In regard to what Jesus said to Peter, it appears that the Apostle John's presumption is in error.

[The Third One]

Hello, again, @L3astAmOngManyB13ss3d,

Well, that’s one way to walk through Life. With a block of cheese around your head.

Hey, guys and gals, I warned you. We can be kind to each other in here. Or... we can turn this into a “You are the devil!” contest.

In your first post you write, “We’re off to a rocky start” — over the idea that I would dare to question a single sentence, written from a most-of-it-burned-and-deleted, humanly-pieced-together, edited, overdubbed book that our Religion decrees (for its own money-grubbing and power-hungry reasons) that we are (to goosestep behind them) and what they have pieced together... at face value... as the Holy Word of God.

As if our Father in Heaven had come down from Heaven... to CNN studios (no, it would have probably been FOX-News)... and, in six days, had Hand-Written the entire thing... from Genesis to Revelation… while the cameras rolled continuously.

Okay, then, in your next post: your done with this room!

Then, in your next post, you write, “I like your personality and approach, easy, laid back.”

So, now, I presume, we are back to accusations?

What is driving you? After ALL this time of roaming the earth, have they settled into you to roost — of course, I mean the eight demons that Jesus hurled out of Mary Magdalene? Is it a Bi-Polar disorder? Did you forget to take your meds today or do you need an exorcism?

Am I to really to presume.. that ALL of that soup was directed at me?

You should test the Spirits (if you only knew how to do so).

If you truly are directing that pea-soup — that projectile vomit coming out of your mouth — at me, then you need to get on the playing field, beloved sister, and address the content. Do you remember the very first thing you wrote to me?

“☆First never assume a position you can not defend, you will be knocked flat.”

Our Father in Heaven, the Holy Spirit, Jesus, Jesus’ First Apostle (and right-hand man), the remaining eleven Apostles, Paul of Tarsus, David, Job and ALL of the Old Testament prophets (major and minor) are in PERFECT agreement that I am doing an outstanding job defending our position. You see, ALL of us are on Team Light. What Team are you on? Or perhaps I should ask, what drugs are you on?

I’m still standing, waiting for one of your weekend warriors to “knock me flat.”

I’ve reduced a lot of Word to print at this point. The record is solid and captured in stone. Go back and read every Word of every post I have written.

Exactly what lie are you accusing me of?

If you will remember, someone early on in here (right next to your initial post) asked me for my “credentials.” Remember that? I honestly told you... my one (and only) “credential.”

Because of my one credential, I knew something didn’t taste exactly right the first day I willingly, knowingly joined in (on my own accord without mom and dad dragging me) and took a big, healthy bite of Christianity. Although I have stuck it out for four decades now as a non-tithing, non-stationary, non-club-member (who is determined to learn), I have not spent good Time getting an AB nor a DD degree, a ThB, nor a ThM nor an AM degree in philosophy. Nor have I spent even more Time listening to Christian professors professing (quack, quack, quack) so I could get a ThD in Systematic Theology.

I have no... “diploma in seminary nor bible college!”

What I have done for the last forty years is listen to my Heavenly Father tell me exactly how to take this ridiculously large, manmade enchilada apart, piece by piece.

When I finally got it ALL tore down to its independent ingredients spread out on a bed sheet, like a mechanic dismantling an old LTD (except in my case it took forty years and the bed sheet was the size of ten football fields) the most shocking realization for me was not ALL the totally unnecessary stuff that had obviously been thrown in. No. What really turned my head sideways was the important stuff that has obviously been left out.

If you have been eating it for so long that you cannot taste what has been added, it would be difficult for you to even imagine what is missing. The more and more “mature” a Mature-Christian gets as he eats his way deeper and deeper into Christianity, the less apt he is to taste anything wrong with it at ALL. He has been eating it for so long, his nose already smells that way.

The wisdom and teaching of our “Faith” — supposedly based upon the words of Jesus — should stand the test of time and tutelage with no contradiction whatsoever. However, the “belief” system we have been taught is anything but entirely seamless, faultless and PERFECT.

One may certainly ask, what in this world is entirely seamless, faultless and PERFECT?

 

[ScottA]

@The Learner,

The Romans did not put diapers on anyone condemned to a cross. No one had camera-equipped cell phones in the first century to capture a picture (for us) of the Grim-Reality of Roman crucifixion. But, please... do not be naïve enough to trust the paintings that, yes, ALL of us have seen — paintings, which are nothing more than the (centuries-later) artistic work of prudes, who literally dressed-up the Truth.

Hanging naked in public was part of the punishment of Roman crucifixion (and an additional deterrent... for onlookers).

@facetoface asks yet another beautiful question. Beautiful, because his question is so wonderfully honest. “Is this thread making sense to you?” he admits that he is “struggling to understand its point.” Again, may I commend facetoface. And, thank him for his honesty. I agree wholeheartedly with his suggestion: “Maybe someone can (or should) sum it up (for us) in a paragraph or two.”

@ScottA is the most brilliant participant (thus far). Not to take anything AWAY from the rest of you participants and onlookers. The thing is, one must first be awake — in order for one to start making sense of ALL this. Actually, one needs to be awake... to start making sense.

As for face2face’s request (the submitting of “two paragraphs”)? We have only one contestant.

ScottA writes, “I would summarize it in this way:

1) “Forum member ‘The Third One’ has determined that Jesus left things well in hand to be soon on track with what He came preaching, but then Paul came in and bumped Peter out of lead position of building the church and introduced Pharisaic foundations deflecting the church into a 2,000 year rabbit hole.

2)“Which I would complement him on — not for his content and assumption — but for the fact that He is not asleep. Jesus, Peter, and Paul all explained it better...and the church did exactly what was foretold of them, which began with the spirit of antiChrist already at work way back then.”

Dear people, we ALL need to wake up. ScottA is awake (more so than many); yet, still... only partially awake. In my humble, yet considered opinion, about 10% awake.

ScottA is well informed to recognize that I am not asleep. Neither is the Living God. Thus the distinction, “Living.”

I don’t know if anyone else in here recognized it. Our Father in Heaven recently winked at ALL of us in here. By way of ScottA’s typo. Notice (if you would), ScottA capitalized “He” in reference to me, The Third One: ie: “…the fact that He is not asleep.” Truthfully, the typo is Reality, only in the sense that these are not my Words that I have been sharing with you. Well, granted, they have become my words; but, only after me being pummeled by Him (GOD)... into awakeness (if I can take the liberty to coin a word). Not to be confused with “wokeness” (lol).

Whether it was a typo (or not) is something only ScottA can confirm — to himself and/or to the rest of us, if he’d like. Either way, (to us and especially to himself) ScottA is being as honest as face2face. We ALL need to be honest with each other. Honest as Nathaniel; for, yes, Jesus declared the Apostle Nathaniel to be the most honest man Jesus knows. If it was not a typo, and ScottA meant to add the capitalization there, well then, I would say that my assessment of ScottA’s “awake-Stock” has almost doubled. Making him more like 18% awake. (lol)

I have been talking to The Living God of Light about these things for a good while, now. Much of what us Christians have been dogmatized to “believe” went down in flames in His many conversations with me — with me playing “the Christian solider,” fighting much the same fight that some of you in this very room have been fighting. But, I sure did learn a few things. Not that I was particularly “chosen” by God as something “special.” We have ALL been chosen. We are ALL special. I just happened to be available. Purely one in ten billion. The right place. The right timing. No better no worse than anyone else.

I have not been in a Christian chat-room for quite some time. Why I came to this one is of no human design. I closed my eyes and picked one. It was simply time to enter one again. So, here I am... with you wonderful people (I mean that sincerely), persuaded, as I am, by the Living God of Light to express my humble, yet considered opinion about what “the cross” means to me.

Actually, there is only one special me-thing about it.

I can honestly take the oath. Hooked up to a lie detector. Subpoenaed into a court of law (or before Congress). Hand on the King James. The Truth, the whole Trut.......

Okay, you are going on and on, but have not (unless I skipped over it because you were rambling) addressed or acknowledge Jesus' stated reason for these past 2,000 years, which was, "And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock and one shepherd." John 10:16

Instead, you have blamed Paul for a rabbit hole of apostacy he in fact warned of...just as Peter did, after Jesus himself had first eluded to it all.

Alternatively, I submit that what followed Jesus' farewell talk with Peter about being "girded up", is what Jesus had already presented him with in identifying Him as the Christ--which was that fork in the path, that same life and death choice set before Adam and Eve, and then again before Israel by Moses--that He would gather His assembly (church) by the spirit of the "Father" rather than by "flesh and blood." That in fulfillment would mean two things:

1. The so called church would indeed be built upon flesh and blood (the choice of death), by those who took up Peter as their father girding him up to head up their worldly endeavors, putting him between Christ and men. Who in fact carried the water of the gospel to these many generations, even doing many great works--that what men had meant for evil, God has meant for good during these times of the gentiles; that they should be fulfilled with the same mix of good and evil as has always been since the beginning; and that the prophecies by Jesus, Peter, and Paul, of these end times regarding a "falling away" should also be fulfilled.
2. That the actual gathering of that Holy assembly has rather taken place just as Jesus said it would as coming [again] by knocking at the door to whosoever would open (the choice of life), not in one mass future event as the church fathers began to teach, fulfilling Jesus's prophecy of those who would come to say, "My master is delaying his coming", but rather as Paul elaborated, saying, "but each one in his own order", that is, "when not expected", on a "day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, but the Father only."

All of which makes these times of the gentiles, not a rabbit hole of diversion, but entirely intentional by God, occurring as a flood ("as the days of Noah") of the Holy Spirit poured out upon all flesh--both good and evil, a gathering of both "the wheat and the tares" from the four corners of the earth until the end.

 

[The Third One]

(Continued from post #81) answer to @L3astAmOngManyB13ss3d:

The Truth.

Answer me honestly, “simple woman who believes the Word,” is what is coming of your mouth, the Truth?

Hardly. What is coming out of your mouth is bile!

Have you even read what is actually coming out of my mouth?

If so, then even worse is your position. For, what is coming out of my mouth is a call for us to finally, once and for ALL, truly accept what’s been done for us on the cross, 100%, with ifs, ands or buts — with not one thing getting in the way of that.

Are you really suggesting that that Gospel is not the inspired Word of the Holy Ghost?

Do you actually “believe” that what I am saying has been inspired by the devil?

Okay, then. Let’s do a house-divided-against-itself test. Does the devil encourage you to TRULY ACCEPT what’s been done for you on the cross?

No. But what the devil does encourage you to do is “believe” that our God is dead.

Do you really think the Holy Spirit’s tongue has been cut out?

Do you have any idea why you “believe” that a two inch book, is ALL the Living God has, does or ever will have to say to us?

Oh, there is no question, you do “believe” our God is dead (for He stopped talking to people, 2000 years ago).

The tragedy is that you do not even know why you “believe” such an idiotic lie. I am compelled to clue you in. Because... you have been Church-Taught to “believe” this idiotic lie — along with ALL the other lies that “The Church” has crammed down your throat. I could list them alphabetically. Or would you prefer hearing them numerically?

On the other hand, every Word that I have told you is backed-up by the Holy Spirit. You will find no lie in my numerous and quite lengthy posts.

Why do you “believe” that God has nothing left to say to us?

Again, I will be happy to clue you in.

Because... some sanctimonious council of men from your “Church” said , “Okay, that’s ALL GOD has to say to us!” And so... we are done listening! And, if anyone does listen, from here on out, he’s a heretic. What was their dogma you quoted me? “He’s either an infidel or a liar!”

How convenient for them.

And, boy, isn’t THAT lucrative? What a way to close the financial sale when the conversation inevitably comes around to that crucial time at your Pentecostal worship services for “the Church” to get into your purse and pocketbook. “You need to give to God!”

Excuse me? Did I hear you correctly?

“Yeah-a, praise Jesus-a! Look in your checkbook and SEE where your heart is. How much is going to God? Sinner! You need to partner-up with God!”

“Partner-up” with God. That is a very popular sales-close these days.

Partner-up.

Whosoever came up with that one should be getting at least a couple cents on every dollar taken in. Because, that is pure Madison-Avenue genius.

You don’t need to be a-wastin’ your Sundays watchin’ that devil’s ballgame! Or out there knockin’ that ball around on that devil’s golf course. Brother! You don’t NEED to ride that golf cart! What you NEED for a “ride” is to come up in here and ride the Glory of the Lord! (“The Mind-Twister”) Sundays — brothers and sisters — you need to be HERE to spend your time with GOD!

Like... a... yeah. The only place to find Him is either at “the Church alter” or hearing this sales-pitch in any other place made “holy” by the sales-pitch.

Fifteen hundred years of Holy Apostolic Catholic idiocy. And, then what? It gets worse. Our “modern-day” Pharisee-Extremist “reformers” actually turned the man-made-organized-Church into GOD. Something their great-grandfather, Paul, would have denounced not merely as “faith shipwrecked,” but faith blown out of the water.

Many Fundamental Evangelical pilots flat out proclaim this exact abomination as part of their “Faith” and flight plan. “The Church is the extension of God on Earth.”

Paul has no one but himself to blame for such an abominable outcome. And, he does regret it. And, he will answer for it — willing and honestly. He will gladly answer for every idle word he ever spoke against the Truth. And, ALL of what he did that stifled and limited the Kingdom of God. Paul will take it ALL back... and make it ALL right again. Why? Because Paul of Tarsus is on Team Light. He is a man of the Living God. (Not an antichrist.)

And, every one of you “men of the cloth” who mindlessly repeat such idle words, take it into your heads to step up on a milk crate (or clip a microphone to your face and and a transmitter to your behind) and speak about “God-a” and “the Kingdom of Heaven-a,” you had better make sure that what you say is the Truth, the whole Truth and not one thing more than the Truth. For, you, too, will answer for your idle words.

“ALL us Christians, together? Hey! We’re “the Body of Christ!”

The organized structure itself is GOD-Almighty and the corporate-congregation is “the Body” of Jesus. Not unlike the golden calf, we have created god on Earth.

In Heavenly-Reality? An abomination in the Sight of the Living God.

Take an honest look, “simple woman.” The Church has indoctrinated a third of the world’s population as dues-paying members into “The Holy Country Club.” Sounds like great numbers until you take a close look at the startling facts. After two-thousand years, the Truth should be PERFECTLY clear to every thinking person on the planet — as clear as one-plus-one equals two. Unfortunately, after two-thousand years, the only thing “the Church” has successfully taught the world at large is: The Church represents Jesus! Even worse: The Church IS Jesus. (We ARE the body of Christ!) And, according to “The Church,” speaking for Jesus (or... as Jesus) one-plus-one equals negative two.

No wonder, two-thirds of the world’s population wants nothing to do with this county club; or, worse, having been members (to their dismay) they will never have anything to do with it again!

“Believers” and “nonbelievers” alike have ALL been fundamentally brainwashed.

 

[The Third One]

Now, after two thousand years, Jesus’ “gathering” remains trampled under this fat, dogmatized, put-to-music, brainwashing Monopoly: Brothers and sisters, it is in the Bible! The authority of “The Church” comes to us straight out of the mouth of Jesus!

Worse, “believers” and “nonbelievers” alike perceive “Church” as the connection to Jesus. JESUS & CHURCH. It is difficult to express in words... how worse. For this perception is not even one that runs side by side, like PEAS & CARROTS. Much worse. PEAS & PEAS. “The Church” proclaims itself as the very Body of Jesus.

No Fundamental Christian (during start-up Reformation-Time) could get the Church/Body-of-Christ tune out of his head. And, as like-taught Christians, we still can’t. We continue to eat (some of us nibbling, some of us entirely consuming) this stuffed enchilada fed to us by our “trusted teachers.” Who were, in turn, fed-taught by their “trusted” teachers’ teachers’ “teachers.” ALL of us, with blinders and dogma-collars set firmly in place.

The blind have successfully guided the blind into a corporate ditch. Brainwashed, to such a degree of blindness, we cannot see many of Jesus’ correctly translated Words — even as we read them for ourselves. Instead, what we see is the dogma our Church-Washed brains have come to learn to associate with these Words!

Truly accepting what’s been done for us on the cross, 100%, with no ifs ands or buts, should be as easy as taking air into our lungs. Unfortunately, after two-thousand years, the Church has made it practically impossible for anyone to do so. Those “the Church” convincingly train, fall locked — ball and chain — into the same ditch as the teacher. Brainwashed, milked weekly for membership dues, close-minded and plagued by the very disease Jesus came here to cure — The Knowledge of Good & Evil. Nearly ALL the rest (those “the Church” are unable to convince to renew membership) are left with a greater impact toward God and Jesus. The Holy Spirit calls it, “The Greater-Crater.” They don’t want anything further to do with “God” or “Jesus.”

Here is the best Jesus has to say about being guided by religious teachers:

Matthew 15:14 (New Heart English Bible) “Leave them alone. They are the blind leading the blind. And, if the blind guide the blind, both will fall into a pit.”

Here is the worst:

Matthew 23:15 (Original Greek) “They travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when they have succeeded, they turn them into twice the sons of Hell they are themselves!”

Imagine Jesus coming face to face with the Christian Church. Not in the sky (as Christian folklore would have it) but very much down to earth. Face to face with the institution that encased blood-sacrifice bologna-skin around his RANSOM — for 2000 years. Let us bow our heads and ask the most revered Christian question. What would Jesus do?

Probably have a full-blown fit equal to the one he had the day he cleared the Jewish Temple brick and mortar of this perverted nonsense.

Well, then... we need to reform the Church.

Nice thinking. “Holier folks than us” have already tried reforming this abominable sow’s ear. But, alas, the best that Man can turn a “church” into is a silk purse. (Ka-Ching!)

There is no reforming the Church.

The Living God is... DONE... with the Church.

Time to face the music. Your golden cow is broke.

Try and “fix” it?

What’s the point? Like trying to fix a lackadaisical chimpanzee that never gets any of its chores done. Okay, Church, what do you have to say for yourself? Two-thousand years and, honestly, the world is no better off, sin-wise, than it was the day before John the Baptist voiced his proclamation.

In one ear and out the other, like with the distracted chimp. Worse. See? Your golden cow is deaf. As deaf as its parking lot.

Oh, well. Once you put your golden cow out of the way, perhaps you can finally, at long last, turn to what Jesus left for you. The Comforter.

I apologize to any and ALL Church-Enthusiasts. I am truly sorry for you having to face this Reality (and process it). Seriously. Me having to be the one to tell you ALL this makes me feel like the bad-guy parent, exposing the Santa Claus fib. Sorry. There is no putting Santa back together once you know the Truth. Kudo sorry to ALL you fans of the Reformation. Jim & Tammy Bakker, Joseph Kony, David Koresh, Jim Jones, the Mormons and the Jehovah Witnesses are ALL glaring examples of the Reformation. Not to take anything AWAY from the rest of Fundamental Evangelical Protestantism.

Go on. Get your head back in the sand. Get yourself a nice, fresh layer of sand (to work as a sanctimonious coating), you know, to insulate that block of cheese around your head.

The Word of God? You can’t recognize the Word of God. The sad thing is, you have been prevented from doing so.

Don’t listen to me. Why would you? ALL those men you “believe” in the Bible -- yes, True men of God -- no established Religion (brood-of-abomination) in their day listened to any of those men either. Jesus included. So... I am in good company.

I’ve built my house on what Jesus has to say.

Go on, sister. While its still there. Get back to your “Church.”

 

[The Third One]

@ScottA,

Have you ever read a book from start to finish? Or do you always just skim the cliff notes?

Did you actually read Genesis or peruse it? Like, Yeah, yeah, "In the beginning" and all that. But it just goes on and on. I may have missed something, but that Moses guy just keeps on rambling and rambling. I don't see him saying anything about "other sheep" that will "here my voice," and, oh well, that's what I'd like to talk about.

Ever seen Monty Python's "The Life of Brian?" Jesus is giving his talk on the mount, and the people way back in the crowd can hardly hear what he's saying. A lady in the very back asks her friend (in a dry British accent), "What's that he said? Blessed are the cheese makers? What makes them so bloody important?"

A scholarly man turns around to her and offers his knowledgeable advice. "Oh, you can't take that literally, mum. Of course he's talking about the makers of all dairy products."

That dude is you, ScottA.

I have come to the conclusion that I am wasting my valuable time in here.

 

[L.A.M.B.]

@The Third One ,

Wow, Really ?

I would have to evaluate you as
clinically mad. You also don't retain
nor comprehend what you've read.

1st I said, well off to a rocky start, NOT WE'RE OFF TO A ROCKY START !
I have read every post on your thread here more than once trying to see what you are talking about.

I have not attended church in almost 20 of my last years, trying to find ONLY what God has to say to mankind, through the leading of the Holy Spirit.

I know HIS UNCTION, HIS FRUIT, and HIS ILLUMINATION.....NOT SURE YOU CAN SAY THAT AND YET YOU FAULT HIM FOR ALL THIS HAGGIS YOURE CHOKING OUT !

You deny the Word by the Apostles and even the Apostles themselves. I agree the Catholic church is at fault but it isn't the only denomination that is at fault.

Atheism is more what you're spouting.

You don't trust God's word nor his disciples, so why are you on a christian site ?

I'm not sure you know the voice of God, nor the saviour of the cross and I'm certain the Holy Ghost does not speak such things as you've attributed to him telling or showing you.

At you age, you need a do-over.......... GO back to the cross and seek the perfect salvation. Then get the milk and the meat as you grow ( hopefully ) before you try to start telling anybody, believer or unbeliever what is God's word, his Spirit or those he has called to minister !

 

[theefaith]

Theefaith posts yet another good question: “Did Christ found the one true church?”

Since there was no such concept as “church” in Jesus’ day, he had to look into the future to see this thing you are talking about... you know... in order for him to take a good gander at the convoluted mess. Oh, he saw it. He referred to it as "thorns" in one parable and "tares" in another.

The spinning Church consists of over 43,000 separately organized Christian denominations. Anyone (even a messenger dispatched from the throne of Almighty God) sent to shout Truth into such a multi-divided tower of babble, would have better luck blowing smoke rings into an F-5 tornado.

Jesus would answer your question with a question of his own: “What is a ‘true’ church?”

There was a time one had to be a top tier Latin scholar merely to have the ability to accurately read the Gospels — Summa Cum Laude doctorate degree required, thank you. (For us common folk, that’s Latin for “With Highest Honor.”)

The earliest publically-printed edition of the Greek New Testament appeared in 1516 AD.

Let’s think about that for a moment. Fifteen-hundred exclusive years of “the Church” acquiring, policing and hording the Good News to itself. Fifteen-hundred exclusive years of “the Church” telling the world what the Good News is. Fifteen-hundred exclusive years of “the Church,” teaching the world what the Good News means.

Okay, in comes the Reformation. “The ‘true’ Church” becomes divided into "two 'true' Churches" of "The Faithful." With Gutenberg’s invention at hand, the power of mass-production is now the hands of “The Faithful” and “The Faithful” to promote Whatever-Suits-Us-Best for mass-consumption...

Including (but not limited to) the Church, itself, injecting into the Gospel... a starting place... for the Church, itself.

Yep. That is a fact.

You can tell your kids you heard it here first. On second thought, to preserve the family “belief” system, you may want to corkscrew your kids’ eyes out of their little sockets (to keep them from seeing this) and fill in their little ears with concrete. Or better yet, as L3astAmOngManyB13ss3d says, “Our engagement within this post stops right now!”

Harrumph! Harrumph! How DARE you attack our Faith!!? And now... our CHURCH!!!

The real question is, who can defend it? The Pharisees that Jesus pummeled suffered from the same malady. They were way too fearful to accept the Truth and completely unable to argue against it. Guess it’s much easier to leave the room. Happy trails.

Wait just a second, sir. We have ALL been strictly taught: JESUS started the Church.

Yep. That is exactly what we have ALL... been strictly taught. And, whom exactly was (and continues to be) our strict teacher? (Yikes!)

The Church.

Just ask any Church-Taught Christian. He or she will smile and gladly tell you, “Jesus started the Church! The Bible says so!”

Well, now, Brother and Sister Sunshine, that is actually quite impossible. In the first century, there was no such word as “Church” in any language. No such word. No such concept. No such idea. MAN had not... yet... invented “the Church.”

(As in capital “C”): “the Church.” Specifically, “The Christian ‘Church.’”

Nor in the first century had such a building nor manmade sub-sect been put together.

(As in little “c”): “a church.” For instance: “I suggest we meet at some ‘church.’”

“Which ‘church’? The Baptist ‘church’ or the Episcopal ‘church’?”

Any Christian apologist worth his weight in peaches will immediately direct our attention to Matthew 16:18, and purport, “Why sure it had! First century! Jesus said,”

Matthew 16:18 (KJV) “Upon this rock I will build my...”

His what?

The Koine Greek Word is ἐκκλησίαν (transliteration: ekklesia). The Word has one and only one meaning. “Gathering.”

To inject the limiting aspects of “Church” into Jesus’ proclamation (at Matthew 16:18) is an incorrect, purposefully diminishing and repulsively exclusionary translation.

The God’s-honest Truth? Turning “ekklesia” into “Church” is NOT a translation. It is an outright insertion. One could equally insert “exclusive country club” into Jesus’ statement. After ALL, an exclusive country club is a gathering.

Just as silly of a limitation... for the Savior of the world: “Upon this rock I will build my exclusive country club.”

Jesus had no such limitation (nor limitation of any kind) in mind.

No big deal. The Church came to OWN the Gospels. The Church-Pilots flying the airplane figured they could do with the Gospels as they pleased.

Open your eyes. Wake up. They HAD to figure out a way to connect their “authority” to Jesus.

So, they INSERTED the word “church” into Jesus’ mouth. No big deal.

Imagine had the NFL exclusive access to the Gospels and their translation for the first fifteen-hundred years AD. When “The Faithful” finally cranked out the King James Bible in 1611, I suppose it would be “no big deal” for the King’s Elizabethan English to tell us at Matthew 16:18, in raised red letters, no less (purportedly out of the mouth of Jesus)...

“Upon this rock I will build my National Football League.”

why did Christ found the church?

 

[The Third One]

@theefaith asks "why did Christ found the church?"

He didn't. Jesus's gathering is ALL of humanity, from Adam and onward.

 

[Marymog]

The Holy Spirit will confirm whether something is actually Inspired.

Hi 3rd one,

The Holy Spirit will confirm TO WHOM whether something is actually Inspired?

 

[ScottA]

@ScottA,

Have you ever read a book from start to finish? Or do you always just skim the cliff notes?

Did you actually read Genesis or peruse it? Like, Yeah, yeah, "In the beginning" and all that. But it just goes on and on. I may have missed something, but that Moses guy just keeps on rambling and rambling. I don't see him saying anything about "other sheep" that will "here my voice," and, oh well, that's what I'd like to talk about.

Ever seen Monty Python's "The Life of Brian?" Jesus is giving his talk on the mount, and the people way back in the crowd can hardly hear what he's saying. A lady in the very back asks her friend (in a dry British accent), "What's that he said? Blessed are the cheese makers? What makes them so bloody important?"

A scholarly man turns around to her and offers his knowledgeable advice. "Oh, you can't take that literally, mum. Of course he's talking about the makers of all dairy products."

That dude is you, ScottA.

I have come to the conclusion that I am wasting my valuable time in here.

No, but you are rather wasting our time by rambling, as did the scribes and Pharisees with their long prayers for pretense.

But, yes, I have read the word of God cover to cover more times than I can count. Yet it is not that God rambles on or those sent, but it is rather life that rambles on, as God "is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance."

But what good is it for us to quarrel, if we have the same interest?

 

[The Third One]

@Marymog asks "The Holy Spirit will confirm TO WHOM whether something is actually Inspired?"

To anyone who honestly asks. "Ask and you shall receive."

Of course, it helps to truly LISTEN. So one must get the wax out of one's ears; and, all preconceived notions out of one's head. That's a toughie, especially for the brutally dogmatized. It also helps to ask the right questions.

We are all taught by God. Instinctively, we all know the absolute God’s-honest Truth when we hear it. Not to imply that we want to hear it. Especially if it means re-examining our belief system.

 

[Marymog]

@Marymog asks "The Holy Spirit will confirm TO WHOM whether something is actually Inspired?"

To anyone who honestly asks. "Ask and you shall receive."

Of course, it helps to truly LISTEN. So one must get the wax out of one's ears; and, all preconceived notions out of one's head. That's a toughie, especially for the brutally dogmatized. It also helps to ask the right questions.

We are all taught by God. Instinctively, we all know the absolute God’s-honest Truth when we hear it. Not to imply that we want to hear it. Especially if it means re-examining our belief system.

Ok...Do you believe Joseph Smith, Martin Luther, Zwingili and John Calvin 'asked'?

 

[theefaith]

@theefaith asks "why did Christ found the church?"

He didn't. Jesus's gathering is ALL of humanity, from Adam and onward.

matt 16:18-19

18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

Jn 10:16

16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

 

[The Third One]

@Marymog asks: Ok...Do you believe Joseph Smith, Martin Luther, Zwingili and John Calvin 'asked'?

Do I "believe" they did? We could talk about that word a lot, too. "Belief." One can certainly presume they asked. What do you think? You tell me. Do you think they LISTENED?

 

[The Third One]

@L3astAmOngManyB13ss3d, wrote the best one-liner advice I have heard in here so far. It should be posted on the door of every church:

“GO back to the cross and seek the perfect salvation.”

“Salvation” is a very popular Church-word, so the Church-Taught should ALL understand exactly what she is talking about. (hmmm, yet maybe not).

The Holy Spirit would like to offer us some good help with “the words” in this wonderful one-liner; turning what our esteemed sister has said, into the Word of God.

The word “salvation” diminishes what Jesus actually calls it. Truly accepting what’s been done for us on the cross gives you way more than the religious words that you have been taught to use: “salvation,” “sanctification” and “holiness.” @ScottA remarks, “I have read the word of God cover to cover more times than I can count.” Many of you in here have done so. You’ve read it. But, have you ever had it read to you? I don’t mean... by mom, dad or a preacher. Have you ever had the Holy Spirit read it to you. And, most important, have you LISTENED. You have read what Jesus says. But, have you LISTENED. Had you, you would know that what’s been done for you on the cross gives you PERFECTION.

It truly does, instantly — if you simply and truly accept it that it does.

As for “seek”, it is impossible to “seek” being PERFECT. According to Jesus, you simply are PERFECT the instant you truly accept what’s been done for you on the cross. Here’s a good question for the Church-Taught: What do you think Jesus means by: “Be PERFECT, even as your Father in Heaven is PERFECT” ?

As for that shortened phrase “the cross.” That turns what’s been done for us (and our sister’s one-liner as well) into a useless hunk of wood as far as the average person walking the streets is concerned. The Holy Spirit says we should always refer to it as “What’s been done for us on the cross.”

As for, “GO back to” what’s been done for us on “the cross”???

Go back? Most (meaning 99.9999% of) Mature-Christians have never been there to begin with. So, it stands to reason, the majority of the rest of the world has never been there. Christian or non-Christian, they have not truly accepted PERFECTION upon themselves. Member of “a church” or not, “believer” or “nonbeliever.”

The entire manmade invention of “The Church” is so that “The Faithful” can be “set apart.”

Set apart from what? Every card-carrying Christian Churchgoer is still a self-admitted sinner. So, what is the point in separating Slaves Of Sin... apart... from Slaves Of Sin?

I’ll take a stab at answering. To build a country-club for DUES-PAYING Slaves Of Sin, of course.

You guys keep wanting to separate the sheep. Peter’s sheep. Paul’s sheep. Other sheep.

ALL the sheep have been led astray.

You and I (everyone) has been taught to continually “see” our sin — in spite of the fact that it has been taken AWAY. We have been taught to continually “confess of your sin” — in spite of the fact that it has been taken AWAY. We have been taught to continually “repent of your sin” — in spite of the fact that it has been taken AWAY.

Diabolical, isn't it? You have been taught by the Church-Taught to not understand what the word “AWAY” means.

AWAY: it means the same thing in the Scriptures as it means everywhere else. “Having gone.” “Not here anymore.”

ALL the sheep have been led astray.

None of you can honestly say: “I have truly accepted, 100%, with no “ifs,” “ands” or “buts,” that ALL of my sin (past, present and future) has been taken AWAY by what’s been done for me on the cross.”

Every time I ask if anyone in here can truthfully attest to this pledge, I hear crickets chirping. I seem to be the only one in here who can honestly and Truthfully attest to it.

Alight, let's put it ALL together... The word of the Church-Taught: “GO back to the cross and seek the perfect salvation.”

Translated into the Word of God: “Truly accept what’s been done for you on the cross and, instantly, be PERFECT, even as your Father in Heaven is PERFECT.”

 

[Marymog]

@Marymog asks: Ok...Do you believe Joseph Smith, Martin Luther, Zwingili and John Calvin 'asked'?

Do I "believe" they did? We could talk about that word a lot, too. "Belief." One can certainly presume they asked. What do you think? You tell me. Do you think they LISTENED?

I think they believed they were being guided by the Spirit. Back to my origingal question: Do you believe Joseph Smith, Martin Luther, Zwingili and John Calvin 'asked'? Or to put it another way: Do YOU believe they were guided by the Spirit into Truth?

 

[ScottA]

Alight, let's put it ALL together... The word of the Church-Taught: “GO back to the cross and seek the perfect salvation.”

Translated into the Word of God: “Truly accept what’s been done for you on the cross and, instantly, be PERFECT, even as your Father in Heaven is PERFECT.”

Salvation is indeed instantaneous, but you (and the assembly/church) have missed what was presented by Christ between His resurrection and His ascension, which is what follows all who have been crucified with Christ until they are no more in the world.

The forty days in between is a biblically significant time period demonstrated first with Noah with forty days and nights of rain, 400 years of bondage in Egypt (x100), then with Moses and Israel in the desert forty years, then 400 years of silence before Christ (100x, and 4000x since Adam). The forty days between Jesus' resurrection marking salvation from death, to His ascension marking His time of being no more in the world ("The world sees me no more"), is God's revelation of what we can and should expect after salvation until we are no more in the world. It is a time relative to the creation.

But what did that mean for Jesus, of whom we follow in likewise manner? It meant walking through walls and locked doors, causing friends and those He came into contact with to burn with wonder, eating and drinking with friends, while carrying the marks of sin, and then leaving this world to be forever with the Father. Likewise, by the power of God the walls and locked doors come down for us, the hearts of those we come in contact with burn with wonder, we eat and drink with friends, and [continue] to carry the marks of sin until we are no more in the world.

That is why they are two separate events. That is why the marks of sin would seemingly remain. That is why Jesus did not just go straight to the Father.

 

[theefaith]

No one is saved in this life! Matt 24:13

none are saved without baptismal regeneration literally a new creation in Christ!


Effects of faith & baptism!

Ez 36:25-27 washed in baptism, with a new heart and the Spirit
Jn 3:5 born again in baptism
Mk 16:16 faith & baptist
Acts 2:38 repentance & baptism
Acts 8:36-38 faith & baptism
Acts 22:16 baptism washes away sin
Rom 6:3 died with Christ
Col 2:12 risen with Christ
1 cor 12:13 baptized into the church
Gal 3:27 by baptism put on Christ
2 Tim 1:10 brought to life
2 cor 5:17 new creation
Eph 1:13 sealed by the Holy Spirit
Eph 2:1&5 brought to life in baptism
Eph 4:5 one baptism
Eph 5:26 faith and baptism
Titus 3:5 baptismal regeneration
1 pet 1:2 washed in Christ’s blood
1 pet 2:9 the kingdom of light
1 pet 3:20-21 baptism saves us!

“Faith alone” accomplishes nothing!
1 cor 13:2 even all faith (alone) without charity avails NOTHING!!!

Faith and baptism!

Scripture says none of the things about “Faith alone”!

2 Peter 1:11
For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

The Christian sacrament of baptism is the Initiation into the new covenant and must be ministered to you by the apostles!




“Faith alone”

Questions

where does scripture says we have died with Christ by “faith alone”?

Rom 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

where does scripture say we are members of Christ and his church by “faith alone”?

1 Corinthians 12:13
For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

where does scripture says we put on Christ by “faith alone”?

Galatians 3:27
For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

Where does scripture say our sins are washed away by “faith alone”?

Acts 22:16
And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

where does scripture say we are saved or justified by “faith alone”?

1 pet 3:21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us!

The only reference in scripture to “faith alone” is James 2:24 NOT BY “FAITH ALONE”?

2 pet 1: 11 For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

How can you enter by your own if it must be ministered to you? Baptism is done unto you, “not do it yourself by faith alone”

Jn 3:5 born again by faith alone?

Where is “Accept Christ as your personal lord & savior” is found in scripture?

They did not go preaching this line but went immediately to the river and baptized Jn 3:22

Acts 22:16
And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

1 Corinthians 12:13
For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

Galatians 3:27
For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

Eph 4:5 one baptism

Why don’t it say one teeny tiny little act of “faith alone”???

When we first believed we are saved?

Romans 13:11
And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed.

How can salvation be nearer than when we first believed if you’re saved by believing?

1 pet 1:9 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.

Matt 24:13 endures to the end Shall be saved.

How can salvation happen when we first believed if it’s the end?

If salvation is by “faith alone” then faith would be the greatest!
1 cor 13:13 charity is the greatest!

Even all faith much less “faith alone” without charity avails nothing!
1 cor 13:2

Faith alone” unbiblical!

WATER AND THE SPIRIT!
Baptismal regeneration is the biblical mandate!!!

 

[The Third One]

@Marymog Posts: I think they believed they were being guided by the Spirit. Back to my origingal question: Do you believe Joseph Smith, Martin Luther, Zwingili and John Calvin 'asked'? Or to put it another way: Do YOU believe they were guided by the Spirit into Truth?


In answer to my question, you write:

“I think they believed they were being guided by the Spirit.”

To quote a favored Hannibal Lector line, “That’s very slippery of you, Agent Marymog.” You think… they “believed”… they were being guided by… the Spirit.

As a Fundamentally trained Christian, when the question concerns the authenticity of what they “believe,” it is you who is doing the thinking. But, tell me, my dear Agent. Who’s doing the thinking when it comes to the authenticity of what you “believe”?

If you don’t know, I will tell you. Church-Folk, who (for nineteen-hundred years) have proven themselves wrong about nearly everything else. They do the thinking when it comes to what you “believe.”

“You must either ‘believe’ every word is the undisputed truth straight out of the mouth of God… or its ALL a lie!” And, anyone who says otherwise is an infidel or a liar.

Perhaps the worse part of any belief system is the perceived need for a belief system. “Believing” is an iffy proposition. With “belief” and “faith” there always has to be some measure of doubt — even if infinitesimal. If doubt were not involved, “belief” would not qualify as belief.

It is not small faith Jesus is talking about, when he told his disciples that they could literally move mountains into the sea if only their “pistin” (their “faith” — so the Church-Taught interpret this Word) was that of a mustard seed. Jesus is talking about something huge. Actually, Jesus is talking about something way beyond “faith.”

Jesus is talking about KNOWING.

As for the mustard seed, how does the smallest of ALL seeds become the largest of ALL plants? Because it knows that it can. The power behind the mustard seed has nothing to do with anything as uncertain as “faith.” The Greek Word Jesus uses here is “pistin.” The Word actually means “fidelity” or “soundness.” Pistin. Very close to our mechanical word that gives a car its horsepower. Way beyond “let go and let God,” it means that our pistons (our natural abilities to be ALL of what we were created to be) are firing in PERFECT-Unison with the Living God of Light. To KNOW this is to KNOW the power of God’s Creation. In our “humble” case, the power of the human mind.

That is why the most important thing Jesus ever gave humanity is something that does not require “belief.”

A gift.

You do not have to “believe” a gift. You simply have to accept it. Take it.

As for my “beliefs”? I have none. I do not “believe” in God.

I know God.

And, I also know how to take a gift. You either truly accept it — 100% with no ifs, ands or buts.

Or, you don’t.

As for Joseph Smith, Martin Luther, Zwingili and John Calvin… as you say, and I agree, they “believed” they were being guided by the Spirit. But, let’s face it, they got things wrong. They didn’t do that on purpose, but... they did get things wrong. Fifty percent wrong? Seventy-five percent wrong? Probably worse than that, for Church dogma is at least 95% wrong.

There is no room for any error when you are pontificating about God and/or the Kingdom of God.

That is precisely why “what we ‘believe’ to be Truth” needs to authenticated from every angle. Double checked and triple checked. It is good to have someone, who has a high “frame of reference,” to do the checking. I am not the enemy. I am not trying to hurt the cause. I am trying to help it. That is, if the “the cause” is to help people to learn to truly accept what’s been done for us on the cross. That’s what Jesus means to disciple the nations. Not “to make disciples” out of the nations — this was, is and remains nothing more than a multi-level marketing membership drive.

We can afford to give the Gospel-Writing Apostles of Jesus as much of a break as possible. For, their testimony is imperative and, indeed, impeccable for the most part. As, in the 99.99% zone. That’s very good. I am certain that you do not know (with ALL of what they were up against) how good. For your Church demands 100%. While your Church remains clueless, at around 5%.

It is the Apostles’ personal commentary (in numerous places) that leaves a lot to be desired. If they prove to be mistaken, here or there, it is not the end of the world. Contrary. It gives the Holy Spirit a wonderful opportunity to set the record straight.

Let’s concentrate on the very end part of ALL that slipperiness, my dear Agent Marymog. “I think they “believed” they were being guided by…… the Spirit.”

Which Spirit?

I am 99% sure that you mean, “the Holy Spirit.” However, that absolutely needs to be clarified, 100%. Even on the Ground Floor. Make sure you know what telephone number you are dialing. There were so many gods people “believed” in, back in Abraham’s day, the smartest guys in the room didn’t even trust whether there really was a real god or not; but, they “believed” Abraham knew Him. Thus, they began referring to the Real God (the Living God) as “the God of Abraham.”

Before we delve into the details of Smith, Luther and the rest of them (if you would really like to do that), the time has come (here and now) for me to share with you a little bit of what I know.

Because, I sense, that that is the question that you are really getting at. Correct? Am I a deluded “believer.” Or, by the power of the Holy Spirit, do I really know? You should already know the answer to that. The proof is in the pudding. I speak the Truth. And, it remains irrefutable.

As one proceeds upward in spirit (what I call “Being High In the Spirit,” there is much going on at once. One can easily make mistakes and be led in the wrong direction, even with simple ordinary things (and yes, with major, important and consequential things as well). As one “zoomz up” one cannot help but make mistakes. The real question is, will you learn from your mistakes?

 

[The Third One]

As I have already posted: as far back as I can remember, I have always had a very close relationship with God, specifically, the Father. Yes, Jesus says, “The only way to the Father, is through the Son.” However, Jesus is not speaking figuratively here, Jesus is speaking literally — about the physicality of it. For, one of these days, the Living God is coming back to Earth, to Live, and He is bringing His Kingdom with Him. In many ways (including the most literal-physical way). The only way that ALL of us (from Adam and onward) can actually and physically be with the Father, is through the Son.

On the other hand, from a spiritual standpoint, the only way to Truly trust the Son is to know the Father. Allow me a couple of paragraphs first... to ramble on... and I will gladly explain what I personally mean by that.

As for my theological schooling, I have had eight years. Grades one through eight. (If you think that’s funny, you should hear my “salvation story.”)

At age 17, I became involved in an amazing concept for a major musical group that was Biblically-Oriented. Having been raised by two wonderful parents (devout Catholics), up unto my seventeenth year, I had only cracked the Bible open one time (and that was to verify a verse I had heard mentioned in a movie). Although Catholics “believed” in the Bible (back then), they did not “believe” in opening it. That privilege was reserved only for the holy priest. He would open it (to whatever page he thought best), read from it and then give a sermon about it.

With being God-Thrown into that Biblical musical project (at age 17), the first Biblical book I just so happened to read was the Book of Ezekiel. Here is the crazy Truth. I had a PERFECT understanding of (what mystic Jewish sages refer to as) “the Merkabah,” the first time I read it. Of course, that’s impossible. And, if you could get a Jewish sage to talk to you about Merkabah (you couldn’t, unless you know exactly what they know about it — for they are sworn to secrecy about it), the sage would confirm to you, “The first time he read it? At age 17? That’s impossible.” And, yet, it is the Truth. No doubt, with God, ALL things are possible.

Next Book was John’s Revelation.

Then the Gospels. The first time I read the Gospels, two overpowering Truths were impressed upon me forever. (I’ll save the second one for much later — if we ever get that far... in this dismal room.) The first Truth was that Jesus knew the exact same God that I knew — overwhelmingly and without a doubt.

The next 8 years were filled with much discovery and revelation. God and me banging AWAY at it. We did a cover to cover acquisition of the entire Bible.

At the tender age of 25, I went High In the Spirit for the first time. I zoomed up to the Fifth Floor quicker than most (I may still have the world-record.) I am not bragging. I’m warning. That-high-that-quick is extremely dangerous. Even in the loving arms of Team Light, one can literally OD (overdose) on the Holy Spirit… and die. By “Light,” of course, I mean The Living God of Light — Jesus, being “The Light.”

If one is ignorant enough to allow it, Team Darkness has equal access to you at those heights. I’ll put it this way, as well as I knew my Father’s voice, They knew how to mimic His voice quite effectively. And, yes, it is so very easy to be led astray, “believing” that you are “following the Lord.” Thankfully (when High In the Spirit), both sides do not come at you at once. It’s one or the other. With me, if ever I was on “the wrong track,” there came a time (always sooner than later) when They would mess-up. I would clearly see the falsehood (or the dead-end). That is when my Father — my Genuine Father — would always step in and teach me.

I made plenty of mistakes; I had to, in order to be able to learn from them. One has to develop what the Father calls a “frame of reference.” For, in that zone, mind and spirit are way above the things of Earth, and yet, your feet are still so clumsily touching the ground. To even walk around while you are that High In the Spirit is dangerous. Best to be tired to a chair. (lol) That sounds funny; but, Truly, I am not kidding.

To drive a car with your head like that is out of the question.

Still, on my eighth-day-straight without food or sleep (I had no need for either) I was compelled to get behind the wheel of an automobile and go for a ride. I left at 8AM. I returned at 8PM. I am blessed to have not killed myself or others. More good than disaster came from that ride, but it was not uneventful (to say the least). I learned a lot of good sayings from my Father on that journey. ALL of them, unforgettable. That was the first time He ever mentioned, the “frame of reference” thing. I gained a lot of beautiful wisdoms and plays-on-Words — that no one had ever heard before. I’ll share one with you that I will never forget: “There are many roads, but there is only one road.” Great Fatherly Wisdom: “When you mess up, don’t take any shortcuts. Go ALL the way back to where you made your mistake, and then proceed forward.”

My second time Up, I learned “The Twenty-Eight Points” — a foolproof way to test the Spirits.

Off and on, the experience lasted ten months of 1987AD. Before it was over, I had made it to the Tenth Floor — the highest spiritual level a person can reach in this Life, where you can literally see God... in EVERYTHING.

What I (twenty years prior) had Truly and simply accepted — in regard to what had been done for me on the cross — had not only stood True to the test of Time, my dear friend, it stood True on the Tenth Floor.

And, when I returned (much closer to the Ground Floor) the Scriptures upheld every Word.

Between twenty-six and forty-four (my confirming years), everything, including ALL the original versions of Scripture (the Greek and the Hebrew) substantiated what I had come to know High In The Spirit. As for the uninspired “ifs,” “ands” and “buts”? Yes, including the ones that inadvertently slipped through into what we call, “Holy Scripture”? Within a Holy-Spirit-Guided, Truth-Tested frame of reference, they stick out like sore thumbs.

By far, the prophet Ezekiel has the highest IQ out of ALL the Biblical authors. And, yet, scholars rate Paul as the deep intellectual vessel. As does Paul rate himself... very HIGHLY. When swimming in that river, a whole lot of people (including the Church-Taught) elevate Paul up onto the “infallible pedestal” — just for being so hard to understand (Peter includes himself in that category). Jesus includes Peter in that category as well.

It’s a cop-out to say, “Paul’s words are hard to understand,” yet be willing to mindlessly and religiously follow Paul into the Darkness of Death.