Is Jesus a Man That God Selected?

[Aunty Jane]

If Jesus isn't God, then what and who do these verses refer to?

John 1:1-3
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

In Greek, this is not the way that scripture reads.....(Mounce Interlinear)

"In en the beginning archē was eimi the ho Word logos, and kai the ho Word logos was eimi with pros · ho God theos, and kai the ho Word logos was eimi God theos. 2 He houtos was eimi in en the beginning archē with pros · ho God theos. 3 All pas things were created ginomai by dia him autos, and kai apart chōris from him autos not oude a single thing heis was created ginomai that hos has been created ginomai."

If you notice that little word "ho" in a few places in those verses, you will see that it means "the"....so "ho logos" means "the Word".
But please notice something that is not obvious in the English translation....In verse 1 it says that "the Word" was "with "ho theos" which means "the God" and also in verse 2.
The Greeks had no word for the singular God of Israel, because he had no name.....so they used the definite article (the, ho) to identify him.

The word "theos" in Greek simply means a god-like being. All of the Greek gods had names to identify them, but they were flawed characters, precocious, violent and licentious, unlike Israel's highly moral God, who was by then nameless, because the Jews had stopped saying the divine name out loud....instead, they just referred to God as "Adonai" (which means "Lord").

Why is this important? Because the second mention of "theos" in verse 1 is minus the definite article, meaning that "the Word" was god-like, but not "the God" ("ho theos") Its a small omission but it has far reaching implications for readers in the centuries to come, especially when the trinity was introduced into "the church" over 300 years after Jesus was executed.

There is not a single scripture written that makes God into a triune deity. The Jews did not believe in such a god (and still don't) and Jesus himself never mentioned that he was God incarnate......not even once. He only ever identified himself as "the son of God".....never as the equal of his God and Father.

So if we accept that Jesus is not actually God, but that he was sent by him (John 17:3).....we are not falling for a false doctrine that the devil created centuries ago to dishonor God and to breach the first Commandment. We have put another "god" in the place occupied by the Father.
Yahweh is one.....not three. (Deuteronomy 6:4)

That is the scriptural reason why I cannot subscribe to the trinity.

 

[Pearl]

He is also called an "only-begotten" son, (monogenes) which means that he was begotten before he was sent to earth to become a human. Those who are "begotten" need a "begetter"...someone who caused their existence.

If God could create the whole of the universe from nothing and man from dust then he is more than able to create a human baby in the womb of a human woman.

 

[Aunty Jane]

If God could create the whole of the universe from nothing and man from dust then he is more than able to create a human baby in the womb of a human woman.

Of course....but you have missed my point......that is not what “only begotten” means. The pre-human Jesus came down from heaven to willingly offer his human life for mankind.....but he was “begotten” as the first of God’s creation. (John 6:37-39)

Revelation 3:14....Jesus is called....
“...the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God”. (ASV)

Just two verses before this, Jesus says....
“He that overcometh, I will make him a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go out thence no more: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God, and mine own new name.” (Revelation 3:12 ASV)
This was well after Jesus returned to heaven.....and the Father is still his God. How can one part of God worship an equal part of himself...?

 

[Enoch111]

Jesus has always existed.

Correct. Always existed as the second Person of the Godhead -- God the Word or God the Son. If anyone refuses to believe that Jesus is in fact God, then that person has no hope of salvation. Jesus said "Before Abraham was I AM". Believe it.

 

[Pearl]

Of course....but you have missed my point......that is not what “only begotten” means. The pre-human Jesus came down from heaven to willingly off his human life for mankind.....but he was “begotten” as the first of God’s creation. (John 6:37-39)

I'm don't get what you mean. Begotten in human terms means bring (a child) into existence by the process of reproduction. God reproduced himself in the form of the child/man Jesus. He only reproduced himself once - so therefore Jesus is the only begotten son of God all the rest of us are adopted children but also heirs with Jesus who is no our brother.

 

[Aunty Jane]

I'm don't get what you mean. Begotten in human terms means bring (a child) into existence by the process of reproduction. God reproduced himself in the form of the child/man Jesus. He only reproduced himself once - so therefore Jesus is the only begotten son of God all the rest of us are adopted children but also heirs with Jesus who is no our brother.

“Only begotten” is “monogenes” in Greek and it means an “only child”, used in other scripture to describe other “only” children. It simply means a unique child. God described himself as a Father with sons, long before humans were created. He had “sons” shouting for joy at the creation of the material universe, (Job 38:4-7) so the relationship of Father to sons was not exclusive to humans. All of God’s angels are his “sons”. But none of them are like Jesus.
Jesus has “brothers” but nowhere is he said to have “sons”....because he is not God.

The very fact that God established that relationship before the creation of mankind, shows us that Jesus was “begotten” as the very first “son of God” and that this son was unique, in that he was the first and only direct creation of his Father. All creation thereafter came through the agency of this son, (Colossians 1:15-17) who has been with his Father from “the beginning”....which must be the beginning of creation because God (as an immortal and eternal Being) has no beginning or end.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Correct. Always existed as the second Person of the Godhead -- God the Word or God the Son. If anyone refuses to believe that Jesus is in fact God, then that person has no hope of salvation. Jesus said "Before Abraham was I AM". Believe it.

Either that, or people have been taken in by a satanic lie....a monumental blasphemy.

There is no such person mentioned in the Bible.....show us “God the Son” or “God the Holy Spirit” written in God’s word ....these terms were made up by “the RC church” to fit the trinity.

 

[kcnalp]

Predictable. Hence, the OP scope of discussion.

It is indeed predictable that I will site what God said, no matter how many are offended by the Bible.

 

[Pearl]

Either that, or people have been taken in by a satanic lie....a monumental blasphemy.

There is no such person mentioned in the Bible.....show us “God the Son” or “God the Holy Spirit” written in God’s word ....these terms were made up by “the RC church” to fit the trinity.

Again I'm not with you - that's the thing about these forums it's not always easy to understand each other when we aren't talking face to face.

I believe in the Trinity and I'm not Catholic. I believe in a Godhead with three separate personalities and I definitely believe that Jesus is God - Immanuel, God with us. And he allowed himself to be worshiped.

Then the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go. When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted. Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.” Matthew 28:16-20

 

[Aunty Jane]

Again I'm not with you - that's the thing about these forums it's not always easy to understand each other when we aren't talking face to face.

I have to agree with you there.....it is much easier to converse face to face, but never mind, all we can do is our best to communicate our thoughts.

I believe in the Trinity and I'm not Catholic. I believe in a Godhead with three separate personalities and I definitely believe that Jesus is God - Immanuel, God with us. And he allowed himself to be worshiped.

Did you know that the Bible does not contain the word "godhead"? That is a made-up word to suggest three gods living in one head....its disguised polytheism because there are three gods...."God the Father"...."God the Son"....and "God the Holy Spirit" which the KJV translated as "ghost" to suggest that it was a living third person of the trinity. The Holy Spirit is rarely mentioned in the Bible when Jesus speaks about his Father.
e.g. John 17:3, Jesus said in prayer to his Father....
"Now this is eternal life, that they should know you, the only true God, and the one whom you sent, Jesus Christ." (NABRE)
If eternal life is dependent on knowing God and Christ, where is the Holy Spirit? Why is he missing?
If these are three equal parts or persons in one god, then why does Jesus pray to an equal part of himself? Why does Jesus need authority from his equal self?

So many things just don't add up...like John 1:18...which is the one of the most mistranslated verses in the NT.
In the Greek Interlinear this is clearly demonstrated so as to suggest the trinity by adding words that are not there....

"No one oudeis has horaō ever pōpote seen horaō God theos. The only monogenēs Son , himself God theos..."

The ESV comes close but if you can see the highlighted portion above, that there are only two Greek words. "Monogenes theos" there but there are four words in the English translation.
"The only Son, himself [God]" is missing from the Greek but inserted into the English to give the appearance of a trinity.
"Monogenes theos", correctly translated means "only-begotten God". Why do trinitarians shy away from rendering this correctly? Because it is saying that God is "begotten" and they know that is impossible.

And apart from that, the very first part of the verse says...
"No one has ever seen God." How many people saw Jesus?

So if John 1:18 translates "theos" as "son" then it should also translate it "son" in John 1:1. Which would mean that the Word who became flesh was "the son".

There is so much hidden from people who are fed these lies for centuries. They then become truth and the true God is lost.

Then the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go. When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted. Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.” Matthew 28:16-20

The apostles did not worship Jesus.....this is another word grossly mistranslated by trinitarian bias. Most Hebrew and Greek words that can denote worship can also be applied to acts other than worship.....like obeisance or the act of bowing in respect. However, the context determines in what way the respective words are to be understood.

e.g what Abraham did to the angels who came to him at Mamre.....he "bowed with his face to the earth." (Genesis 18:2) That was obeisance, not worship.
When Jacob came face to face with Esau and was unsure of how his brother would respond...(Genesis 33:1-6) He bowed seven times....again same word, but not worship.

The word in Greek also has the same connotation.....to bow in reverence to an important personage, or to bow in worship to God.
The magi who came to offer gifts to Jesus rendered obeisance as to a new King....they did not believe that he was a god to be worshipped.

"Pro·sky·neʹo" only means worship when it is rendered to God, not to a human, which Jesus was. No Jew would ever have rendered worship to a man. The apostles knew that Jesus was the "son of God" but never did they worship him as God. They knew God as "the Father". (1 Corinthians 8:5-6) Jesus was their "Lord", (Master) not their God.

And if Jesus needed "all authority" from God to rule over heaven and earth, it had to be "given" to him because he did not have it already.

From my studies of the Bible, there is no way that, correctly translated and understood, God's word supports a trinity.

 

[Wrangler]

From my studies of the Bible, there is no way that, correctly translated and understood, God's word supports a trinity.

I floored an 86-year old trinitarian over the weekend by asking him to read Rev 1:1.

When he got to the word God I told him to stop. The resurrected Jesus in heaven was given a revelation by God. You have to be devoted to a doctrine antithetical to the word of God to still claim Jesus is God.

The man who read Rev 1:1 has his eyes opened for the first time. It is in plain language over and over and over again throughout Scripture that there is one God who alone is the Father.

In trinity world, there has yet to be resurrected into a glorified body a man who is only a man - the very heart of the Good News! Proof of the glorious fate that awaits all of God’s children.

 

[dev553344]

Using standard language usage and keeping 2 COR 1:13, in mind, (there is no hidden meaning in our letters) the inescapable conclusion or take away from the verse below is yes. Based on this verse, if you conclude the answer is no, what reading skills, logic and definitions supports that conclusion?

To re-iterate, this thread is only studying one verse, Acts 17:31. If you recognize the answer is affirmative, you have to ask yourself, in keeping 2 COR 1:13 in mind, why would there be such a verse in Scripture worded like this?


He has fixed a day of accountability, when the whole world will be justly evaluated by a new, higher standard: not by a statue, but by a living man. God selected this man and made Him credible to all by raising Him from the dead.
Acts 17:31 (Voice)

I disagree with the title of this thread. Jesus is God's only begotten son. Does that mean he selected him? Perhaps in a way he selected him. But that is beside the point. Jesus was the word from the beginning. The only selection made was to sacrifice him. He was already God from before creation.

 

[Enoch111]

Either that, or people have been taken in by a satanic lie....a monumental blasphemy.

Looks like a minion of Satan is the one speaking blasphemy against the triune Godhead.

 

[Helen]

No absolute truth? Everything God and Jesus are quoted as saying is absolute truth. For that matter, I think the history in the Bible is truthful.

But, the trouble is …each person has their own “absolute truth” …we have all taken verses and filtered them through our own personal belief systems . Just because we each believe things “as we see them” it does not prove that we are right in what we believe.

Stay humble and teachable , and the Holy Sprit will lead us into all truth.

Jesus alone IS The absolute Truth …. Blessings …H

 

[Wrangler]

Does that mean he selected him? Perhaps in a way he selected him. But that is beside the point. Jesus was the word from the beginning.

The idea that a man God selected is not perhaps but an explicit teaching in Scripture. That Jesus was the word from the beginning is not an explicit teaching in Scripture but a trinitarian imposition onto unitarian text. See Duet 18:15-18. God put his words into Jesus.

Perhaps God planned to do this from the beginning but in no way does that make Jesus any more God than he planned Moses to part the Red Sea from the beginning, makes Moses God.

 

[Helen]

The idea that a man God selected is not perhaps but an explicit teaching in Scripture. That Jesus was the word from the beginning is not an explicit teaching in Scripture but a trinitarian imposition onto unitarian text. See Duet 18:15-18. God put his words into Jesus.

Perhaps God planned to do this from the beginning but in no way does that make Jesus any more God than he planned Moses to part the Red Sea from the beginning, makes Moses God.

sorry…but you do talk a load of codswallup, and gobbledegook.

 

[Wrangler]

sorry…but you do talk a load of codswallup, and gobbledegook.

I imagine that’s what straight forward thinking - based on logic, definition & language usage - sounds like to trinitarians.

The text reads ‘God selected the man Jesus.’ Simple but undermining doctrine not contained in Scripture. Therefore, it has to be codswallup, and gobbledegook. The verse actually means something totally different, according to trinitarianism.

 

[bbyrd009]

No absolute truth?

oh, i dunno, strikes me as an open question; and i didnt mean that as a statement

Everything God and Jesus are quoted as saying is absolute truth.

not disagreeing necessarily, but Their sayings tend to be open to interpretation? And “absolute truth” implies that everyone agrees

For that matter, I think the history in the Bible is truthful.

 

[marks]

And “absolute truth” implies that everyone agrees

Truth is by common agreement?

Much love!

 

[Truman]

Father, Holy Spirit, Son; I know the Lord our God is One!
He showed me this to be true...ask Him, He may show you too!