayer, along with the women, and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with His brothers". (Ac. 1:14)

What evidence do you have, if any, that shows the definition "a near kinsman, or relative" applies here; that the type of kinship that applies here is siblings; and that the brothers here were specifically some or all of Jesus's male brothers named in Matt. 13:55/Mk. 6:3, and which ones?

VI. "But I did not see another one of the apostles except James, the Lord’s brother". (Gal. 1:19)

The James called Jesus's brother in Gal. 1:19 is also called an apostle in that same verse, and there's only two apostles named "James": James of Zebedee and James of Alphaeus. Therefore, how could this James be the sibling of Jesus?

VII. "Do we not have a right to take along a believing wife, even as the rest of the apostles and the brothers of the Lord, and Cephas?" (1 Cor. 9:5)

What evidence do you have, if any, that shows the definition "a near kinsman, or relative" applies here; that the type of kinship that applies here is siblings; and that the brothers here were specifically some or all of Jesus's male brothers named in Matt. 13:55/Mk. 6:3, and which ones?
 
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BlessedPeace

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I'm still trying to figure out what good a bet would be? Let's assume @Sigma has an extra 100 laying around and I match that? what was the purpose of the bet?How do you determine who won?
Qui bono?
Who gets the money-- Tony?


View attachment 36651
I understood the wager to be figurative.
While at this point it appears the side bet is to see for how long we will argue against an unbiblical claim against Mary,Joseph and Jesus and Jesus' siblings.


A lie does not become truth.
 
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Nancy

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Fear of what?
The constant thought that God was always angry with us and will send us to hell for not believing "their" doctrines and rituals and rites of men. Plus, they teach their congregants MUST give them money. It should be given ONLY from the heart as Christ said. This "tithing" is OT and if I had some wheat or barley, I don't have any.
 
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Sigma

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The constant thought that God was always angry with us and will send us to hell for not believing "their" doctrines and rituals and rites of men. Plus, they teach their congregants MUST give them money.

Sorry to hear that. I'm 35 years old and have been a Catholic all my life, as well as my mom and three siblings, and none of us have never had that thought, nor seen any of that taught. Nor has my dad who converted from Lutheran to Catholic, nor my best friend who converted from atheism to Catholicism. Who taught you all that?? Your parents, a priest...?
 

Nancy

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Sorry to hear that. I'm 35 years old and have been a Catholic all my life, as well as my mom and three siblings, and none of us have never had that thought, nor seen any of that taught. Nor has my dad who converted from Lutheran to Catholic, nor my best friend who converted from atheism to Catholicism. Who taught you all that?? Your parents, a priest...?
The scriptures taught me all of that and it is NOT unheard of at all to share these very same experiences' as my family of 9. We got zero teaching, had no clue as a newborn that I was just forced into a "RELIGION" I knew nothing about as I was an infant! There is no where in scripture that has an infant being baptized. Joseph knew NOT his wife Mary, TILL the firstborn, which was Jesus. (Which indicates that she HAD to have had more children) If as you say she was a virgin. Catholics I guess, think that having relations with your husband is a horrible sin! Mary was simply a vessel to carry Jesus and she believed the angel Gabriel. You all want to confuse things like "cousin, kinsman, friend, with BROTHER.

“Isn't this the carpenter's son? Isn't his mother's name Mary, and aren't his brothers James, Joseph, Simon and Judas? Aren't all his sisters with us? Where then did this man get all these things?” And they took offense at him."

Just a cursory read of this scripture verse shows that his hometown knew Jesus and his whole family from his birth on, as well as his sisters and brothers. I serve Jesus, NOT the "Catholic church".
we need not discuss any further please, this has been going round and round and round on this site a million times, it's insanity! You alone, and all of us will not be facing judgement day with the church, family, pastors...we will be alone and naked before Him. Nothing hidden. I'm not stating that "all CC go to hell, not at all. Those who put more to the fruit of the Spirit and not to mention, Jesus said you "MUST" be born again...MUST. My Gram on mom's side was a staunch die hard Catholic and I believe with all my heart that she is with The Lord now. She exhibited ALL of the fruit of the Spirit, at all times. She lived her faith. So, let's not drag this over discussed issue, we just hear the same ole same ole with nothing panning out, scripture wise. I am very Sola Scriptura...
Be blessed in HIM amen!
 

Sigma

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The scriptures taught me all of that...

You said the Catholic Church taught you fear and when I asked fear of what you said, "The constant thought that God was always angry with us and will send us to hell for not believing "their" doctrines and rituals and rites of men. Plus, they teach their congregants MUST give them money." So, now you're saying the Scriptures taught you all that?...
 
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Nancy

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You said the Catholic Church taught you fear and when I asked fear of what you said, "The constant thought that God was always angry with us and will send us to hell for not believing "their" doctrines and rituals and rites of men. Plus, they teach their congregants MUST give them money." So, now you're saying the Scriptures taught you all that?...
Absolutely! Upon asking a Catholic priest as to why they do not teach in the CC, he said "because it's not a classroom"!!! Shocking to say the least. God has placed "teachers" within the body.

Jesus says to give what and when you can. And telling a perfect stranger your sins is ridiculous! Did they forget that the temple curtain was rent in two? To open the way for us to go BOLDLY to the throne of God, with NO mediator BUT Christ.

You would be surprised with what the scriptures teach.

"ALL scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:"

"Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth."
2 Timothy 2:15


Hebrews 11:6

6 "But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him."

"And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues."

2 Timothy 3:17

 
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Sigma

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Absolutely!

So, the Scriptures, not the Catholic Church as you initially said, taught you that God is always angry with you and will send you to hell for not believing the Catholic Church's doctrines, rituals and rites of men, and that congregants MUST give the Catholic Church money?
 

Nancy

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So, the Scriptures, not the Catholic Church as you initially said, taught you that God is always angry with you and will send you to hell for not believing the Catholic Church's doctrines, rituals and rites of men, and that congregants MUST give the Catholic Church money?
NO! Not that! This is what scripture taught me. Re-quoting:


"ALL scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:"

"Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth."
2 Timothy 2:15


Hebrews 11:6
6 "But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him."

"And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues."
2 Timothy 3:17


 

Sigma

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NO! Not that! This is what scripture taught me. Re-quoting:


"ALL scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:"

"Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth."
2 Timothy 2:15


Hebrews 11:6

6 "But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him."

"And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues."

2 Timothy 3:17


So, who taught you that God is always angry with you and will send you to hell for not believing the Catholic Church's doctrines, rituals and rites of men, and that congregants MUST give the Catholic Church money?
 

Nancy

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So, who taught you that God is always angry with you and will send you to hell for not believing the Catholic Church's doctrines, rituals and rites of men, and that congregants MUST give the Catholic Church money?
I was raised Catholic, I KNOW people who were asked to leave as they never "tithed". The scriptures taught me that all the "traditions of men" are nothing. The scriptures taught me that "It is appointed for man to die once, then the judgement" Hence no purgatory IMHO. The Catholic Church completely removed the 2nd commandment, "Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven images", and separated the 10th commandment, "Thou shall not covet", into two separate commandments to make up for the 2nd commandment they deleted. Why did they do this? Hmm, yeah.
The scriptures taught me that Catholics think they are the only "true" church...hahaha. I never said the CC "told" or "taught" me anything; on the contrary I stated that they did NOT teach me a thing.
The scripture taught me that Mary is definitely NOT co-equal to Christ, she herself needed redemption as much as you and I! Yes, she is honored among women because she believed God and obeyed.
And, I NEVER said the CC actually taught me to be afraid of God, it is just how the church, religious "instruction" classes, and nuns left us believing He was angry so we had to go to His mother to go to Christ so He could approach His Father. That is not scriptural.

Now, this has gone on too long already, let us stick to the topic please?
I've lot's of other posts I've not even looked at yet.
God bless and, I've said all I have to say.
 
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Sigma

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I was raised Catholic, I KNOW people who were asked to leave as they never "tithed". The scriptures taught me that all the "traditions of men" are nothing. The scriptures taught me that "It is appointed for man to die once, then the judgement" Hence no purgatory IMHO. The Catholic Church completely removed the 2nd commandment, "Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven images", and separated the 10th commandment, "Thou shall not covet", into two separate commandments to make up for the 2nd commandment they deleted. Why did they do this? Hmm, yeah.
The scriptures taught me that Catholics think they are the only "true" church...hahaha. I never said the CC "told" or "taught" me anything; on the contrary I stated that they did NOT teach me a thing.
The scripture taught me that Mary is definitely NOT co-equal to Christ, she herself needed redemption as much as you and I! Yes, she is honored among women because she believed God and obeyed.
And, I NEVER said the CC actually taught me to be afraid of God, it is just how the church, religious "instruction" classes, and nuns left us believing He was angry so we had to go to His mother to go to Christ so He could approach His Father. That is not scriptural.

Now, this has gone on too long already, let us stick to the topic please?
I've lot's of other posts I've not even looked at yet.
God bless and, I've said all I have to say.

I wouldve liked to clarify misconceptions you have about Catholicism if you had allowed me.
 

Nancy

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I wouldve liked to clarify misconceptions you have about Catholicism if you had allowed me.
Every Catholic would like to "educate" those of us who were brought up Catholic, I have no misconceptions. The bible is my only source, NOT the CC.
Thank you but, againh, let's close this out.
God bless brother.
 

Sigma

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Every Catholic would like to "educate" those of us who were brought up Catholic, I have no misconceptions. The bible is my only source, NOT the CC.
Thank you but, againh, let's close this out.
God bless brother.

If you were supposedly brought up Catholic, you still have misconceptions about Catholicism by the things you said, and I wouldve been happy to clarify them for you, had you allowed me to. And, I'm a female not a male. God bless you too
 

Nancy

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If you were supposedly brought up Catholic, you still have misconceptions about Catholicism by the things you said, and I wouldve been happy to clarify them for you, had you allowed me to. And, I'm a female not a male. God bless you too
So sorry to have called you a "he", it's hard to tell. I am a almost 66 year old woman, following Christ since 1991. Not without backsliding once. But our gracious Father welcomed his prodigal daughter back into His arms. Thank you Lord!
That was decades ago. I'm good in knowing what I believe and, if I am wrong, He will or would have shown me, or taught me different through His word. I do not get "swept up by every wind of doctrine..." any longer and it feels good to just rest in Him and Him alone. I do honestly thank you very much though, for offering to clarify my "misconceptions". I do not and will never bash any denomination and...I know CC does not see themselves as a "denomination" but for brevity's sake :)
God bless and keep you in Him always
Peace sister.
 
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Sigma

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So sorry to have called you a "he", it's hard to tell. I am a almost 66 year old woman, following Christ since 1991. Not without backsliding once. But our gracious Father welcomed his prodigal daughter back into His arms. Thank you Lord!
That was decades ago. I'm good in knowing what I believe and, if I am wrong, He will or would have shown me, or taught me different through His word. I do not get "swept up by every wind of doctrine..." any longer and it feels good to just rest in Him and Him alone. I do honestly thank you very much though, for offering to clarify my "misconceptions". I do not and will never bash any denomination and...I know CC does not see themselves as a "denomination" but for brevity's sake :)
God bless and keep you in Him always
Peace sister.

No worries, just wanted to clarify since it is hard to tell. And, if you ever want me to clarify those misconceptions you have about Catholicism, just ask.
 
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BlessedPeace

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It's interesting that Mary's sex life is now in at least two different threads.

When I saw this thread title again the first thing that came to mind was, if you think Mary remained a virgin till she died... get a grip on reality and face biblical facts! Virgins don't have children, and Jesus had siblings.
Get over it! The bible isn't what you want it to be. It's what God wants it to say.

Why are we arguing with those who don't believe that? hmmx1:


,
 
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