I'm starting to move away from "pretend Christianity"

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ElieG12

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St. SteVen said:
How did they get born again before Bibles were available?

Every common person before 1611 AD had access to a Bible.
They did exist.
It was argued that no one can be saved without a Bible. ("the Word of God")

/
And why "every common person" would be "born again"?

Jesus spoke of something conditional, which evidently not everyone can acquire.

John 3:3 In response Jesus said to him: “Most truly I say to you, unless anyone is born again, he cannot see the Kingdom of God.” 4 Nic·o·deʹmus said to him: “How can a man be born when he is old? He cannot enter into the womb of his mother a second time and be born, can he?” 5 Jesus answered: “Most truly I say to you, unless anyone is born from water and spirit, he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God. 6 What has been born from the flesh is flesh, and what has been born from the spirit is spirit. 7 Do not be amazed because I told you: You people must be born again.

And Peter clarified that it is the Father who makes this new birth occur:

1 Pet. 1:3 Praised be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, for according to his great mercy he gave us a new birth to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, (...) 23 For you have been given a new birth, not by corruptible, but by incorruptible seed, through the word of the living and enduring God.

What does God have to do with people who have no relationship with Him?

Gal. 4:8 Nevertheless, when you did not know God, you were enslaved to those who are not really gods. 9 But now that you have come to know God or, rather, have come to be known by God, how is it that you are turning back again to the weak and beggarly elementary things and want to slave for them over again?
 

O'Darby

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I'm going to wrap up my participation by clarifying what I really should have said. I'm not really moving away from "pretend Christianity." I'm moving away from pretending there is any such thing as Christianity. There is no such animal. There is only, for each of us, "What I believe." Whether it's "Christian," or whether this label is even significant, God will decide in the end.

At every level and every twist and turn of that which calls itself "Christianity," there is such an absurd diversity of understandings and beliefs that to pretend there is some cohesiveness, that we are all (or even significant numbers of us) somehow brothers and sisters in Christ, is just silly. "Christianity" is, in fact, ten or more distinct religions. But the reality is more basic even than this.

Religious belief is fundamentally an indivdual matter. Look into the hearts and minds of 100 Catholics or 100 Southern Baptists and I feel sure you'll find 100 distinct beliefs, even if they mouth many of the same words and manage to congregate without openly snarling at each other. Bring "Christians" together at a forum such as this and the facade collapses completely. We each believe what we are capable of believing and have reached some level of conviction is true.

There is, of course, lots of pretending. As I explained in my thread about Stages of Faith, the large majority of people are at, and remain at, the lower stages where faith is largely unexamined and is mostly a matter of following the teachings of authority figures. The folks at the lower levels tend to be shallowly cocksure, intolerant and defensive. Their religion leaves no room for mystery, ambiguity or doubt. They predominate at sites such as this because they predominate everywhere - not just within "Christianity" but in every religion. They do serve the useful purpose, as they have on this very thread, of starkly illustrating that there is really no such animal as Christianity.

There is only what I believe, what you believe and what everyone else believes. You aren't my brothers and sisters just because you use the label "Christian." You're just people who believe what you believe, some of which happens to mesh with what I believe and some of which doesn't. I don't care what you call it. I don't care what you call my beliefs. There's no magic in the term "Christian." God, if He exists, will be the sole arbiter of how our individual beliefs and individual lives stacked up.

So that's what I'm really moving away from: this illusory thing that goes by the name "Christianity." All that I or anyone else can honestly say is, "I believe what I believe - call it whatever you want." In my little belief system, Jesus would be utterly aghast at what has become of His message. I believe that "Christianity" in all its institutional varieties has close to nothing to do with anything He was talking about. Perhaps I'm wrong and the most rigid, literal, dogmatic Bible-thumping denominations are correct, but all I can do is believe what I believe. There are surely many individual believers whose lives are as pleasing to God as mine, or much more so, but I believe "Christianity" as a whole isn't worth the effort of even pretending it exists.
 

Behold

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Because you are claiming to know something that it is humanly impossible to know

The fact is..... Bro @marks .. does know.
He is not guessing.
See, "He that doth not have the Spirit of God, is none of His"...... while "all who are led of the Spirit of God": are real Christians.

So, when a person has met the Truth, who is John 14:6, they know it, and the reason is... = is because the Truth Lives in them.

This is the exact same reason that Christ "Knows" every born again Believer, as How can Jesus not "know you" if the person is "in Christ", and "Christ IN YOU< is the hope of Glory" (Glory is heaven).

See, CHRISTianity is Christ come to live in the believer, and this is REAL. It REALLY happens and did, if the person is BORN... again, and not just water baptized and religious, or similar.

Bro @marks , could write you a LIST of things that he can look back on in His life, that is/are LITERAL Evidence of GOD in His Life , inside Him.

Any real Believer, born again, who is saved 10 -50 yrs, can look back at their life and see all the place where God protected them, or healed them, or helped them, or led them.

What is that?

That is.>"led of the Spirit",... EVIDENCE..... and "if you have not the Spirit IN You" then you wont have all those EVIDENCES, but you will have a lot of DOUBT.
 

ElieG12

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There is a REAL Christendom in this world. It is the false religious global representation of the real organization that Jesus leads. It is composed by many different sects and even individuals, who got a false idea in their mind that it has anything to do with the Church the Scriptures talk about. They think the real Church is within that false representation as a somehow virtual way.

Evidently in this world there is a nemesis of that Christendom, the real organization that is in Jesus' hands:

Rev. 1:20 As for the sacred secret of the seven stars that you saw in my right hand and of the seven golden lampstands: The seven stars mean the angels of the seven congregations, and the seven lampstands mean the seven congregations.

Matt. 28:19 Go, therefore, and make disciples of people of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the holy spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all the things I have commanded you. And look! I am with you all the days until the conclusion of the system of things.
 

Episkopos

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I'm going to wrap up my participation by clarifying what I really should have said. I'm not really moving away from "pretend Christianity." I'm moving away from pretending there is any such thing as Christianity. There is no such animal. There is only, for each of us, "What I believe." Whether it's "Christian," or whether this label is even significant, God will decide in the end.

At every level and every twist and turn of that which calls itself "Christianity," there is such an absurd diversity of understandings and beliefs that to pretend there is some cohesiveness, that we are all (or even significant numbers of us) somehow brothers and sisters in Christ, is just silly. "Christianity" is, in fact, ten or more distinct religions. But the reality is more basic even than this.

Religious belief is fundamentally an indivdual matter. Look into the hearts and minds of 100 Catholics or 100 Southern Baptists and I feel sure you'll find 100 distinct beliefs, even if they mouth many of the same words and manage to congregate without openly snarling at each other. Bring "Christians" together at a forum such as this and the facade collapses completely. We each believe what we are capable of believing and have reached some level of conviction is true.

There is, of course, lots of pretending. As I explained in my thread about Stages of Faith, the large majority of people are at, and remain at, the lower stages where faith is largely unexamined and is mostly a matter of following the teachings of authority figures. The folks at the lower levels tend to be shallowly cocksure, intolerant and defensive. Their religion leaves no room for mystery, ambiguity or doubt. They predominate at sites such as this because they predominate everywhere - not just within "Christianity" but in every religion. They do serve the useful purpose, as they have on this very thread, of starkly illustrating that there is really no such animal as Christianity.

There is only what I believe, what you believe and what everyone else believes. You aren't my brothers and sisters just because you use the label "Christian." You're just people who believe what you believe, some of which happens to mesh with what I believe and some of which doesn't. I don't care what you call it. I don't care what you call my beliefs. There's no magic in the term "Christian." God, if He exists, will be the sole arbiter of how our individual beliefs and individual lives stacked up.

So that's what I'm really moving away from: this illusory thing that goes by the name "Christianity." All that I or anyone else can honestly say is, "I believe what I believe - call it whatever you want." In my little belief system, Jesus would be utterly aghast at what has become of His message. I believe that "Christianity" in all its institutional varieties has close to nothing to do with anything He was talking about. Perhaps I'm wrong and the most rigid, literal, dogmatic Bible-thumping denominations are correct, but all I can do is believe what I believe. There are surely many individual believers whose lives are as pleasing to God as mine, or much more so, but I believe "Christianity" as a whole isn't worth the effort of even pretending it exists.
I think you are right. The religion of men has failed. But the kingdom of God is still there...to be entered into by faith. Not religious beliefs...but real faith. Faith that God accepts (not men)

Modern Christianity is supported by religious beliefs....that differ widely. What is common among evangelicals is that they take good sounding verses to justify themselves with.

God is not in it. Most have left God completely out of the equation.
 

ElieG12

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I think you are right. The religion of men has failed. But the kingdom of God is still there...to be entered into by faith. Not religious beliefs...but real faith. Faith that God accepts (not men)

Modern Christianity is supported by religious beliefs....that differ widely. What is common among evangelicals is that they take good sounding verses to justify themselves with.

God is not in it. Most have left God completely out of the equation.
That is your personal understanding and opinion, but it is not biblical.

If you consider the kingdom of Christ as an internal state of mind that only applies to the individual, with your doctrine about what the kingdom is, you deny that the kingdom of Christ will bring benefits to the entire planet, and that all of humanity will enjoy very different conditions than the current ones, on the Earth already cleansed.

So you have dogmas too (about what God's Kingdom is) ... and they happen to be unbiblical.
 

Behold

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Modern Christianity

Modern Christianity, some of it... tends to remake God into their image.

Real Christianity began with the Blood, Death, and Resurrection of Jesus, and is entered into by "Faith that is counted by God as (Christ's Righteousness" and is completed subsequent to the death of the believer, or at their Rapture, as being "conformed into the Image of Christ", as that is "Pre-destined" in God's Foreknowledge to happen to every born again CHRISTian. (before they are even born on earth).
 

ElieG12

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Real Christianity is only in the real organization that Jesus leads.

Matt. 24:45 “Who really is the faithful and discreet slave whom his master appointed over his domestics, to give them their food at the proper time?

All the pretexts and justifications of modern false "Christianity" are excuses for not accepting that Jehovah's people are the only place where Christ is truly followed and his Father is worshiped.

I am sorry to be so blunt about this, but it is evident that in Christendom there is nothing comparable to the organization I belong to... and in view of the bad propaganda that Christ's own enemy has disseminated, seekers of truth feel abandoned and lose their own criterion on the matter.

John 6:68 Simon Peter answered him: “Lord, whom shall we go away to? You have sayings of everlasting life; 69 and we have believed and come to know that you are the Holy One of God.”
 

Episkopos

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That is your personal understanding and opinion, but it is not biblical.

If you consider the kingdom of Christ as an internal state of mind that only applies to the individual, with your doctrine about what the kingdom is, you deny that the kingdom of Christ will bring benefits to the entire planet, and that all of humanity will enjoy very different conditions than the current ones, on the Earth already cleansed.

So you have dogmas too (about what God's Kingdom is) ... and they happen to be unbiblical.
A state of mind? You are in no position to judge what is biblical. Have you read the bible?

The future kingdom is not a spiritual realm...as it is now. The kingdom realm is coming to earth in the next age.

The transition period is the Millenium...where people get to rebel against God's order once again.

In the meantime have you sought for the kingdom first? Those who have faith (not just religious beliefs) God translates to be where He is.
 

Episkopos

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Real Christianity is only in the real organization that Jesus leads.

Matt. 24:45 “Who really is the faithful and discreet slave whom his master appointed over his domestics, to give them their food at the proper time?

All the pretexts and justifications of modern false "Christianity" are excuses for not accepting that Jehovah's people are the only place where Christ is truly followed and his Father is worshiped.

I am sorry to be so blunt about this, but it is evident that in Christendom there is nothing comparable to the organization I belong to... and in view of the bad propaganda that Christ's own enemy has disseminated, seekers of truth feel abandoned and lose their own criterion on the matter.

John 6:68 Simon Peter answered him: “Lord, whom shall we go away to? You have sayings of everlasting life; 69 and we have believed and come to know that you are the Holy One of God.”
there you go...some sect pretending to be right. Judaism has been around a lot longer...and it seems also to be functioning well.

But is God in it?
 

Episkopos

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Modern Christianity, some of it... tends to remake God into their image.

Real Christianity began with the Blood, Death, and Resurrection of Jesus, and is entered into by "Faith that is counted by God as (Christ's Righteousness" and is completed subsequent to the death of the believer, or at their Rapture, as being "conformed into the Image of Christ", as that is "Pre-destined" in God's Foreknowledge to happen to every born again CHRISTian. (before they are even born on earth).
Calvinism 101
 

ElieG12

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there you go...some sect pretending to be right. Judaism has been around a lot longer...and it seems also to be functioning well.

But is God in it?
There you are ... describing yourself all the time. :stageright:
 

Cyd

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How did they get born again before Bibles were available?
The King James Bible came out in 1611 AD,

/
To me this truth has been from the beginning, it was not explained till Messiah:
Mt 22
37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38 This is the first and great commandment.
39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

Being born again then is being birthed realizing that Almighty God is our parent Father not our bio parents.. thus born again with truth, born of spirit. In other words we have denied our true creator parent Almighty God.

Man did not start calling on God till the birth of Enos...but Adam lived over nine hundred years.
Gen 4:26
And to Seth, to him also there was born a son; and he called his name Enos: then began men to call upon the name of the Lord.

God says He changes not so to be able to be born again has been from the beginning for all of us. my opinion anyway.
 

Jn1.Chris

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Increasingly, the phrase "pretend Christianity" has been in my mind. Google the phrase and you'll find it’s in a lot of peoples' minds. I'm frankly beginning to wonder if about 95% of what passes for belief is really just pretend Christianity. I'm honestly beginning to wonder if there is any reality to all this at all.

All the hoopla that surrounds lots of peoples' Christianity – church activities, Bible studies, happy talk of God and Jesus, yada yada – I'm beginning to wonder if it disguises the fact most folks have no real belief at all and know they're just pretending. It brings to mind the Emperor's New Clothes: We won't admit, even to ourselves, that we're mostly just pretending and everything will be fine. As long as we all pretend together, everything will be fine.

The downfall of Ravi Zacharias a few years ago was a turning point for me. As you may or may not know, Ravi was one of the greatest Christian apologists of modern times. He was called things like "the most godly man in the world" and "a worthy successor to Billy Graham." He had a worldwide ministry. He wrote books and endorsed others – a Ravi endorsement was worth its weight in gold. He was a frequent guest on other apologists' radio programs and podcasts and was introduced in reverential tones and treated as an especially honored guest.

But Ravi was also a complete fraud. His academic credentials were greatly exaggerated. He had an extensive secret life involving sexual misconduct and abuse, replete with threats, payoffs and all the rest. It surfaced just before he died and was fully documented after his death. I corresponded with the attorney who first exposed the tip of the iceberg and watched agog as it all unfolded. Ravi had fooled his family, his closest associates in his ministry, all those who treated him as "the most godly man in the world" and, of course, his legions of devoted followers. Nonbelievers now had one more reason to laugh and say, "There ya go. Just another fraud. It’s all phony."

Ravi's ministry changed its name and pretty much collapsed. His books were pulled, his ministry credentials revoked. Christian authors removed his endorsements from their books. Those who had treated him with reverence now pretended they'd never heard of him. His devoted followers were crushed. It was about as huge and startling a fall as any Christian leader has ever suffered.

The typical Christian response was and is that Ravi's fall is just another reminder that we're all fallible and imperfect humans, subject to temptation and sin, yada yada. Well, yes, it is certainly that. After an appropriate period of hand-wringing, the Ravi scandal was tucked away in the little box wihere such scandals are kept while "Christianity, Inc." got on with its business.

When I tried to raise larger concerns, on forums and elsewhere, the response was always, "No, this just shows we're all subject to temptation and sin, yada yada. Nothing else to see here, move along please."

The larger concern I attempted to raise was, "Where was the Holy Spirit in all this?" Ravi was surrounded by believers, seemingly none of whom was blessed with even an ounce of discernment. His wife and daughter were clueless. His ministry staff was clueless. All the Christian leaders who associated with him, sought his endorsements and treated him with reverence were clueless.

The Holy Spirit was seemingly so weak and ineffectual that Ravi's family was devastated, his ministry was destroyed, all the good he had done was undone, his devoted followers were crushed, and nonbelievers were handed yet more ammunition on a golden platter. We prattle about how God did this and that and the Holy Spirit did this and that in our lives, but the Holy Spirit seems to have been completely missing in action when it came to Ravi. Someone couldn't have been blessed with enough discernment to step in before this caused all the damage it did???

I raised this directly with a couple of prominent apologists who had been among Ravi's most worshipful supporters. Does it trouble you that you were completely duped, that you were allowed to mislead others, that you lacked even a modicum of discernment? Forget Ravi and his foibles - what does this say about the Holy Spirit in your own life? What does it say about the Holy Spirit in general? Where's the beef?

I received no response.

It was and is enough to make me wonder, "Is there any reality to this?" Are we perhaps pretending to believe things that simply Aren't True? Is it possible that if there is any reality to Christianity, this reality is far from what we pretend it is? Is all the hoopla perhaps why "Christianity" seems so far from anything Jesus could have been talking about or possibly had in mind?

I don't have the answers, but I do find myself increasingly moving in the direction of a less dogmatic theism in which I more genuinely believe and away from what this brand of Christianity requires me to pretend to believe. Your mileage may vary.

You say 2 things. 1 is there any reality to this, are we pretending to believe and 2. You are moving away from dogmatic theism and this brand of Christianity(whatever that means). As far as I can tell Ravi preached the gospel so if that is dogmatic theism I wonder where you are going.

I'll answer point #1 like this: if God is not real (see the Bible) then I should be classified as utterly insane because I have seen Him move in miraculous ways.

I have no answer for the lack of discernment... I didn't follow Ravi but the Holy Spirit certainly wasn't prompting me.

What I do know is that Romans 8:28 is true and that His ways are not our ways. We see through a glass dimly.
 
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