Is it ok for a Christian to kill people?

[Duckybill]

Luke 9:24 (NASB)
[sup]24 [/sup]"For whoever wishes to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake, he is the one who will save it.

 

[HammerStone]

So then you're going to question my faith?

Way to sink to a new level there, but it's the usual response.

 

[archaeologist5]

I just have to say, I don't have much respect for anyone who'd let someone murder their wife, rape their daughters, or molest their sons and simply stand by. Just hope to goodness that the wrong people don't find your address with statements like that - I will pray for you there because there are evil people in the world, and just like the Tower of Siloam, bad things do happen that we have to be ready to address as a Christian.

i go along with this sentiment as well but the people you are responding to lack understanding and are very foolish, so be careful, they will be ignored for their immature ideas.

That's a pretty stiff rebuke based on one issue, but since you'd choose to declare self defense an unforgivable sin, I think the self-defined nature of your religion is clear. I hope and pray never to have to take a life, but if they threaten the life of those around me, I will do it and I will gladly answer to Christ for it. Biblically speaking, his response will be a good bit different from your scenario.

remember you are answering people who are cherry picking their verses and rely upon those which tell them what they want to hear and ignore those that do not. they also limited God's actions to what they want done and refuse to do what He wants done. they also forget that when paul was threatened, he was let down over the wall in order that he may escape. is that not self-defense? but according to their logic, paul should have stayed and be killed.

i want to answer theimmature people on this board but i do not think it is a wise move. i will think on it.

 

[HammerStone]

remember you are answering people who are cherry picking their verses and rely upon those which tell them what they want to hear and ignore those that do not. they also limited God's actions to what they want done and refuse to do what He wants done. they also forget that when paul was threatened, he was let down over the wall in order that he may escape. is that not self-defense? but according to their logic, paul should have stayed and be killed.

Well, the great irony of that doctrine is that at some point there probably wouldn't be any Christians around. Unfortunately the tendency is to make you a blood-thirsty killer if you'd *gasp* defend your wife and child(ren). When that doesn't pan out, because it's not Biblical - they begin to question your faith.

I've already lost a lot of things in my life for Christ. I'm certainly nothing great nor have I sacrificed anything amazing, but this sort of hypothetical Christianity is a complete waste of time. I think when the rubber meets the road, a lot of people can say one thing and do another.

 

[archaeologist5]

#1. Why do you assume that God won't show up?

None of which is valid excuse to disobey Jesus.

Luke 6:27-29 (NASB)
[sup]27 [/sup]"But I say to you who hear, love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, [sup]28 [/sup]bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you. [sup]29 [/sup]"Whoever hits you on the cheek, offer him the other also; and whoever takes away your coat, do not withhold your shirt from him either.

#2. The key phrase is "my words". I'm interested in God's Words.

Luke 9:54-56 (NASB)
[sup]54 [/sup]When His disciples James and John saw this, they said, "Lord, do You want us to command fire to come down from heaven and consume them?" [sup]55 [/sup]But He turned and rebuked them, [and said, "You do not know what kind of spirit you are of; [sup]56 [/sup]for the Son of Man did not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them."]

#3. Sounds like a child wrote that statement.

I'm not under the Law of Moses. Are you?

#4. Again, you give no NT proof. That's because you don't have any.

Romans 12:17-21 (NASB)
[sup]17 [/sup]Never pay back evil for evil to anyone. Respect what is right in the sight of all men. [sup]18 [/sup]If possible, so far as it depends on you, be at peace with all men. [sup]19 [/sup]Never take your own revenge, beloved, but leave room for the wrath of God, for it is written, "VENGEANCE IS MINE, I WILL REPAY," says the Lord. [sup]20 [/sup]"BUT IF YOUR ENEMY IS HUNGRY, FEED HIM, AND IF HE IS THIRSTY, GIVE HIM A DRINK; FOR IN SO DOING YOU WILL HEAP BURNING COALS ON HIS HEAD." [sup]21 [/sup]Do not be overcome by evil, but OVERCOME EVIL WITH GOOD.

i put numbers in the quote to make it easier this time:

#1. i could say in response, why do you tempt God? your inaction and failure to protect as per the Bible shows you are in disobedience to God's word.

#2. you need to learn discernment instead of looking at the surface of someone's terminology and then dismissing it

#3. you have a lot of growing up to do and from the OLD testament-- get wisdom and understanding. you need a lot of it and a lot of maturing before you tackle subjects like this one.

#4. christians are to follow the WHOLE Bible and not just use the old testament when it suits them. nor are they to limit their obedience to the New Testament alone, for that ignores many lessons such as King David who was still beloved of God though he was a warrior and killed many people. your ignorance of the OLD testament warps your use of the New.

 

[Duckybill]

So then you're going to question my faith?

Way to sink to a new level there, but it's the usual response.

Quoting Scripture is "sinking to a new level"? Jesus required us to forsake ALL, even our lives and families. I did not question your faith. We are debating, right? Christianity today shows little resemblance to NT Christianity. It is near powerless.

Luke 14:25-26 (NASB)
[sup]25 [/sup]Now large crowds were going along with Him; and He turned and said to them, [sup]26 [/sup]"If anyone comes to Me, and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be My disciple.

If Jesus preached this message today most would walk away.

Narrow is the way and FEW there be ...

 

[archaeologist5]

Well, the great irony of that doctrine is that at some point there probably wouldn't be any Christians around. Unfortunately the tendency is to make you a blood-thirsty killer if you'd *gasp* defend your wife and child(ren). When that doesn't pan out, because it's not Biblical - they begin to question your faith.

I've already lost a lot of things in my life for Christ. I'm certainly nothing great nor have I sacrificed anything amazing, but this sort of hypothetical Christianity is a complete waste of time. I think when the rubber meets the road, a lot of people can say one thing and do another.

well, i do not think that a certain poster or two would be married very long if they did waht they said here and their wives survived the ordeal they let take place. i believe there is another verse which speaks about not taking care of one's family, i would have to look up the reference again as it has been awhile since i looked at it and see how it would apply.

i think some people here need to do a bible study on the topic 'family' and the husbands' resp. instead of just taking verses out of context.

Quoting Scripture is "sinking to a new level"? Jesus required us to forsake ALL, even our lives and families. I did not question your faith. We are debating, right? Christianity today shows little resemblance to NT Christianity. It is near powerless.

Luke 14:25-26 (NASB)
[sup]25 [/sup]Now large crowds were going along with Him; and He turned and said to them, [sup]26 [/sup]"If anyone comes to Me, and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be My disciple.

If Jesus preached this message today most would walk away.

Narrow is the way and FEW there be ...

that is what i forgot to mention in my other reply to you. your abuse of scripture shows you do not know what the words mean and you do not know how to apply them correctly.

Yes I can see it now when on the last day and you meet Jesus, and he asks you: Do you love me? Then he will till you that to love him was to hear his Word and live that Word.



(Matthew 7:21-23) “It is not those who say to me, ‘Lord, Lord’, who will enter the kingdom of Heaven but the person who does the will of My Father in Heaven. When the day comes many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, cast out demons in your name, work many miracles in your name?’ Then I shall tell them to their faces: I have never known you; away from me, you evil men!”







You then tell Jesus that you believed it your duty and right to harm someone to protect your family and country.



Then Jesus may remind you of the following verse.



(Matthew 10:37-39) “ "Anyone who loves his father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves his son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me; and anyone who does not take his cross and follow me is not worthy of me. Whoever finds his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life for my sake will find it.

this whole post is just bad and speaking for Christ in such a limited fashion is not good. you forget so many scriptures in your haste to justify your personal belief and to force others to join it. please do a bible study on the issue of family, the husb, resp. and Christ's view and please use both theold and the new testaments.

Quoting Scripture is "sinking to a new level"? Jesus required us to forsake ALL, even our lives and families. I did not question your faith. We are debating, right? Christianity today shows little resemblance to NT Christianity. It is near powerless.

Luke 14:25-26 (NASB)
[sup]25 [/sup]Now large crowds were going along with Him; and He turned and said to them, [sup]26 [/sup]"If anyone comes to Me, and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be My disciple.

If Jesus preached this message today most would walk away.

Narrow is the way and FEW there be ...

again, you demonstrate an ignorance onthe meaning of scripture and misuse them to fit your wrongly held personal beliefs.

 

[Duckybill]

i put numbers in the quote to make it easier this time:

#1. i could say in response, why do you tempt God? your inaction and failure to protect as per the Bible shows you are in disobedience to God's word.

No Scripture?

#2. you need to learn discernment instead of looking at the surface of someone's terminology and then dismissing it

#3. you have a lot of growing up to do and from the OLD testament-- get wisdom and understanding. you need a lot of it and a lot of maturing before you tackle subjects like this one.

#4. christians are to follow the WHOLE Bible and not just use the old testament when it suits them. nor are they to limit their obedience to the New Testament alone, for that ignores many lessons such as King David who was still beloved of God though he was a warrior and killed many people. your ignorance of the OLD testament warps your use of the New.

You obviously have no NT to back you so let's just agree to disagree.

 

[HammerStone]

Quoting Scripture is "sinking to a new level"? Jesus required us to forsake ALL, even our lives and families. I did not question your faith. We are debating, right? Christianity today shows little resemblance to NT Christianity. It is near powerless.

When they're picked and chosen out of context, yes.

Losing one's life for Christ means a whole lot more than simply looking for the nearest murderer, or standing by as your family is wiped out.

In fact, let's go to God's Word - all of it.

[bible=Exodus 22:2-3]
If a thief is found breaking in and is struck so that he dies, there shall be no bloodguilt for him, but if the sun has risen on him, there shall be bloodguilt for him. He shall surely pay. If he has nothing, then he shall be sold for his theft.[/bible]

 

[archaeologist5]

No Scripture?

You obviously have no NT to back you so let's just agree to disagree.

wrong again. your leap to a conclusion and your omittance of half the scriptures shows you need to grow in Christ a lot more.

When they're picked and chosen out of context, yes.

Losing one's life for Christ means a whole lot more than simply looking for the nearest murderer, or standing by as your family is wiped out.

one of the things that bothers me about duckybill, is that he will let God protect him but he refuses to protect those under his care. sounds like a very selfish, superficial person who doesn't understand that God has a multitude of ways to protect people who believe in him and one of those ways is to use the husband and father.

 

[Duckybill]

When they're picked and chosen out of context, yes.

The 'context' is the NT. They were persecuted to the death. No NT record of killing anyone or even defending themselves.

Losing one's life for Christ means a whole lot more than simply looking for the nearest murderer, or standing by as your family is wiped out.

It means dying rather than disobeying the command, "But I say to you, do not resist an evil person;"

Couldn't be any clearer.

In fact, let's go to God's Word - all of it.

Exodus 22:2-3
If a thief is found breaking in and is struck so that he dies, there shall be no bloodguilt for him, but if the sun has risen on him, there shall be bloodguilt for him. He shall surely pay. If he has nothing, then he shall be sold for his theft.

Do we also execute sinners as Moses commanded? Or do we pick and choose?

 

[Duckybill]

wrong again. your leap to a conclusion and your omittance of half the scriptures shows you need to grow in Christ a lot more.

You still haven't quoted NT. I have.

Romans 12:19-21 (NASB)
[sup]19 [/sup]Never take your own revenge, beloved, but leave room for the wrath of God, for it is written, "VENGEANCE IS MINE, I WILL REPAY," says the Lord. [sup]20 [/sup]"BUT IF YOUR ENEMY IS HUNGRY, FEED HIM, AND IF HE IS THIRSTY, GIVE HIM A DRINK; FOR IN SO DOING YOU WILL HEAP BURNING COALS ON HIS HEAD." [sup]21 [/sup]Do not be overcome by evil, but OVERCOME EVIL WITH GOOD.

one of the things that bothers me about duckybill, is that he will let God protect him but he refuses to protect those under his care.

I ask God to protect them too. And He does.

Matthew 6:13 (NASB)
[sup]13 [/sup]'And do not lead us into temptation, but DELIVER US FROM EVIL.

Don't you pray this prayer daily?

sounds like a very selfish, superficial person who doesn't understand that God has a multitude of ways to protect people who believe in him and one of those ways is to use the husband and father.

Today's 'Christianity' is dead and powerless, fearful of trusting in the living God of the Bible. God doesn't need guns and bombs to protect His own. Satan has stripped the modern church of its power.

Hebrews 13:5-6 (NASB)
[sup]5 [/sup]for He Himself has said, "I WILL NEVER DESERT YOU, NOR WILL I EVER FORSAKE YOU," [sup]6 [/sup]so that we confidently say, "THE Lord IS MY HELPER, I WILL NOT BE AFRAID. WHAT WILL MAN DO TO ME?"

If God doesn't protect you and yours you should be finding out why. He is my HELPER.

Psalm 91:5-11 (NASB)
[sup]5 [/sup]You will not be afraid of the terror by night, Or of the arrow that flies by day;
[sup]6 [/sup]Of the pestilence that stalks in darkness, Or of the destruction that lays waste at noon.
[sup]7 [/sup]A thousand may fall at your side And ten thousand at your right hand, But it shall not approach you.
[sup]8 [/sup]You will only look on with your eyes And see the recompense of the wicked.
[sup]9 [/sup]For you have made the Lord, my refuge, Even the Most High, your dwelling place.
[sup]10 [/sup]NO EVIL WILL BEFALL YOU, Nor will any plague come near your tent.
[sup]11 [/sup]For He will give His angels charge concerning you, To guard you in all your ways.

 

[Doppleganger]

Matthew 26:51 And, behold, one of them which were with Jesus stretched out his hand, and drew his sword, and struck a servant of the high priest's, and smote off his ear.

Do you think Jesus had a clue about human nature?
No violence HuH? Is that your point? Need More?
Do I Need to explain the narrative or historical context here?

John 18:26 One of the servants of the high priest, being his kinsman whose ear Peter cut off, saith, Did not I see thee in the garden with him?

Mark 3:17 And James the son of Zebedee, and John the brother of James; and he surnamed them Boanerges, which is, The sons of thunder:

993 boanergev Boanerges bo-an-erg-es'
of Aramaic origin 01123 and 07266 vwgr-ynb; ; n pr m
AV-Boanerges 1; 1
Boanerges =" sons of thunder"

1) a nickname given to James and John, the sons of Zebedee, by the Lord. The name seems to denote fiery and destructive zeal that may be likened to a thunder storm.

Matthew 21:33-42
Hear another parable: There was a certain householder, which planted a vineyard, and hedged it round about, and digged a winepress in it, and built a tower, and let it out to husbandmen, and went into a far country:
And when the time of the fruit drew near, he sent his servants to the husbandmen, that they might receive the fruits of it.
And the husbandmen took his servants, and beat one, and killed another, and stoned another.
Again, he sent other servants more than the first: and they did unto them likewise.
But last of all he sent unto them his son, saying, They will reverence my son.
But when the husbandmen saw the son, they said among themselves, This is the heir; come, let us kill him, and let us seize on his inheritance.
And they caught him, and cast him out of the vineyard, and slew him.
When the lord therefore of the vineyard cometh, what will he do unto those husbandmen?
They say unto him, He will miserably destroy those wicked men, and will let out his vineyard unto other husbandmen, which shall render him the fruits in their seasons.
Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?

Psalms 81:7 Thou calledst in trouble, and I delivered thee; I answered thee in the secret place of thunder: I proved thee at the waters of Meribah. Selah. {Meribah: or, Strife}

Yes, in the Last Days God will have the Victory! And you won't have to do a thing.

 

[HammerStone]

The 'context' is the NT. They were persecuted to the death. No NT record of killing anyone or even defending themselves.

Of course, you throw out the Old Testament because it doesn't jive with your line of thinking. Great work with holding true to the Word - just throw out the parts that you don't like, right?

It means dying rather than disobeying the command, "But I say to you, do not resist an evil person;"

And the CONTEXT of this NT verse is dealing with people that slap you or steal your cloak. Not murdering those around you. Stay in context, for once!

Do we also execute sinners as Moses commanded? Or do we pick and choose?

They repent or God essentially executes them, yes.

 

[Duckybill]

Matthew 26:51 And, behold, one of them which were with Jesus stretched out his hand, and drew his sword, and struck a servant of the high priest's, and smote off his ear.

Do you think Jesus had a clue about human nature?
No violence HuH? Is that your point? Need More?
Do I Need to explain the narrative or historical context here?

John 18:26 One of the servants of the high priest, being his kinsman whose ear Peter cut off, saith, Did not I see thee in the garden with him?

Jesus rebuked him for his action.

Mark 3:17 And James the son of Zebedee, and John the brother of James; and he surnamed them Boanerges, which is, The sons of thunder:

993 boanergev Boanerges bo-an-erg-es'
of Aramaic origin 01123 and 07266 vwgr-ynb; ; n pr m
AV-Boanerges 1; 1
Boanerges =" sons of thunder"

1) a nickname given to James and John, the sons of Zebedee, by the Lord. The name seems to denote fiery and destructive zeal that may be likened to a thunder storm.

Again, Jesus rebuked them.

Matthew 21:33-42
Hear another parable: There was a certain householder, which planted a vineyard, and hedged it round about, and digged a winepress in it, and built a tower, and let it out to husbandmen, and went into a far country:
And when the time of the fruit drew near, he sent his servants to the husbandmen, that they might receive the fruits of it.
And the husbandmen took his servants, and beat one, and killed another, and stoned another.
Again, he sent other servants more than the first: and they did unto them likewise.
But last of all he sent unto them his son, saying, They will reverence my son.
But when the husbandmen saw the son, they said among themselves, This is the heir; come, let us kill him, and let us seize on his inheritance.
And they caught him, and cast him out of the vineyard, and slew him.
When the lord therefore of the vineyard cometh, what will he do unto those husbandmen?
They say unto him, He will miserably destroy those wicked men, and will let out his vineyard unto other husbandmen, which shall render him the fruits in their seasons.
Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?

Psalms 81:7 Thou calledst in trouble, and I delivered thee; I answered thee in the secret place of thunder: I proved thee at the waters of Meribah. Selah. {Meribah: or, Strife}

Yes, in the Last Days God will have the Victory! And you won't have to do a thing.

Your point?

Of course, you throw out the Old Testament because it doesn't jive with your line of thinking. Great work with holding true to the Word - just throw out the parts that you don't like, right?

I don't 'throw it out'. There is MUCH info about God therein. But God gave Christians the New Covenant. Jesus paid for it with His Blood.

And the CONTEXT of this NT verse is dealing with people that slap you or steal your cloak. Not murdering those around you. Stay in context, for once!

The command "[sup] [/sup]"But I say to you, do not resist an evil person; " couldn't be any clearer.

They repent or God essentially executes them, yes.

My question was "Do WE also execute sinners as Moses commanded?"

 

[Nomad]

And the CONTEXT of this NT verse is dealing with people that slap you or steal your cloak. Not murdering those around you. Stay in context, for once!

Good point. A slap in the face is an insult, and theft is an inconvenience, but neither are attempted murder.

 

[Doppleganger]

View attachment 48

Is this a joke, are we suppose to just keep fighting, I'm right your right, or do we surrender to the Amish or Submit to the Allah's?

 

[HammerStone]

I don't 'throw it out'. There is MUCH info about God therein. But God gave Christians the New Covenant. Jesus paid for it with His Bloo

Matthew 5:18
For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished.

The command " "But I say to you, do not resist an evil person; " couldn't be any clearer.

http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G4190&t=ESV

Why don't you also just quote the entire verse, not the part you like.

Matthew 5:39
But I say to you, Do not resist the one who is evil. But if anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also.

See, the thing about it is when you're teaching someone - particularly such a strong concept, you're not going to pick the easy examples. Murder is not mentioned here, in fact this wasn't addressing the murder commandment:

Matthew 5:38
You have heard that it was said, 'An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.'

In other words, the focus was on extracting hurt for hurt. As Christians we are not called to do that, but having something stolen from you or some other superficial pain is something that we can let go and forgive. If Jesus ever meant this to deal with killing in self defense, he would have clearly said so.

Being persecuted for your faith in Jesus Christ is not the same as some garbage wanting to rape your daughter. Period.

 

[Duckybill]

Why don't you also just quote the entire verse, not the part you like.

The part I like? It's not a matter of 'liking' it. It's God's command for Christians.

See, the thing about it is when you're teaching someone - particularly such a strong concept, you're not going to pick the easy examples. Murder is not mentioned here, in fact this wasn't addressing the murder commandment:

Nobody here has given any NT justification for killing anyone, because it doesn't exist.

Being persecuted for your faith in Jesus Christ is not the same as some garbage wanting to rape your daughter. Period.

Honestly it sounds like many of you don't believe God will help you. The promises for His help are many.

 

[HammerStone]

Nobody here has given any NT justification for killing anyone, because it doesn't exist.

When you only listen to half of God's word, it's difficult to understand many things. I've shown as much as I can show, I'll let the Word do the rest of the teaching for those that will listen.