Is God Moral?

[Logikos]

Is God moral?

Sounds like a simple enough question. I'm always amazed at the squirming it causes!

Please click "Yes" or "No" and then explain your answer.
Notice there are only two answers. That's on purpose.

I, of course, have a very definite answer and will post a somewhat detailed explanation of that answer but will wait to do so until after we get some poll results.

I've posted my thesis on the following new thread....

Our Moral God

 

[Pearl]

God is good.

Psalm 106:1
Praise the Lord. Give thanks to the Lord, for he is good; his love endures forever.

God is love.

1 John 4:8
Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love.

So @Logikos how can you question His morality?

 

[Logikos]

God is good.

Psalm 106:1
Praise the Lord. Give thanks to the Lord, for he is good; his love endures forever.

God is love.

1 John 4:8
Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love.

So @Logikos how can you question His morality?

Well, if you notice, the only vote in the poll so far is my own and I've answered in the affirmative. You should add your voice to the poll!

Maybe the group of people here will be an exception but I've asked various groups of Christian people this question over the years and I have yet to find a group where there wasn't someone who answered the question, as asked, with a "No".

Note also that the question, "Is God moral?" isn't quite the same question as "Is God good?". The question of God's morality has to do with what it means to say that God is good and, as it turns out, a great many Christians hold to doctrines that render the statement "God is good" quite meaningless.

So what do you mean when you say that God is good?

 

[Augustin56]

All morality comes from God. God is unchanging, so, therefore, morality is unchanging.

 

[Logikos]

All morality comes from God. God is unchanging, so, therefore, morality is unchanging.

This seems somewhat unresponsive.

The poll has two and only two answers for a reason. Is your answer yes or no?

 

[Pearl]

So what do you mean when you say that God is good?

Just what the bible says. He is good.

How do you see it?

And I won't do the poll because obviously there is only one correct answer. I don't understand why you had to ask the question unless it is to find people who disagree and put them on the spot.

 

[Logikos]

Just what the bible says. He is good.

How do you see it?

I'll get to answering that question with great specificity but for now I don't want to explore what you folks have to say before get into the details of my own position.

So, when someone asks you to explain what you mean by "God is good." it isn't an answer to simply repeat the statement. What does it mean to be good and in what way would that apply to God?

You can trust that I am not asking a trick question or trying to trap you here. I'm simply asking a straight forward question that most people haven't really spent a lot of time thinking through.

 

[Augustin56]

This seems somewhat unresponsive.

The poll has two and only two answers for a reason. Is your answer yes or no?

Oh, I answered the poll. I put yes. I didn't see a place on the poll to give my reasons, so I just posted to the thread. Did I miss something?

 

[Logikos]

Oh, I answered the poll. I put yes. I didn't see a place on the poll to give my reasons, so I just posted to the thread. Did I miss something?

No, you didn't miss anything I just can't tell by looking how you answered. I didn't know whether it was you or Pearl who had added the second response to the poll and your post didn't help me a whole lot.

 

[Augustin56]

Well, if you notice, the only vote in the poll so far is my own and I've answered in the affirmative. You should add your voice to the poll!

Maybe the group of people here will be an exception but I've asked various groups of Christian people this question over the years and I have yet to find a group where there wasn't someone who answered the question, as asked, with a "No".

Note also that the question, "Is God moral?" isn't quite the same question as "Is God good?". The question of God's morality has to do with what it means to say that God is good and, as it turns out, a great many Christians hold to doctrines that render the statement "God is good" quite meaningless.

So what do you mean when you say that God is good?

No, you didn't miss anything I just can't tell by looking how you answered. I didn't know whether it was you or Pearl who had added the second response to the poll and your post didn't help me a whole lot.

Ok. My apology if I wasn't clear. Let me try again...

A human act is either good or bad according as it leads to or detracts a person from his or her heavenly goal. If it is a good act, then it is a moral act. If it is a bad act, then it is an immoral act.

So, what is "good?" Something within the universe is good if it meets the purpose for which it was created. For example, a pencil is good if it writes. If it doesn't, we either need to sharpen it (fix it) or throw it away (into the fire?). In the same light, humans are made for heaven. If we are headed that way, then we can assume we are good. If we are not, then we can assume we are bad.

Since God is the source of all goodness, then it stands that God is the source of all real morality. So, everything God does is good and moral. If we think otherwise, then we can be sure that we're missing something and are incorrect.

 

[Logikos]

Ok. My apology if I wasn't clear. Let me try again...

A human act is either good or bad according as it leads to or detracts a person from his or her heavenly goal. If it is a good act, then it is a moral act. If it is a bad act, then it is an immoral act.

Alright, I follow your point and don't disagree except that I'm not certain that it's correct to say that heaven is our goal - per se. I, of course, agree with we have a heavenly calling as members of the Body of Christ but the heavenly destiny is secondary and comes as a result of the primary goal of righteousness.

So, what is "good?" Something within the universe is good if it meets the purpose for which it was created. For example, a pencil is good if it writes. If it doesn't, we either need to sharpen it (fix it) or throw it away (into the fire?). In the same light, humans are made for heaven. If we are headed that way, then we can assume we are good. If we are not, then we can assume we are bad.

This is surprisingly close to the correct answer! I don't mean for that to sound condescending but I'm just not accustomed to people getting within a mile of understanding the actual nature of right vs. wrong and so when someone gets this close it sort of surprises me!

Since God is the source of all goodness, then it stands that God is the source of all real morality.

What does it mean, in your view, for God to be the source of all goodness and in what way does it keep the meaning of the word "goodness" meaningful when applied to God Himself?

So, everything God does is good and moral.

Redundant. One cannot be good and not be moral. If an action is moral in nature then it is either good or bad. If an action is amoral it is neither good nor bad.

If we think otherwise, then we can be sure that we're missing something and are incorrect.

So, to put a finer point on the question, is the concept of righteousness defined by whatever it is that God does or is God good because He acts righteously?

What if God were to issue a decree that it was permissible to rape your neighbor's wife on any fifth Thursday of a month (like this coming May 31st for example)? Would that make rape on those days righteous or would such a decree make God evil?

(Some people in the past have freaked out when I've asked such clearly hypothetical questions as though I'm suggesting that God would ever do such thing. The whole point of picking such an obviously evil act is to make it unmistakable that its a purely hypothetical question.)

 

[Wrangler]

Thank you for the question and welcome @Logikos to the forum. Yes, YHWH is moral.

Without delving philosphically into what it means to be moral, there are a few undeniably demonstrable facts that show his morality.

1. He created existence and life.
2. He gave us Liberty (Free Will), along with life.
3. He imposted judgement on the wicked.
4. He revealed his moral standard to us.
5. He reminded us of our responsibility to obey his commands by sending many prophets, who showed many signs and wonders of YHWH's glory.
6. After centuries of failing to meet his divine standard by our own power, he sent his servant Jesus to rescue us from our own inequity, becoming one of us to fully experience compassion for our predicament, weakness to temptation to sin, to separate ourselves from our Creator, YHWH.
7. He continues to rescue people today, we who stand as a witness to his goodness, his moral transformation in our lives.

To show our ongoing depravity, only about 1 out of 4 people on Earth humbly accept his free gift of salvation through his Anointed Jesus.

 

[Logikos]

Thank you for the question and welcome @Logikos to the forum.

Yes, YHWH is moral.

Excellent! There's nothing like a straight answer.

Without delving philosphically into what it means to be moral, there are a few undeniably demonstrable facts that show his morality.

All theology is philosophy.

1. He created existence and life.

He created neither. God has always existed and has always been alive. He did not create Himself. Indeed, God Himself is Life itself. A point that will become very much a focus when I pull the trigger on offering my take on the topic of God's righteousness.

1. He gave us Liberty (Free Will), along with life.
2. He imposed judgement on the wicked.
3. He revealed his moral standard to us.
4. He reminded us of our responsibility to obey his commands by sending many prophets, who showed many signs and wonders of YHWH's glory.
5. After centuries of failing to meet his divine standard by our own power, he sent his servant Jesus to rescue us from our own inequity, becoming one of us to fully experience compassion for our predicament, weakness to temptation to sin, to separate ourselves from our Creator, YHWH.
6. He continues to rescue people today, we who stand as a witness to his goodness, his moral transformation in our lives.

To show our ongoing depravity, only about 1 out of 4 people on Earth humbly accept his free gift of salvation through his Anointed Jesus.

I think your 25% projection is likely to be optimistic. As for the rest, I'll let it stand without comment for fear of getting too far off onto rabbit trails.

 

[Wrangler]

All theology is philosophy.

Hmmm. A topic worthy of its own thread.

He created neither.

Since you deny YHWH created existence and life, I doubt we have the foundation to have a meaningful conversation on any theological topic.

Not that you will break the record for being put on my ignore list sooner than anyone (1 direct post), but you are treading dangerously in that direction, ESPECIALLY since you self-identify as a Christian.

As for the rest, I'll let it stand without comment for fear of getting too far off onto rabbit trails.

Indeed. While you and I appreciate a direct answer, you evidently do not aspire to direct replies. Sad. You had the makings of a very good addition to this community. Already, you are running and dodging, right off the bat.

Excellent! There's nothing like a straight answer.

A point that will become very much a focus when I pull the trigger on offering my take on the topic of God's righteousness.

Speaking of playing it straight, your OP is revealed to be anything but. You should have presented your thesis rather than lead with a question, only to attack answers you do not agree with.

Obviously, you are an intellectual counter puncher. I appreciate the pugilist tactic very much IN DEBATE. Not all threads are debate and I thought this was one.

 

[Logikos]

Hmmm. A topic worthy of its own thread.

It is a self-establishing statement. Theology is a branch of philosophy by definition.

Since you deny YHWH created existence and life, I doubt we have the foundation to have a meaningful conversation on any theological topic.

Not that you will break the record for being put on my ignore list sooner than anyone (1 direct post), but you are treading dangerously in that direction, ESPECIALLY since you self-identify as a Christian.

Oh brother.

Either respond directly to what I said with a substantive response or just save us all your nonsense and put me on ignore.

Indeed. While you and I appreciate a direct answer, you evidently do not aspire to direct replies.

What?

Sad. You had the makings of a very good addition to this community. Already, you are running and dodging, right off the bat.

How so?

Speaking of playing it straight, your OP is revealed to be anything but.

But overtly so! I state explicitly that I will post my detailed answer and indeed, doing so is the chief purpose of my starting the thread but that doesn't mean I have to do so right off the bat. I'm interested in seeing how people respond to the question and by what means they support their position and I don't want to muddy that water by jumping the gun and posting my own thoughts too early.

If you don't like that, I DO NOT CARE!!!!

Put me on ignore. See if I care!

Indeed, if this sort of thing is typical, then I'd prefer being on your ignore list, frankly. You ignore arguments and jump without provocation into little self-important tirades like some sort of child.

You should have presented your thesis rather than lead with a question, only to attack answers you do not agree with.

Says who, you?

Why should I care about what you think that I should have done?

Guess what? I DON'T!

Obviously, you are an intellectual counter puncher. I appreciate the pugilist tactic very much IN DEBATE. Not all threads are debate and I thought this was one.

No you didn't. You made a single point that I made an actual argument against and your response was to ignore the argument entirely and to instead post this condescending claptrap.

Get over yourself and respond with something other than your ego or get off my thread.

 

[Ritajanice]

He created neither. God has always existed and has always been alive. He did not create Himself. Indeed, God Himself is Life itself. A point that will become very much a focus when I pull the trigger on offering my take on the topic of God's righteousness

Is God Alive in Spirit?

Teach me about God’s righteousness....what does that mean?

 

[Logikos]

I cast the vote of "NO".

GOD IS GOD! He does not seek council of mere created man, nor does he base his will upon the definition of what we
think !.

I appreciate the direct answer.

In every group I've ever asked this question of, there's always at least one person who answers as you have.

To be clear, are you unwilling to acknowledge that God is good or is there something about the term "moral" that you're reacting too?

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Well, if you notice, the only vote in the poll so far is my own and I've answered in the affirmative. You should add your voice to the poll!

Maybe the group of people here will be an exception but I've asked various groups of Christian people this question over the years and I have yet to find a group where there wasn't someone who answered the question, as asked, with a "No".

Note also that the question, "Is God moral?" isn't quite the same question as "Is God good?". The question of God's morality has to do with what it means to say that God is good and, as it turns out, a great many Christians hold to doctrines that render the statement "God is good" quite meaningless.

So what do you mean when you say that God is good?

I would say God is good (righteous) is the standard or morality.

 

[Logikos]

Is God Alive in Spirit?

God is alive in every sense of the word. His is Life!

Teach me about God’s righteousness....what does that mean?

In short, it means that God acts righteously.

I understand that that is a tautology but to be more specific right now would be for me to spill the beans to early. I'll get there soon enough. Maybe you'll actually agree with me! Patience!

 

[Ritajanice]

God is alive in every sense of the word. His is Life!

Yes, Gods word/ seed is Alive and Active.

In short, it means that God acts righteously.

I understand that that is a tautology but to be more specific right now would be for me to spill the beans to early. I'll get there soon enough. Maybe you'll actually agree with me! Patience!

Ok....