Is Obedience a Condition of Salvation?
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You conflate one's faults with willful sin. Your doctrine stinks to high Heaven.
James 5
[19] Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him;
[20] Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.
ChristisGod
Well-Known Member
Are you saying Peters hypocrisy was not willful ?
Galatians 2:11-21
When Cephas came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he stood condemned. 12 For before certain men came from James, he used to eat with the Gentiles. But when they arrived, he began to draw back and separate himself from the Gentiles because he was afraid of those who belonged to the circumcision group. 13 The other Jews joined him in his hypocrisy, so that by their hypocrisy even Barnabas was led astray.
14 When I saw that they were not acting in line with the truth of the gospel, I said to Cephas in front of them all, “You are a Jew, yet you live like a Gentile and not like a Jew. How is it, then, that you force Gentiles to follow Jewish customs?
15 “We who are Jews by birth and not sinful Gentiles 16 know that a person is not justified by the works of the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law, because by the works of the law no one will be justified.
17 “But if, in seeking to be justified in Christ, we Jews find ourselves also among the sinners, doesn’t that mean that Christ promotes sin? Absolutely not! 18 If I rebuild what I destroyed, then I really would be a lawbreaker.
19 “For through the law I died to the law so that I might live for God. 20 I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I now live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. 21 I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing!”
hope this helps !!!
Christians have faults that God works on as we grow in the knowledge of the Lord, but don't conflate that with willful sin.
James 5
[16] Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.
ChristisGod
Well-Known Member
Agreed yet Peter was a spirit filled believer, an Apostle and the leader of the 12. We cannot make an excuse for his sins while we condemn others wouldn't you agree ?
I call it a fault, perhaps a lack of knowledge or ignorance, but not willful sin. A sinner willfully sins, but not a Saint. The Saints stand with their God when temptation comes knocking.
Here's the judgement on willful sin.
Acts 5
[1] But a certain man named Ananias, with Sapphira his wife, sold a possession,
[2] And kept back part of the price, his wife also being privy to it, and brought a certain part, and laid it at the apostles' feet.
[3] But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land?
[4] Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God.
[5] And Ananias hearing these words fell down, and gave up the ghost: and great fear came on all them that heard these things.
[6] And the young men arose, wound him up, and carried him out, and buried him.
[7] And it was about the space of three hours after, when his wife, not knowing what was done, came in.
[8] And Peter answered unto her, Tell me whether ye sold the land for so much? And she said, Yea, for so much.
[9] Then Peter said unto her, How is it that ye have agreed together to tempt the Spirit of the Lord? behold, the feet of them which have buried thy husband are at the door, and shall carry thee out.
[10] Then fell she down straightway at his feet, and yielded up the ghost: and the young men came in, and found her dead, and, carrying her forth, buried her by her husband.
[11] And great fear came upon all the church, and upon as many as heard these things.
Acts 5
[1] But a certain man named Ananias, with Sapphira his wife, sold a possession,
[2] And kept back part of the price, his wife also being privy to it, and brought a certain part, and laid it at the apostles' feet.
[3] But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land?
[4] Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God.
[5] And Ananias hearing these words fell down, and gave up the ghost: and great fear came on all them that heard these things.
[6] And the young men arose, wound him up, and carried him out, and buried him.
[7] And it was about the space of three hours after, when his wife, not knowing what was done, came in.
[8] And Peter answered unto her, Tell me whether ye sold the land for so much? And she said, Yea, for so much.
[9] Then Peter said unto her, How is it that ye have agreed together to tempt the Spirit of the Lord? behold, the feet of them which have buried thy husband are at the door, and shall carry thee out.
[10] Then fell she down straightway at his feet, and yielded up the ghost: and the young men came in, and found her dead, and, carrying her forth, buried her by her husband.
[11] And great fear came upon all the church, and upon as many as heard these things.
ChristisGod
Well-Known Member
How could Peter unwilfully be a hypocrite ? That makes no sense.
If I preach against fornication yet practice it behind the scenes is that not being a willful act ?
Paul sure knew what he was doing and confronted him on his sin.
ChristisGod
Well-Known Member
You are making my point. Being a hypocrite is living a lie. It is lying to others and to yourself. It is a double minded man.
The kjv renders it that "he was to be blamed".
How could Peter have been condemned? Do you not know what is written in John 5:24 (kjv)?
There are very real contradictions in your Bible.
In all of the kjv, I have found only one.
In the passage where many teach that Peter sinned (in Galatians), it should be clear that Peter's sin was against the gospel that Paul was preaching to the Gentiles; while Paul himself, in Romans 14:1-Romans 15:1, taught that Peter was even justified in his behaviour towards the Jews in that instance.
For Peter was obeying that scripture in that he was being sensitive to the consciences of the Jewish people who had come to be present in that situation.
Also 1 Corinthians 8.
For Peter was obeying that scripture in that he was being sensitive to the consciences of the Jewish people who had come to be present in that situation.
Also 1 Corinthians 8.
quietthinker
Well-Known Member
Is Obedience a Condition of Salvation?
This is no mystery.....we are subjects of the one we obey.
The paradox:- Satan while in process of suicide wants to live forever.
As I see it, God's government operates on the basis of cause and effect.....you eat, you die. There are countless examples of this principle in the scriptures.
The deception:- You can live forever while transgressing the principles of life.
This is no mystery.....we are subjects of the one we obey.
The paradox:- Satan while in process of suicide wants to live forever.
As I see it, God's government operates on the basis of cause and effect.....you eat, you die. There are countless examples of this principle in the scriptures.
The deception:- You can live forever while transgressing the principles of life.
So then I can break all the Commandments as 'no man can keep it', as you say. I see a flaw in that...Hello Hobie
I've often wondered at that as well. I wonder if it could have something to do with the fact that all Jews as well as Christ, were still under the law as, Christ had not died and risen yet? As we know, He came to fulfill the law because no human could ever keep and fulfill all of the law. Don't you ever wonder what this rich man thought when Christ rose from the grave? And, when he heard the gospel, perhaps he understood a bit more? Really don't know the answer but, we should certainly and naturally desire to keep His law, and learn to hate sin as He does.
So, IMO...we don't "keep the law" for salvation itself, as that would do away with what Christ had already done - He "fulfilled" the law that no man could keep. He did it for us!
Nancy
Well-Known Member
NO not at all! The law does not save you, because as you said "no man can keep it, which is true. We can only have faith in Christ, our Lord and Savior. It's all grace, a heart matter. What you seem to overlook is that we have a new High Priest in Jesus
Which would then change the Law...right?"11Now if perfection could have been attained through the Levitical priesthood (for on this basis the people received the law), why was there still need for another priest to appear—one in the order of Melchizedek and not in the order of Aaron? 12 For when the priesthood is changed, the law must be changed as well. "
Jesus did not only die for our sins, He also opened the way to The Father! You know this stuff, don't you??
"Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holy place by the blood of Jesus, by the way which he dedicated for us, a new and living way, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh; and having a great priest over the house of God; let us draw near with a true heart in fulness of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our body washed with pure water."—Hebrews 10:19-22.
So
So do you keep the 10 Commandments as Jesus asks of those that truly love Him?NO not at all! The law does not save you, because as you said "no man can keep it, which is true. We can only have faith in Christ, our Lord and Savior. It's all grace, a heart matter. What you seem to overlook is that we have a new High Priest in Jesus
"11Now if perfection could have been attained through the Levitical priesthood (for on this basis the people received the law), why was there still need for another priest to appear—one in the order of Melchizedek and not in the order of Aaron? 12 For when the priesthood is changed, the law must be changed as well. "
Jesus did not only die for our sins, He also opened the way to The Father! You know this stuff, don't you??
"Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holy place by the blood of Jesus, by the way which he dedicated for us, a new and living way, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh; and having a great priest over the house of God; let us draw near with a true heart in fulness of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our body washed with pure water."—Hebrews 10:19-22.
Nancy
Well-Known Member
I wish. Sinless perfectionists would say that I wasn't saved if I still fell into things like impatience or, frustration resulting in anger, at myself but that does not matter, curse words can come from my mouth when it gets that bad. Nothing like it used to be, even just last year.
So, does that mean I do not love Him? As, loving God with all your heart, soul, mind and strength would mean you "obey" Him, "all the time"...Do you?
Randy Kluth
Well-Known Member
I continue to see a misunderstanding of "Law" as a concept in Christianity. Some Christians believe we are "under the 10 Commandments." Some believe we are under no principle of Law at all, since we are saved not by our own works, but by grace.
The truth be told, whatever Jesus said about Law while Jews were still under the Law of Moses pertained to that system, and not to the NT system. They had to keep the total body of the Law of Moses, temple, priest, and sacrifice, as well as food laws and the laws of Sabbath.
But today we are under the NT system, though that does not place us outside of Law. We are not told things by Jesus under the Law of Moses, but we are still under the commandments he gives us under the NT system.
What Law is that? We are told to abide in him, to carry out his requirement that we love God supremely and love others as ourselves. This is unadulterated Law, though it is not under the OT Law.
We are not saved by keeping Christ's commandments, but only by adhering to his requirement that we abide in him--both him and his Law. Without him, who is the essence of our atonement for sin, all the obedience in the world would be nil. But if we abide in him, we abide in his Law, as well. To choose him is to choose his righteousness.
Obedience is the fruit of Salvation, evidence of the Sanctification of the Spirit 1 Pet 1:1-2
Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,
2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,
2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
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