Is Israel a Nation or a People?

[Always]

It was prophesied that Israel would be scattered among the nations of the earth because of the people's wickedness.

2Kings 15:29 In the time of Pekah king of Israel, Tiglath-Pileser king of Assyria came and took Ijon, Abel Beth Maakah, Janoah, Kedesh and Hazor. He took Gilead and Galilee, including all the land of Naphtali, and deported the people to Assyria

Lev. 26:33 I will scatter you among the nations and will draw out my sword and pursue you. Your land will be laid waste, and your cities will lie in ruins. 34 Then the land will enjoy its sabbath years all the time that it lies desolate and you are in the country of your enemies; then the land will rest and enjoy its sabbaths.

Deut. 28: 68
The Lord will bring you back in ships to Egypt (bondage), by a route that I promised you would never see again; and there you shall offer yourselves for sale to your enemies as male and female slaves, but there will be no buyer.

 

[Jay Ross]

Perhaps we should go back to the first reference that Jacob's descendants would be scattered throughout all of the earth can be found in this passage found in Genesis 28:-

13 And behold, the Lord stood above it and said: "I am the Lord God of Abraham your father and the God of Isaac; the earth {i.e. God’s kingdom on earth} in which you rest, I will give to you and your descendants. 14 Also your descendants shall be as the dust of the earth; you shall spread abroad to the west and the east, to the north and the south; and in you and in your seed all the families in My fertile field shall be blessed. 15 Behold, I am with you and will protect you in all things and will bring you back to My fertile field; for I will not leave you until I have done what I have spoken to you.[/i]" (My paraphrase of this section of scripture.)

In this portion of the Abrahamic Covenant given to Jacob, God foretells that Jacob's descendants would be scattered to the four compass points of the compass to be a blessing to all of the people of the earth.

Also note that only those people of the world who inhabit God's fertile soil/field will be blessed.

Also note that God promised to bring back Jacob's descendants to His fertile soil/field as well. This suggests that Jacob's descendants will walk contrary to God's statutes and commandments for a time before God will draw them back to Himself.

In 2 Chronicles 7:

19 “But if you turn away and forsake My statutes and My commandments which I have set before you, and go and serve other gods, and worship them, 20 then I will uproot them from My Fertile Field which I have given them; and this house which I have sanctified for My name I will cast out of My sight, and will make it a proverb and a byword among all peoples.

21 “And as for this house, which is exalted, everyone who passes by it will be astonished and say, ‘Why has the LORD done thus to this portion of the earth and this house?’ 22 Then they will answer, ‘Because they forsook the LORD God of their fathers, who brought them out of the country of Egypt, and embraced other gods, and worshiped them and served them; therefore, He has brought all this calamity on them.’ ”

In our near future, probably within the next 20 or so years, God will begin gathering the people of the nation of Israel to Himself and will plant them once again in a fertile field and will teach them on the religion of Israel. At this time God has promised to remove the beasts of the Field, i.e., Daniel 7:1-12, so that they can live in peace once more.

Shalom[/b]

 

[Always]

"In our near future, probably within the next 20 or so years, God will begin gathering the people of the nation of Israel to Himself and will plant them once again in a fertile field and will teach them on the religion of Israel. At this time God has promised to remove the beasts of the Field, i.e., Daniel 7:1-12, so that they can live in peace once more."

Shalom

Thank you, if I'm understanding you right, Israel is a people who will be restored from all parts of the world.....

 

[Reggie Belafonte]

Perhaps we should go back to the first reference that Jacob's descendants would be scattered throughout all of the earth can be found in this passage found in Genesis 28:-

13 And behold, the Lord stood above it and said: "I am the Lord God of Abraham your father and the God of Isaac; the earth {i.e. God’s kingdom on earth} in which you rest, I will give to you and your descendants. 14 Also your descendants shall be as the dust of the earth; you shall spread abroad to the west and the east, to the north and the south; and in you and in your seed all the families in My fertile field shall be blessed. 15 Behold, I am with you and will protect you in all things and will bring you back to My fertile field; for I will not leave you until I have done what I have spoken to you.[/i]" (My paraphrase of this section of scripture.)

In this portion of the Abrahamic Covenant given to Jacob, God foretells that Jacob's descendants would be scattered to the four compass points of the compass to be a blessing to all of the people of the earth.

Also note that only those people of the world who inhabit God's fertile soil/field will be blessed.

Also note that God promised to bring back Jacob's descendants to His fertile soil/field as well. This suggests that Jacob's descendants will walk contrary to God's statutes and commandments for a time before God will draw them back to Himself.

In 2 Chronicles 7:

19 “But if you turn away and forsake My statutes and My commandments which I have set before you, and go and serve other gods, and worship them, 20 then I will uproot them from My Fertile Field which I have given them; and this house which I have sanctified for My name I will cast out of My sight, and will make it a proverb and a byword among all peoples.

21 “And as for this house, which is exalted, everyone who passes by it will be astonished and say, ‘Why has the LORD done thus to this portion of the earth and this house?’ 22 Then they will answer, ‘Because they forsook the LORD God of their fathers, who brought them out of the country of Egypt, and embraced other gods, and worshiped them and served them; therefore, He has brought all this calamity on them.’ ”

In our near future, probably within the next 20 or so years, God will begin gathering the people of the nation of Israel to Himself and will plant them once again in a fertile field and will teach them on the religion of Israel. At this time God has promised to remove the beasts of the Field, i.e., Daniel 7:1-12, so that they can live in peace once more.

Shalom

You will fined that evil people and priest do turn away from why Jacob was called Israel, why well it points to the fact of what Israel truly means, Now Jacob was worthy of the Title in fact ! and only him in fact and one other and that was Nathaniel that Jesus called him a true Israelite and explained why in fact ! but you will always find Priest for the last 40 years will not mention that topic because they are truly Anti-Christ ! For if one did go into detail about such then the people may pick up on the value of what Israel truly means in fact ! so then they will not be mislead on the foundations regarding such and then in regards to the Tribes of Israel ? remember that is another issue ! but in relation to the reason why Jacob became Dubbed Israel ! and why Jesus himself said that Nathaniel was a true Israel !
You can not go past Jacob or Nathaniel in regards to what Israel is founded on, it's them ! they are the Standard set ! for they are worthy of God in fact !
But are the Tribes of Israel worthy ? No ! all of the people of the Tribes are not worthy bar for a few who make the grade in fact ! now some are ok but some are not worthy at all and history shows that such Tribes loose their way ! and fail ! and the reason why they failed is because they turned their back on God ! so fact is that that generation was not worthy of the God of Israel in fact !
Then we see that the Tribes at the end of the OT were not worthy of God in fact and that only a remainder were left for they had fallen under the power of Godless others in fact, but Jesus came and lead his people out of that bastard Godless trash and this became Christians !
The worthy Jews were the first Christians in fact because they were worthy of God in fact ! Only them and the rest of the Jews were Anathema in fact ! why because they were mislead by bastard Godless Jews in fact who were not worthy of God at all. but were expose by Jesus in fact ! but most so called Christians of today do not have a clue what Jesus was pointing out ! Why well it's because in the last 40 years Priest fear to point all such out in fact or are Anti-Christ in fact !

Gutless good for nothing priest who do not inspire people to Christ Jesus in fact ! by their works you will know them ! for they should inspire people to be on fire for Christ ! and not just lukewarm dingbats who just go along with the flow in the septic tank.

 

[Jay Ross]

Thank you, if I'm understanding you right, Israel is a people who will be restored from all parts of the world.....

For Israel to be gathered by God to himself, he will draw them to Himself and plant them in His Fertile Fields where they are living scattered throughout the world so that they can be a blessing to all of the nations in which they are living at that time. God is not going to restore Israelites to the Land of Canaan which was a part of the Sign Prophecy in Genesis 15:17-21 as many firmly believe must happen, but He will restore their relationship with Him as they repent of their idolatrous worship at this present time and repent on behalf of their fathers of the first, second and third age of their continual idolatrous worship. The Promised Land as a "forever" possession has become an idol for the Israelite people at this time, just as the Temple is also an idol for them and they want to rebuild the temple so that they can establish a means by which they can connect with God once more.

God is looking for Israelites who have circumcised the foreskins of their respective hearts and repented. Whose hearts are no longer like stones.

Then from the time of Armageddon, when the Kings of the earth are judged, along with the heavenly Hosts, the beasts of Daniel 7:1-12 and Satan, and they are gathered together and imprisoned in the Bottomless pit for 1,000 years, as Paul states in Romans 11:25b-26, after the Armageddon judgement of the Gentile Kings of the earth, all of Israel will be saved.

I hope that this helps with your understanding of God's future plans for Israel.

Shalom

 

[Jay Ross]

You will fined that evil people and priest do turn away from why Jacob was called Israel, why well it points to the fact of what Israel truly means, Now Jacob was worthy of the Title in fact ! and only him in fact and one other and that was Nathaniel that Jesus called him a true Israelite and explained why in fact ! but you will always find Priest for the last 40 years will not mention that topic because they are truly Anti-Christ ! For if one did go into detail about such then the people may pick up on the value of what Israel truly means in fact ! so then they will not be mislead on the foundations regarding such and then in regards to the Tribes of Israel ? remember that is another issue ! but in relation to the reason why Jacob became Dubbed Israel ! and why Jesus himself said that Nathaniel was a true Israel !
You can not go past Jacob or Nathaniel in regards to what Israel is founded on, it's them ! they are the Standard set ! for they are worthy of God in fact !
But are the Tribes of Israel worthy ? No ! all of the people of the Tribes are not worthy bar for a few who make the grade in fact ! now some are ok but some are not worthy at all and history shows that such Tribes loose their way ! and fail ! and the reason why they failed is because they turned their back on God ! so fact is that that generation was not worthy of the God of Israel in fact !
Then we see that the Tribes at the end of the OT were not worthy of God in fact and that only a remainder were left for they had fallen under the power of Godless others in fact, but Jesus came and lead his people out of that bastard Godless trash and this became Christians !
The worthy Jews were the first Christians in fact because they were worthy of God in fact ! Only them and the rest of the Jews were Anathema in fact ! why because they were mislead by bastard Godless Jews in fact who were not worthy of God at all. but were expose by Jesus in fact ! but most so called Christians of today do not have a clue what Jesus was pointing out ! Why well it's because in the last 40 years Priest fear to point all such out in fact or are Anti-Christ in fact !

Gutless good for nothing priest who do not inspire people to Christ Jesus in fact ! by their works you will know them ! for they should inspire people to be on fire for Christ ! and not just lukewarm dingbats who just go along with the flow in the septic tank.

Ah Reggie, you do not disappoint with your rhetoric again the Israelites.

God warns us in Genesis 12:1-3 not to curse Israel, i.e., Abraham's descendants, or we will be cursed ourselves.

There is a fine line between Blessing Israel and cursing Israel. It seems that you have crossed the line and instead of blessing Israel, you are in fact cursing Israel.

 

[quietthinker]

Is Israel a Nation or a People?​

Both

 

[Episkopos]

Is Israel a Nation or a People?​

Both

Israel is both a nation and a congregation of Gentiles, at least it says so in Genesis.

10 And God said unto him, Thy name is Jacob: thy name shall not be called any more Jacob, but Israel shall be thy name: and he called his name Israel.
11 And God said unto him, I am God Almighty: be fruitful and multiply; a nation and a company of nations (Melo hagoyim properly translated is actually a fulness of Gentiles) shall be of thee, and kings shall come out of thy loins;

 

[amigo de christo]

of thy SEED which is CHRIST . any peoples , any nation not accepting JESUS as the CHRIST
wont recieve the blessing . Wont be counted in among ISRAEL , But i will tell us what will await a peoples
tribes or nations that DENY HIM as the CHRIST . It will be worse for them than EVER it was for SODOM on the day of judgment .
LETS NOT go believing the all inclusive love lie which overlooks the DIRE NEED TO HAVE BELIEVEDON CHRIST .
OR prepare to wail on the DAY of the LORD is all i can say .

 

[Ronald Nolette]

It was prophesied that Israel would be scattered among the nations of the earth because of the people's wickedness.

2Kings 15:29 In the time of Pekah king of Israel, Tiglath-Pileser king of Assyria came and took Ijon, Abel Beth Maakah, Janoah, Kedesh and Hazor. He took Gilead and Galilee, including all the land of Naphtali, and deported the people to Assyria

Lev. 26:33 I will scatter you among the nations and will draw out my sword and pursue you. Your land will be laid waste, and your cities will lie in ruins. 34 Then the land will enjoy its sabbath years all the time that it lies desolate and you are in the country of your enemies; then the land will rest and enjoy its sabbaths.

Deut. 28: 68
The Lord will bring you back in ships to Egypt (bondage), by a route that I promised you would never see again; and there you shall offer yourselves for sale to your enemies as male and female slaves, but there will be no buyer.

Israel is both a land and a people.

 

[amigo de christo]

Israel is both a land and a people.

Its a people . But its a people WHOSE HEART AND MIND is UPON THE LORD . now such a people have promises .
This can be seen even in the long ago days under the first covenant . The people GOD called .
And unto whom GOD gave promise of a city and a place wherein they would dwell .
Israel is a people . GIVEN THE PROMISES .
But ISRAEL , That is TRUE ISRAEL BELIEVES . ABRAHAM BELIEVED. SO did His son and etc.
Abraham walked in the very land that had been PROMISED BY GOD to be GIVEN to Abraham . YET he walked in it as though
a stranger . Abraham looked for the promise , he looked for the very city , His heart , his mind , his trust and his hope
was IN HE who had created man . Abraham , his whole life , walked through canan and areas NEVER even
seeing the very promise of said place , but knew far more than even those who were allowed to enter knew .
He knew something even most of christendom no longer knows ,
Abraham KNEW the TRUE PROMISE . and it wasnt about the earthly , it was about THE HEAVENLY , IT WAS ABOUT JESUS CHRIST
something even most jews knew not through all ages . something this world does not know , no not even most of christendom .
FOR man looketh for the promise that gives him that which pleases his heart in this world , in the cares and pleasures of THIS LIFE .
Abraham looked for something else . Abraham BELIEVED what the CREATOR had said , the very creator HIMSELF .
YET THE RAINBOW ALL INCLUSIVE CHRISTENDOM , and the lets put out hope in natural israel groups KNOW NOT .
ABRAHAM BELIEVED . and when i say BELIEVED it means HE actually BELIEVED WHAT GOD said , not what men might say GOD
said , BUT WHAT GOD SAID . IF we cant believe and trust in the written words in the bible , but rather choose
men who twist crap , THEN WE DONT BELIEVE GOD , THEN WE DONT BELIEVE HIS CHIRST .
FOR had we believed HIS CHRIST , WE WOULD HAVE BELEIVED JESUS WORDS . BINGO .

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Israel is a nation, Who God said his blessing them would cause the world to know he is the one true God..

They are being punished now. but they will repent at the end of the time of Jacob's trouble. also known as the great tribulation

 

[Jay Ross]

Abraham walked in the very land that had been PROMISED BY GOD to be GIVEN to Abraham . YET he walked in it as though
a stranger

Stephan in Acts 7 states that Abraham did not receive any possession in the Land of Canaan and if we translate Genesis 13:14-17 correctly then this is born out as well. Sadly, our English translations gives the impression that Abraham did receive possession of the land that he had seen and walked upon.

This is how I would paraphrase this verses: -

14 And the Lord said to Abram, after Lot had separated from him: "Lift your eyes now and look from the place where you are — northward, southward, eastward, and westward; 15 for all the earth which you see, {that (entity)}, I will give to your descendants for a long period of time whose ending, which is beyond man’s comprehension, is at the vanishing point, {of this particular time period}, in the future. 16 And I will make your descendants as the dust of the earth; so that if a man could number the dust of the earth, then your descendants also could be numbered. 17 Arise, walk in my earth through its length and its width, for this I will give. "

Another way of paraphrasing verse 15 is: - “15 for the entity of all the earth which you see, that entity, I will give to your descendants for a long period of time where the end point of that time period, will be beyond your descendants' capacity to comprehend when the possession of the described entity will end.

In Genesis 12:1-3 this is what God promised Abraham when He called him: -

12:1 Now the Lord had said to Abram:
"Get out of your country,
From your family
And from your father's house,
To my earth that I will show you.
2 I will make you a great nation;
I will bless you
And make your name great;
And you shall be a blessing.
3 I will bless those who bless you,
And I will curse him who curses you;
And through you all the families, inhabiting my fertile field/soil shall be blessed."

The above paraphrasing, I believe best expresses God promises to Abraham.

"Christianity" still has a long way to go in understanding God's purposes for humanity.

Shalom

PS: - Unless people are inhabiting God's fertile field and drawing our nourishment from God, then we are not a part of God's assembly of Saints.

 

[amigo de christo]

Stephan in Acts 7 states that Abraham did not receive any possession in the Land of Canaan and if we translate Genesis 13:14-17 correctly then this is born out as well. Sadly, our English translations gives the impression that Abraham did receive possession of the land that he had seen and walked upon.

This is how I would paraphrase this verses: -

14 And the Lord said to Abram, after Lot had separated from him: "Lift your eyes now and look from the place where you are — northward, southward, eastward, and westward; 15 for all the earth which you see, {that (entity)}, I will give to your descendants for a long period of time whose ending, which is beyond man’s comprehension, is at the vanishing point, {of this particular time period}, in the future. 16 And I will make your descendants as the dust of the earth; so that if a man could number the dust of the earth, then your descendants also could be numbered. 17 Arise, walk in my earth through its length and its width, for this I will give. "

Another way of paraphrasing verse 15 is: - “15 for the entity of all the earth which you see, that entity, I will give to your descendants for a long period of time where the end point of that time period, will be beyond your descendants' capacity to comprehend when the possession of the described entity will end.

In Genesis 12:1-3 this is what God promised Abraham when He called him: -

12:1 Now the Lord had said to Abram:
"Get out of your country,
From your family
And from your father's house,
To my earth that I will show you.
2 I will make you a great nation;
I will bless you
And make your name great;
And you shall be a blessing.
3 I will bless those who bless you,
And I will curse him who curses you;
And through you all the families, inhabiting my fertile field/soil shall be blessed."

The above paraphrasing, I believe best expresses God promises to Abraham.

"Christianity" still has a long way to go in understanding God's purposes for humanity.

Shalom

PS: - Unless people are inhabiting God's fertile field and drawing our nourishment from God, then we are not a part of God's assembly of Saints.

actually if we read it we would understand exactly what stephen is meaning . cause ABRAHAM himself , as we see IN GENESIS
never did come to the CITY that was prepared of GOD . THE ENGLISH IS JUST FINE my friend . Just fine .
This lamb staying GLUED in the ol KJV . it will come together more and more in time . They can keep the so called
words of greek and hebrew . SEEN way too many get decieved into agendas through that angle . This lamb wont budge .
BUT DO be encouraged . When we read the whole of the scrips daily , day in and day out
YOU would be amazed at how simple all things become for us who do so . its men we better watch out for my friend .
They have a way of decieving folks .

 

[amigo de christo]

watch out cause these wolves in wool are getting very clever .
Its much like an example of the transgenders of old verses those of today .
Those of the old appear more as the sex they were born
some of these of today , however , due to blockers and etc from puberty
are a bit harder to detect . BUT BELEIVE ME they are still not as they claim or appear to be .
THE SAME with the wolves . some can determine folks like kenneth copeland as a wolf
but ol smiley joe they cannot . watch out cause times are getting much more deceptive too
as they all are headed right into the social redist of wealth green agenda . THEY gonna appear more
loving , they gonna act less in love with money , BUT BE ASSURED their LOVE IS STILL MONEY .
watch out cause men with smiles are many , yet men with true doctrine are VERY FEW indeed.

 

[amigo de christo]

Stephan in Acts 7 states that Abraham did not receive any possession in the Land of Canaan and if we translate Genesis 13:14-17 correctly then this is born out as well. Sadly, our English translations gives the impression that Abraham did receive possession of the land that he had seen and walked upon.

This is how I would paraphrase this verses: -

14 And the Lord said to Abram, after Lot had separated from him: "Lift your eyes now and look from the place where you are — northward, southward, eastward, and westward; 15 for all the earth which you see, {that (entity)}, I will give to your descendants for a long period of time whose ending, which is beyond man’s comprehension, is at the vanishing point, {of this particular time period}, in the future. 16 And I will make your descendants as the dust of the earth; so that if a man could number the dust of the earth, then your descendants also could be numbered. 17 Arise, walk in my earth through its length and its width, for this I will give. "

Another way of paraphrasing verse 15 is: - “15 for the entity of all the earth which you see, that entity, I will give to your descendants for a long period of time where the end point of that time period, will be beyond your descendants' capacity to comprehend when the possession of the described entity will end.

In Genesis 12:1-3 this is what God promised Abraham when He called him: -

12:1 Now the Lord had said to Abram:
"Get out of your country,
From your family
And from your father's house,
To my earth that I will show you.
2 I will make you a great nation;
I will bless you
And make your name great;
And you shall be a blessing.
3 I will bless those who bless you,
And I will curse him who curses you;
And through you all the families, inhabiting my fertile field/soil shall be blessed."

The above paraphrasing, I believe best expresses God promises to Abraham.

"Christianity" still has a long way to go in understanding God's purposes for humanity.

Shalom

PS: - Unless people are inhabiting God's fertile field and drawing our nourishment from God, then we are not a part of God's assembly of Saints.

true christanity already understands GOD purpose for humanity . paul , james , jude , peter , the originals UNDERSTOOD IT WELL.
ITS todays men that are simply leading the blind farther into greater darkness by offering up an idea
christanity will soon come to THIS SO CALLLED UNDERSTANDING . WHEN INDEED they led them and the world RIGHT TO THE LIE
instead . THE LIE for peace and safety , the LIE of unity as one . WATCH OUT cause its growing fast now .

 

[amigo de christo]

ye shall know them by the direction they are leading one .
Far away from the original pattern LEFT TO US IN THE BIBLE and right into the snare of the lie of all inclusive love
for unity we are one world peace n safety . YE shall know them by their hope
FOR their hope is in men and in this world and thus they preach the only peace , the only love and the only hope
they have to attain this so called WORLD PEACE N SAFETY . they reconcile men to men
NOT MEN TO GOD . no the original gospel is a stumbling block to their desired goals
its a offense which is in the way of their so called peace n safety .
Watch out , cause about the time they think they have attained it
about the time they be hollering as one PEACE N SAFETY , THE WRATH OF GOD COMETH FULL FORCE
and without mixture against them , and their false love god , and any and all who sat under them
and loved their lie .

 

[amigo de christo]

many are going under the guise of a well constructed plan . a plan devised by the dark one to gather all as one
against CHRIST and the saints .
Many are now under the influence of this plan that satan through the lustful desires of men , have used these greedy elites
to build his empire . He has used their love for power and control to bring about a very wicked and vile plan .
a plan these elites believe will give them their desired utopia and world power .
Many have bought into the green lie , the all inclusive deluisoin of a love that came of the world and NOT OF GOD
but rather as HE who desires to be AS GOD .
The dragon has not been at rest
the mystery of inquity has not been at rest
that which is of anti christ has not been at rest .
And now in this last hour the delusion rises and will rise to decieve any and all NOT IN the lambs book of life
to merge as one under what it has called and calleth love and God .
no man can stop it . the course is allowed to finish and to fullfill all minds who rejected the love of the truth
who had pleasure in unrighteousness . IT will cause all to merge as one unto the day of amergeddon .
And on that day and in that hour , THE WRATH OF GOD WILL COME AGAINST THEM ALL .
WE better get in our bibles , we better preach THAT gospel , we better learn THAT GOD , HIS CHRIST and all sound doctrine well .

 

[amigo de christo]

The HARLOT reigns , and through the abraham peace accords shall JERSUALEM DECIEVE THE ENTIRE WORLD as ONE .
The whore has been at work , the HARLOT has been busy . Some of her loudest men and greatest leaders
have led the world right to this last hour great deceptoin . SHE WILL SIT OVER JERUSALEM
which though it has returned , IS STILL IN BONDAGE with her children . watch out folks , a heavy DELUSION IS BUILDING
and the end of all things are running a very fast course .

 

[RedFan]

The LXX used phulai for "people" or "clans," and ethnē for "nations." Gen. 10:31-32 does so twice (NIV):

v.31 “These are the sons of Shem, by their clans (LXX phulai) and languages, in their territories and nations (LXX ethnē).”

v. 32 “These are the clans (LXX phulai) of Noah’s sons, according to their lines of decent, within their nations (LXX ethnē).”


Fun fact: Gen. 12:3 provides (NIV): “All the peoples (LXX phulai) on earth will be blessed though you.” In Gal. 3:8 Paul mistranslated Gen. 12:3 in order to make a point – that faith is salvific as well for the Gentiles – and substituted ethnē for the LXX’s phulai in order to make that point. (Paul's straying from the LXX when lifting an OT verse is exceedingly rare.)