Is Jesus God

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TonyChanYT

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Jesus healed a man (B1) born blind in John 9:

35 Jesus heard that they [the Pharisees] had cast him [B1] out, and having found him he said, “Do you believe in the Son of Man?” 36He answered, “And who is he, sir, that I may believe in him?” 37Jesus said to him, “You have seen him, and it is he who is speaking to you.” 38He said, “Lord, I believe,” and he worshiped him.
B1 thought Jesus was God.

Paul thought Jesus was God, Romans 9:

5 Theirs are the patriarchs, and from them proceeds the human descent of Christ, who is God over all, forever worthy of praise! Amen.
Is Jesus = God?

The equal sign carries mathematical import. In some sense, this is true; in some other sense, it is not. It is better to stick to the wording of the Bible and not to over-generalize. God (or Godhead) is a complex concept in the Bible. God and Jesus are distinct manifestations.

Jesus says in Luke‬ ‭8:

39‬ "Return to your home, and declare how much God has done for you." And he went away, proclaiming throughout the whole city how much Jesus had done for him.
The above is a significant parallel between God and Jesus.

The church obtained by Jesus is the church of God in Acts 20:

28 Pay careful attention to yourselves and to all the flock, in which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to care for the church of God, which he obtained with his own blood.
Paul describes some bodily mechanics in Colossians 1:

19 For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him [Jesus]
Colossians 2:

9 For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form,
Titus 2:

13 [We are] waiting for our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ.
The phrase could refer to one or two entities. Either way is fine.

2 Peter 1 echoes the same concept:

1 Simon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who through the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ have received a faith as precious as ours:
Christ is God.

John agrees. The Lord God says in Rev 1:

8 “I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, who is and was and is to come—the Almighty.
Jesus says in Rev 22:

12 “Behold, I am coming soon, and My reward is with Me, to give to each one according to what he has done. 13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.”
Both the Lord God and Jesus have the title "the Alpha and the Omega".

How can a man be God?

Numbers 23:

19a God is not man, that he should lie, or a son of man, that he should change his mind.
Let statement H = ∀h, if h is a human, then h is not God.

One can produce logical proofs/evidences that Jesus was a human because Jesus was born a man. But then we cannot apply H to Jesus. Jesus is the unique exception to that rule.

At the same time, one can also find logical proofs that Jesus is God because he is.

How do I resolve the issue?

I look at two sets of proofs/evidences/arguments:

  1. Jesus is God.
  2. Jesus is not God, ignoring the ones that merely prove that Jesus was a man.
I assign a weight to each argument in the two sets according to this weighting scheme: I overweight direct statements over implied conclusions. I overweight simple arguments over complicated ones.

So far, according to my weighting, Jesus is God comfortably outweighs the opposite.

BTW, I have not heard of proof of "Jesus is not God" that I didn't already know ten years ago, i.e., in the last ten years, I haven't heard anything new concerning Jesus is not God.

Next, is Jesus the Son of God?

John 10:

36 do you say of him whom the Father consecrated and sent into the world, ‘You are blaspheming,’ because I said, ‘I am the Son of God’?
Jesus claims that he is the Son of God.

How can Jesus be both God and Son of God?

With humans, that is impossible, but not with God. Jesus continued:

38b "even though you do not believe me, believe the works, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me and I am in the Father.”
Yes, this is a first-order logical mystery. By faith, I believe that Jesus is God and Jesus is the Son of God. It is a mysterious divine nature/attribute.

See also

 
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1stCenturyLady

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Jesus healed a man (B1) born blind in John 9:


B1 thought Jesus was God.

Paul thought Jesus was God, Romans 9:


Is Jesus = God?

The equal sign carries mathematical import. In some sense, this is true; in some other sense, it is not. It is better to stick to the wording of the Bible and not to over-generalize. God (or Godhead) is a complex concept in the Bible. God and Jesus are distinct manifestations.

Jesus says in Luke‬ ‭8:


The above is a significant parallel between God and Jesus.

The church obtained by Jesus is the church of God in Acts 20:


Paul describes some bodily mechanics in Colossians 1:


Colossians 2:


Titus 2:


The phrase could refer to one or two entities. Either way is fine.

2 Peter 1 echoes the same concept:


Christ is God.

John agrees. The Lord God says in Rev 1:


Jesus says in Rev 22:


Both the Lord God and Jesus have the title "the Alpha and the Omega".

How can a man be God?

Numbers 23:


Let statement H = ∀h, if h is a human, then h is not God.

One can produce logical proofs/evidences that Jesus was a human because Jesus was born a man. But then we cannot apply H to Jesus. Jesus is the unique exception to that rule.

At the same time, one can also find logical proofs that Jesus is God because he is.

How do I resolve the issue?

I look at two sets of proofs/evidences/arguments:

  1. Jesus is God.
  2. Jesus is not God, ignoring the ones that merely prove that Jesus was a man.
I assign a weight to each argument in the two sets according to this weighting scheme: I overweight direct statements over implied conclusions. I overweight simple arguments over complicated ones.

So far, according to my weighting, Jesus is God comfortably outweighs the opposite.

BTW, I have not heard of proof of "Jesus is not God" that I didn't already know ten years ago, i.e., in the last ten years, I haven't heard anything new concerning Jesus is not God.

Next, is Jesus the Son of God?

John 10:


Jesus claims that he is the Son of God.

How can Jesus be both God and Son of God?

With humans, that is impossible, but not with God. Jesus continued:


Yes, this is a first-order logical mystery. By faith, I believe that Jesus is God and Jesus is the Son of God. It is a mysterious divine nature/attribute.

See also

Like you, my two go-to verses are Titus 2:13 " looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ,

and the other one is 2 Peter 1:1 To those who have obtained like precious faith with us by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ.

Everyone memorize these two texts. I've memorized the verse in Titus as having one of Los Angeles' phone number prefix 213, and adding the first verse to my already favorite passage of supernatural power of God, from 2 Peter 1:2-11 to 2 Peter 1:1-11. Now that is even easier to memorize.
 

WalterandDebbie

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Like you, my two go-to verses are Titus 2:13 " looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ,

and the other one is 2 Peter 1:1 To those who have obtained like precious faith with us by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ.

Everyone memorize these two texts. I've memorized the verse in Titus as having one of Los Angeles' phone number prefix 213, and adding the first verse to my already favorite passage of supernatural power of God, from 2 Peter 1:2-11 to 2 Peter 1:1-11. Now that is even easier to memorize.
Hello 1stCenturyLady, And how are you all? When Jesus Said That GOD Is a Spirit, What Was He Talking About?

Love, Walter
 

1stCenturyLady

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Hello 1stCenturyLady, And how are you all? When Jesus Said That GOD Is a Spirit, What Was He Talking About?

Love, Walter
Col. 2:8 Beware lest anyone cheat you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the tradition of men, according to the basic principles of the world, and not according to Christ. 9 For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily; 10 and you are complete in Him, who is the head of all principality and power.

In other words, God is everywhere. They are invisible to us. This is how They are omnipresent, omniscient, and omnipresent. Those glories are what the Word emptied Himself of to become flesh and die for us. They are also what Jesus prayed to the Father for in John 17 "I have finished the work which You have given Me to do. 5 And now, O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.

Psalms 139:
7 Where can I go from Your Spirit?
Or where can I flee from Your presence?
8 If I ascend into heaven, You are there;
If I make my bed in hell, behold, You are there.
9 If I take the wings of the morning,
And dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea,
10 Even there Your hand shall lead me,
And Your right hand shall hold me.
 
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tigger 2

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Like you, my two go-to verses are Titus 2:13 " looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ,

and the other one is 2 Peter 1:1 To those who have obtained like precious faith with us by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ.

Everyone memorize these two texts. I've memorized the verse in Titus as having one of Los Angeles' phone number prefix 213, and adding the first verse to my already favorite passage of supernatural power of God, from 2 Peter 1:2-11 to 2 Peter 1:1-11. Now that is even easier to memorize.
.................................................

'Sharp's Rule' Primer (part 1)​


In an attempt to prove the trinity doctrine, Granville Sharp made up a rule in 1798. It is often called "Sharp's Rule" by trinitarians. It says, in effect, that when two or more words (nouns) in the original Greek New Testament (NT) text are joined by the word "and," they all refer to the same person if the word "the" (the article) comes before the first noun and not before the other noun(s).
For example, if we saw "the king and _master of the slave" in the Greek text of the Bible, it would always mean, according to Sharp, that only one person was being called both "king" and "master." ("King" and "master" are joined by "and" - - only "king" has the article.)
Sharp invented this rule after he noticed this particular construction (sometimes called a "Sharp's construction") was used with "God" and "Christ" in 5 places in the NT. If he could convince others that his "rule" was true, then they would think there was finally (after 1400 years of a "trinity" tradition) absolute grammatical Bible proof (see WALLACE study) that God and Jesus are the same "person"!

The 5 "proofs" of Jesus' Godhood according to Sharp himself are (in the literal wording of the original manuscripts):
(a) Titus 2:13: "of the great God and savior of us Christ Jesus"
τοῦ μεγάλου θεοῦ καὶ σωτῆρος ἡμῶν Χριστοῦ Ἰησοῦ
(b) 2 Pet. 1:1: "righteousness of the God of us and savior Jesus Christ"
δικαιοσύνῃ τοῦ θεοῦ ἡμῶν καὶ σωτῆρος Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ
(c) 2 Thess. 1:12:"the grace of the God of us and Lord Jesus Christ"
τὴν χάριν τοῦ θεοῦ ἡμῶν καὶ κυρίου Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ
(d) 1 Tim. 5:21: "in sight of the God and Christ Jesus and the chosen angels"
ἐνώπιον τοῦ θεοῦ καὶ Χριστοῦ Ἰησοῦ καὶ τῶν ἐκλεκτῶν ἀγγέλων
(e) Eph. 5:5: "...in the kingdom of the Christ and God"
ἐν τῇ βασιλείᾳ τοῦ Χριστοῦ καὶ θεοῦ

Since the first noun ("God" in the first four scriptures) has the article ("the") with it and the following noun ("savior" in the first two scriptures) does not have the article ("the"), then (according to Sharp) God and Christ (the savior, etc.) are the same person!
There are a number of reasons why Sharp's Rule, as applied to these 5 "proofs," is invalid (See the SHARP study). One important strike against it is the fact that even many respected trinitarian NT grammar experts and translators have rejected it as a valid rule - e.g., see G. B. Winer; J. H. Moulton; C. F. D. Moule; Dr. James Moffatt (see Titus 2:13; and 1 Tim. 5:21); Dr. William Barclay (2 Thess. 1:12); and Roman Catholic scholar Karl Rahner (2 Peter 1:1).

In vol. 5, p. 257 the respected The Expositor's Greek Testament says: "In the present case [Jude 1:4], however, the second noun (kupiov [“lord”]) belongs to the class of words which may stand without the article .... A similar doubtful case is found in Tit. ii. 13.... Other examples of the same kind are Eph. v. 5 ... 2 Thess. i: 12 ... 1 Tim. v. 21 (cf. 2 Tim. iv. 1) ... 2 Peter i. 1."

For example, examine the following trinitarian Bible's renderings of these "Sharp's Constructions":
2 Thess. 1:12 - KJV; KJIIV; NASB; NAB (1970); MLB; LB; GNB; RSV; NRSV; NIV.
Eph. 5:5 - KJV; KJIIV; RSV; NRSV; LB; MLB; NIV; NEB; REB; GNB; TEV; NAB (`70,'91).
2 Tim. 4:1 - most trinitarian Bibles.
1 Tim. 6:13 - all trinitarian Bibles.
These many respected Bibles, translated by expert trinitarian New Testament scholars, clearly disregard Sharp's "Rule" at these (and other) places and show two persons being spoken of!

Notice Eph. 5:5, for example. Most trinitarian Bibles translate this example of Sharp's Construction: "in the kingdom of Christ and of God" - KJV; NRSV; RSV; NIV; NEB; REB; NAB; Douay; MLB; LB; GNB; TEV; The Amplified Bible; Third Millenium Bible; New Living Translation; New Century Version; God's Word; Holman Christian Standard Bible; Wesley's New Testament; Phillips; and the Webster Bible. This is not the way it would be translated if the two descriptions were of the same person! (At the very least it would be rendered more literally as "the kingdom of the Christ and God.") Instead it clearly shows two persons!

Even noted trinitarian scholar Murray J. Harris notes, in discussing Eph. 5:5, that “It is highly improbable that Paul would introduce a profound, unqualified doctrinal affirmation (Christ is theos) in an incidental manner [such as here], in a context where the assertion is not crucial to the flow of argument.” - p. 262, Jesus as God, Baker Book House, 1992.

Also, 1 Tim. 6:13 is translated in trinitarian Bibles as: "before (in the sight or presence of) God ... and before Christ Jesus...". Although Sharp's Rule insists that this should be translated to show that it is speaking of the same person, it obviously is not! Most trinitarian grammar experts simply do not believe Sharp's Rule is a valid absolute rule!
Of the many reasons invalidating Sharp's Rule grammatically there are at least two of extreme importance - each of which is conclusive by itself.
(1) Prepositional Constructions (with phrases containing prepositions: "of God;" "in the Lord;" "God of...;" etc.) are known by NT grammarians to cause uncertainty of article usage. That is, if a prepositional phrase (including genitives) is attached to a word, that word may sometimes have the article ("the") and sometimes not have it -- without changing the intended meaning! (See A. T. Robertson, pp. 780, 790, 791; C. F. D. Moule, p. 117; J. H. Moulton, pp. 175, 179-180; et al.) This means that the NT writers sometimes wrote, for example, "The God of me" (with article) and "_God of me" (without article) with exactly the same intended meaning. The definite article ("the") was ambiguous in such cases.

Therefore any grammatical rules which depend on the presence or absence of the article in the NT Greek must not use as examples those scriptures which use a 'prepositional' construction attached to a word (noun) in question if they are to be used honestly and properly.
But if you examine the 5 trinitarian "proofs" above, you will see that they all use such prepositional constructions: "of us" in (a) Titus 2:13 and (b) 2 Peter 1:1 is a "prepositional" genitive, and even "savior" itself is a genitive in both scriptures and literally means "of savior;" "Lord" in (c) 2 Thess. 1:12 is a genitive and literally means "of Lord" (as rendered in the Modern Language Bible; Living Bible; Good News Bible; Douay Version; New American Bible [1970 ed.]; and Barclay's Daily Study Bible); "Christ" in (d)1 Tim. 5:21 is a genitive and literally means "of Christ" (as in the Good News Bible [and TEV]; New American Standard Bible; Modern Language Bible; Revised Standard Version; and New Revised Standard Version); and "God" in (e) Eph. 5:5 is a genitive and literally means "of God" (as in the King James Version; Revised Standard Version; New Revised Standard Version; Living Bible; New English Bible; Revised English Bible; Modern Language Bible; New American Bible (1970 and 1991); Douay Version; New International Version; Good News Bible; and Phillips translation).
 

tigger 2

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.................................................

'Sharp's Rule' Primer (part2)​


(2) New Testament scholars, including noted trinitarian NT grammar experts, point out that the use of proper names ("John," "Moses," "Jesus," etc.) also causes uncertain article usage in NT Greek. (A. T. Robertson, Grammar, p. 791, and Word Pictures, p. 46, Vol. iv; C. F. D. Moule, p. 115; J. H. Moulton [Turner], Vol. 3, pp. 165-167; et. al.)

So not only did the NT Bible writers sometimes use the article and sometimes not use the article with the very same intended meaning with the very same proper name (e.g. "the James" and "James"), but even when a proper name is used as an appositive it also causes irregular article usage with the other associated nouns. - Robertson, pp. 760, 791.
For example, when "Jesus" and "Christ" are in apposition to each other ("Jesus Christ" or "Christ Jesus"), they are nearly always (96% of the time - see SHARP study) written without the definite article in the writings of Paul regardless of "Sharp's rule" or any other grammatical/syntactical consideration!
If we examine the first 4 of the 5 "proofs" above, we see that the proper name "Jesus" is used as an appositive with the word in question in each case! In other words, "Christ Jesus" is the appositive for "savior" in Titus 2:13. This means sometimes "savior" will have "the" with it in such a situation and sometimes it won't (with no change in meaning). "Jesus Christ" is the appositive for "savior" in 2 Peter 1:1, and article usage (or non-usage) with "savior" in the original NT Greek in such circumstances is virtually meaningless. "Jesus Christ" is in apposition to (an appositive for) "Lord" in 2 Thess. 1:12. And "Jesus" is in apposition (at least) to "Christ" in 1 Tim. 5:21. These examples, therefore, are completely invalid as evidence for Jesus being God even if there were actually some validity to Sharp's "Rule" with proper examples! And the 5th example, Eph. 5:5, is incredibly poor in context alone. Even noted trinitarian scholar A.T. Robertson has to admit that the 'evidence' of Eph. 5:5 is doubtful - Word Pictures, Vol. 4, pp. 46 and 543. No objective person could accept it alone as real evidence of Jesus' Godhood!

Some PREPOSITIONAL examples found in NT Greek:
"The God of Abraham and _God of Isaac and _God of Jacob" - Luke 20:37.
"The God of Abraham and the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob" - Matt. 22:32.
"James, _slave of God and _Lord Jesus Christ" - James 1:1
"By command of _God savior of us and _Christ Jesus" - 1 Tim. 1:1.
"I am the root and the offspring of David" - Rev. 22:16.

Some PROPER NAME examples found in NT Greek:
"having seen _Peter and _John" (no articles) - Acts 3:3.
"holding fast ... the Peter and the John" (both articles) - Acts 3:11.
"beholding the outspokenness of the Peter and _John" (Sharp's) - Acts 4:13.
"But the Peter and _John" (Sharp's construction) - Acts 4:19.
So we see the Bible writer who is recognized as the most knowledgeable in NT Greek (Luke) showing the great ambiguity of article usage with proper names. If we did not exclude proper names as valid examples, we would have to agree that either Luke believed Peter and John were the same person or that he was completely unaware of Sharp's Rule (or any first century equivalent)!
* * * * *
So, although we can find such constructions as "the king and master of the slave" where the first noun (with the definite article, `the') is the same person as the second noun (without the definite article), there is no grammatical reason that this must always be so. Such constructions as "the boy and girl" and "the President and Vice President" (found in Amendment XX [as ratified in 1933] of the Constitution of the United States of America), which refer to more than one individual, are just as grammatically correct in both English and NT Greek.
* * * * * *
Note: Although Watchtower Society (WTS) research and scholarship is usually at least the equal of (and often superior to) that of other sources, I have tried to rely most heavily on other sources in Christendom itself (preferably trinitarian) or my own independent research to provide evidence disproving the trinitarian `proof' being examined in this paper. The reason is, of course, that this paper is meant to provide evidence needed by non-Witnesses, and many of them will not accept anything written by the WTS. They truly believe it is false, even dishonest. Therefore some of the preceding information, all of which helps disprove specific trinitarian "proofs," may be in disagreement with current WTS teachings in some specifics (especially when I have presented a number of alternates). Jehovah's Witnesses should research the most recent WTS literature on the subject or scripture in question before using this information with others. - T2.
 

Bob Estey

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Jesus healed a man (B1) born blind in John 9:


B1 thought Jesus was God.

Paul thought Jesus was God, Romans 9:


Is Jesus = God?

The equal sign carries mathematical import. In some sense, this is true; in some other sense, it is not. It is better to stick to the wording of the Bible and not to over-generalize. God (or Godhead) is a complex concept in the Bible. God and Jesus are distinct manifestations.

Jesus says in Luke‬ ‭8:


The above is a significant parallel between God and Jesus.

The church obtained by Jesus is the church of God in Acts 20:


Paul describes some bodily mechanics in Colossians 1:


Colossians 2:


Titus 2:


The phrase could refer to one or two entities. Either way is fine.

2 Peter 1 echoes the same concept:


Christ is God.

John agrees. The Lord God says in Rev 1:


Jesus says in Rev 22:


Both the Lord God and Jesus have the title "the Alpha and the Omega".

How can a man be God?

Numbers 23:


Let statement H = ∀h, if h is a human, then h is not God.

One can produce logical proofs/evidences that Jesus was a human because Jesus was born a man. But then we cannot apply H to Jesus. Jesus is the unique exception to that rule.

At the same time, one can also find logical proofs that Jesus is God because he is.

How do I resolve the issue?

I look at two sets of proofs/evidences/arguments:

  1. Jesus is God.
  2. Jesus is not God, ignoring the ones that merely prove that Jesus was a man.
I assign a weight to each argument in the two sets according to this weighting scheme: I overweight direct statements over implied conclusions. I overweight simple arguments over complicated ones.

So far, according to my weighting, Jesus is God comfortably outweighs the opposite.

BTW, I have not heard of proof of "Jesus is not God" that I didn't already know ten years ago, i.e., in the last ten years, I haven't heard anything new concerning Jesus is not God.

Next, is Jesus the Son of God?

John 10:


Jesus claims that he is the Son of God.

How can Jesus be both God and Son of God?

With humans, that is impossible, but not with God. Jesus continued:


Yes, this is a first-order logical mystery. By faith, I believe that Jesus is God and Jesus is the Son of God. It is a mysterious divine nature/attribute.

See also

I believe Jesus is God in flesh. A case can be made that he is the Son of God, perhaps.
 

ElieG12

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If Jesus and his followers taught that he is the Son of God, it is because GOD is the Father of Jesus, not Jesus...

The same applies to the titles "high priest of God", "Christ of God", "servant of God", etc... Same as the expressions "God raised him up", "God was with him ", "God sent him", etc.

For some obscure reason, the mind of Trinitarians does not reason correctly.
 

WalterandDebbie

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If Jesus and his followers taught that he is the Son of God, it is because GOD is the Father of Jesus, not Jesus...

The same applies to the titles "high priest of God", "Christ of God", "servant of God", etc... Same as the expressions "God raised him up", "God was with him ", "God sent him", etc.

For some obscure reason, the mind of Trinitarians does not reason correctly.
Hello ElleG12, Let me ask you, if I may, for what reason are making this statement? The only reason I'm asking is because we have been studying this issue and we find that ever since Jesus even said that GOD is a Spirit, but what are your views? which is what you have said? but what I'm saying is, that GOD was IN Christ reconciling the world unto himself.
 
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