Mr E said:
Lose one Big Boy Johnson.... get one Bill Judson.
Now you don't! I think he's moved on, or been moved off.
Lose one Big Boy Johnson.... get one Bill Judson.
Now you don't! I think he's moved on, or been moved off.
I'm starting to move away from "pretend Christianity"
- Thread starter O'Darby
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The more I consider this question of 'pretend Christianity,' posed by @O'Darby -- the less I like and accept the term-- 'pretend Christianity.'
In my head and in my experience of "church" and what is loosely called "faith" or the Christian "experience," I tend to think that it's mostly "fake." Even among the most genuine "believers" -I think that many of the very things that they truly do 'believe in' -- are fake. So then, as I mentioned already- there's no need to qualify between Christianity and 'pretend' Christianity as they are one and the same. The distinction is between what we've all come to know as 'modern Christianity' and "true Christianity" -- or I suppose, between what has evolved to be our present practice and belief systems- or modern orthodoxy and first century Christianity-- practiced by the disciples and eyewitness followers of Jesus.
I realize that my understanding aligns best with what many would call gnostic ideas. I think that the book of John in particular, but even the writings of Paul and the rest of the New Testament better reflect these principles than does the orthodox (evolved) understandings. This personal realization came as a bit of a shock to my system, as like most-- I was "taught" that gnostic beliefs were bad-- by simple declaration of Christian leaders-- many of whom, like this Ravi person-- were and are complete frauds. I think that in many ways, though not all ways- the gnostics got things right.
In my head and in my experience of "church" and what is loosely called "faith" or the Christian "experience," I tend to think that it's mostly "fake." Even among the most genuine "believers" -I think that many of the very things that they truly do 'believe in' -- are fake. So then, as I mentioned already- there's no need to qualify between Christianity and 'pretend' Christianity as they are one and the same. The distinction is between what we've all come to know as 'modern Christianity' and "true Christianity" -- or I suppose, between what has evolved to be our present practice and belief systems- or modern orthodoxy and first century Christianity-- practiced by the disciples and eyewitness followers of Jesus.
I realize that my understanding aligns best with what many would call gnostic ideas. I think that the book of John in particular, but even the writings of Paul and the rest of the New Testament better reflect these principles than does the orthodox (evolved) understandings. This personal realization came as a bit of a shock to my system, as like most-- I was "taught" that gnostic beliefs were bad-- by simple declaration of Christian leaders-- many of whom, like this Ravi person-- were and are complete frauds. I think that in many ways, though not all ways- the gnostics got things right.
I don't disagree, but by "pretend Christianity" I was referring mostly to all the trappings of "Christianity" that people seem to feel define the religion but that seem to me to blur and even take them farther away from whatever Truth the religion actually offers and whatever Jesus actually had in mind. As to whether the religion itself is fake in the way you're suggesting, this seems to me a slightly different focus. The people are pretending, but is the object of that pretense actually fake?
What I said about Ravi is close to what you seem to be getting at. WHERE WAS THE HOLY SPIRIT in all this - in Ravi's life, the lives of his family members who seemingly lacked all discernment, his close associates in his ministry who seemingly lacked all discernment, the multitudes of other Christian leaders who worshipped at his feet and seemingly lacked all dicernment, his legions of followers who seemingly lacked all discernment? Where was the Holy Spirit beef? We thank God for helping us find lost car keys, but we aren't troubled when the Holy Spirit seems completely missing in action in circumstances such as these? It seemingly should make us confront and question the reality of the whole thing (or at least our understanding of the whole thing), but it never does.
Lambano
Well-Known Member
Maybe we've been sold a bill of goods and the cessationists were right.
There.
I said it.
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The idea of a "pretend Christianity" applied to all religious groups is a biased generalization.
For example, it does not apply to Jehovah's Witnesses.
For example, it does not apply to Jehovah's Witnesses.
BlessedPeace
Well-Known Member
BlessedPeace
Well-Known Member
BlessedPeace
Well-Known Member
I've visited enough forums to see that many self proclaimed Christians defend a system they prefer meets their ends.
The only thing that's related to the teachings of Christ is his name. And that which they nominally attach to their doctrine.
WHERE WAS THE HOLY SPIRIT IN RAVI'S LIFE?
This important question gains sharper focus with the story of Nick, the greatest saint I ever knew. Nick was a bachelor and a chemist. I recall the day our pastor introduced him as a new member. He was the most passionate seeker of God's face and will I've ever known. After our services people were invited to our prayer room and for several years Nick was always there lost in praise, agonizing for more of God in his life. Our boys Sunday school class consisted of hellions. Nick was asked to teach it one Sunday. I (age 13) arrived at church early because Dad had choir practice. To kill time I wandered around the church and chanced to see Nick on his knees in the Sunday school room, tears streaming down his cheeks as he pleaded with God to use an unworthy vessel like him. I was in awe at his humility and passionate devotion and tiptoed away so as not to be noticed. When new toilets were needed for our youth camp, Nick volunteered for this thankless task.
Eventually I graduated from college in Winnipeg and attended Princeton Seminary. During Christmas vacation I returned home and received a call from a tormer Sunday school teacher of mine. He told me Nick, a chemist, had gotten mercury poisoning, which greatly agitates the nervous system with acute anxiety and depression. Incredibly, no one from the church bothered to visit him during his ordeal. He had become a sullen, bitter, disillusioned believer. My ex-teacher now said Nick was probably demon-possessed. I was summoned to help Nick. Shockingly, I have no memory of what we said to each other. Nick was clearly uncomfortable in my presence because he knew how much I respected him as a role model. Later, they said Nick committed suicide by driving the wrong way onto a freeway onramp!
When I returned home the next summer, I was shown Nick's desk and invited to take any souvenirs I wanted. The drawer was full of small pieces of paper with short expressions of longing for Nick's eyes only that said, e. g. "How I long for the flame of my heart to burn ever brighter in devotion to you, my precious Lord." I must confess that I often feel very angry at God for letting this happen to this dear saint. Where indeed was the Holy Spirit in Nick's hour of greatest need? And if this can happen to a saint like Nick, where is there hope for me?
In my next post I will share some reflections on lessons learned from such tragedies.
This important question gains sharper focus with the story of Nick, the greatest saint I ever knew. Nick was a bachelor and a chemist. I recall the day our pastor introduced him as a new member. He was the most passionate seeker of God's face and will I've ever known. After our services people were invited to our prayer room and for several years Nick was always there lost in praise, agonizing for more of God in his life. Our boys Sunday school class consisted of hellions. Nick was asked to teach it one Sunday. I (age 13) arrived at church early because Dad had choir practice. To kill time I wandered around the church and chanced to see Nick on his knees in the Sunday school room, tears streaming down his cheeks as he pleaded with God to use an unworthy vessel like him. I was in awe at his humility and passionate devotion and tiptoed away so as not to be noticed. When new toilets were needed for our youth camp, Nick volunteered for this thankless task.
Eventually I graduated from college in Winnipeg and attended Princeton Seminary. During Christmas vacation I returned home and received a call from a tormer Sunday school teacher of mine. He told me Nick, a chemist, had gotten mercury poisoning, which greatly agitates the nervous system with acute anxiety and depression. Incredibly, no one from the church bothered to visit him during his ordeal. He had become a sullen, bitter, disillusioned believer. My ex-teacher now said Nick was probably demon-possessed. I was summoned to help Nick. Shockingly, I have no memory of what we said to each other. Nick was clearly uncomfortable in my presence because he knew how much I respected him as a role model. Later, they said Nick committed suicide by driving the wrong way onto a freeway onramp!
When I returned home the next summer, I was shown Nick's desk and invited to take any souvenirs I wanted. The drawer was full of small pieces of paper with short expressions of longing for Nick's eyes only that said, e. g. "How I long for the flame of my heart to burn ever brighter in devotion to you, my precious Lord." I must confess that I often feel very angry at God for letting this happen to this dear saint. Where indeed was the Holy Spirit in Nick's hour of greatest need? And if this can happen to a saint like Nick, where is there hope for me?
In my next post I will share some reflections on lessons learned from such tragedies.
The Holy Spirit can be "grieved" and the flame of the Spirit can be "extinguished" (Eph. 4:40; 1 Thess. 5:19).
And the line between honest doubt and sinful irritation and disillusionment with God can be elusive. Consider Jesus' question about counterfeit spirituality: "Are grapes gathered from thorns, or figs from thistles (Matthew 7:26)?" Jesus probably had in mind "the buckthorn which had little black berries that closely resembled little grapes," and "a certain thistle, which had a flower, which at least at a distance, might well be taken for a fig (quoting William Barclay's Commentary)." The saying is thus reminiscent of a saying of Jesus from oral tradition often quoted by early Church Fathers: "Jesus said: Be wise money-changers; throw away the bad (coins); keep the good (coins)." The Jewish money-changer's job included not only foreign exchange of currency, but an examination of coins to detect counterfeits. A discerning eye might detect a slight change in color, line thickness, or shape of imagery that gives away the counterfeit. Jesus' point would then be the difficulty of discerning the difference between true and false spirituality, a difficulty that reinforces His prior point about the danger of premature self-assessment or judgment of others.
Matthew adds this teaching in his discussion of these sayings:
"Not everyone who says to me, "Lord, Lord" will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven. On that day many
will say to me, "Lord, Lord, did we not prophecy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many deeds of power in your name?" Then I will declare to them, "I never knew you; go away from me... (Matthew 7:21-23)!"
Jesus' point is that people can have spiritual gifts apparently indicative of saintliness without having the essential intimate personal relationship with Jesus. Since we all occasionally display character flaws and have complex motivation for our service, it is dangerous to presume who does and does not have a mystical bond with Jesus.
And the line between honest doubt and sinful irritation and disillusionment with God can be elusive. Consider Jesus' question about counterfeit spirituality: "Are grapes gathered from thorns, or figs from thistles (Matthew 7:26)?" Jesus probably had in mind "the buckthorn which had little black berries that closely resembled little grapes," and "a certain thistle, which had a flower, which at least at a distance, might well be taken for a fig (quoting William Barclay's Commentary)." The saying is thus reminiscent of a saying of Jesus from oral tradition often quoted by early Church Fathers: "Jesus said: Be wise money-changers; throw away the bad (coins); keep the good (coins)." The Jewish money-changer's job included not only foreign exchange of currency, but an examination of coins to detect counterfeits. A discerning eye might detect a slight change in color, line thickness, or shape of imagery that gives away the counterfeit. Jesus' point would then be the difficulty of discerning the difference between true and false spirituality, a difficulty that reinforces His prior point about the danger of premature self-assessment or judgment of others.
Matthew adds this teaching in his discussion of these sayings:
"Not everyone who says to me, "Lord, Lord" will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven. On that day many
will say to me, "Lord, Lord, did we not prophecy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many deeds of power in your name?" Then I will declare to them, "I never knew you; go away from me... (Matthew 7:21-23)!"
Jesus' point is that people can have spiritual gifts apparently indicative of saintliness without having the essential intimate personal relationship with Jesus. Since we all occasionally display character flaws and have complex motivation for our service, it is dangerous to presume who does and does not have a mystical bond with Jesus.
quietthinker
Well-Known Member
I'm starting to move away from "pretend Christianity"
I'll ask it again, why did you go to 'pretend Christianity' in the first place?
You blame God for Nick's suicide? I have no idea what happened between God and Nick but blaming God...as if He didn't know Nick seems presumptuous
Rubbish! All I said expressed was a natural anger at God for not helping Nick when the church abandoned him in his hour of greatest need.
I didn't blame God, but I was forced to battle doubts and a loss of confidence in Paul's promise:
"My God will fully satisfy your every need according to His riches in glory in Christ Jesus (Philippians 4:19)."
Nick was the most sold-out and devout Christian I have ever known in my long Christian life and I regularly had the privilege of observing his passionate quest for more of God up close and personal.
And that is one of the major rubs, that many do not know what the gospel actually consists of in order to believe in it with constant faith thereafter. It is a powerful spiritual energizing message impacting the heart that knows the real God of Yahshua.
And so then the major foundational rub for me is this one, who is truly God? If this cannot be known with complete certainty, trust and faith, then becoming a genuine believer is impossible. Christ was and is a one single person Father God believer. I agree and believe with him. Today however, most professing Christians disregard the words of Christ and his disciplines out-right and favor human constructs of God.
They believe in not a 'who' is God, but a 'what' of a common substance or essence, of a double (god) or triple (god) persons God.
Which one does the Spirit of the Father God agree with? Surely his Son's words as they are of God in the first place. So is there a place at the spiritual table or altar for the religionist Christian of this world. Definitely not. So, as it stands today, most professing Christians are not really being saved today; they are fooling themselves and are the religious pretenders.
Ooff…
This is why I need to get back to teaching… you’re right… I’ve read the Bible enough to have substance in sustaining faith in what I’ve come to know.
The thing is me flesh doesn’t like reading the Bible, let alone going to plow through myself… but my spirit is willing…
You’re right most people don’t know because they have not sought in faith from God in order to received understanding.
Coming here is just a mix mash of people who believe but in different facets, but that there is anything wrong with that…
But truth sets a person free. To go in, and move forward unknowingly like Abraham; perhaps myself too sometimes.
Read posts #143 and 163 and perhaps you'll stop asking.
People keep trying to keep the focus on individual lives because it avoids the larger issues. As post #163 makes clear, I'm talking about something much more fundamental than the fall of Ravi.
quietthinker
Well-Known Member
Forgive me if I'm missing what you're saying. What is 'natural anger' towards God?
When life's circumstances suddenly and involuntarily make you temporarily lose confidence in God's promises:
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