Is pre-tribulation rapture a doctrine of demons?

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marks

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It isn't a matter of creating a prophetic map, replete with various Scriptures fitting in here or there.
Yet you have nonetheless created your own map, with how things fit together, have you not?

Much love!
 

Randy Kluth

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So then the sheep/goats is more parable to you? Is that the idea?

Much love!

No, it's just a very general statement of what will happen, rather than a detailed explanation. Christ will set up his Kingdom, and those who had lived, whether good or bad, will be appropriately placed, either in his Kingdom or outside of it.
 

marks

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Generally speaking, all the references to Christ's Coming portray people in either of two camps, either saved or not.
For myself, I look to the details, paying attention to them all. I think that will yield significant differences in our conclusions. As we've been seeing.

Much love!
 

marks

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No, it's just a very general statement of what will happen, rather than a detailed explanation. Christ will set up his Kingdom, and those who had lived, whether good or bad, will be appropriately placed, either in his Kingdom or outside of it.
So, I see this as, Jesus comes in power and glory, and sends His angels to gather the chosen. Then Jesus takes His throne of glory, and the nations are gathered and separated according to how they treated Jesus' brothers, the Jews. I see this clearly laid out in the details of the passage, and also supported in the OT prophecies, such as,

Joel 3:1-2 KJV
1) For, behold, in those days, and in that time, when I shall bring again the captivity of Judah and Jerusalem,
2) I will also gather all nations, and will bring them down into the valley of Jehoshaphat, and will plead with them there for my people and for my heritage Israel, whom they have scattered among the nations, and parted my land.

"plead" there is to enter a judgment.

This describes the same events.

Much love!
 

Randy Kluth

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So, I see this as, Jesus comes in power and glory, and sends His angels to gather the chosen. Then Jesus takes His throne of glory, and the nations are gathered and separated according to how they treated Jesus' brothers, the Jews. I see this clearly laid out in the details of the passage, and also supported in the OT prophecies, such as,

Joel 3:1-2 KJV
1) For, behold, in those days, and in that time, when I shall bring again the captivity of Judah and Jerusalem,
2) I will also gather all nations, and will bring them down into the valley of Jehoshaphat, and will plead with them there for my people and for my heritage Israel, whom they have scattered among the nations, and parted my land.

"plead" there is to enter a judgment.

This describes the same events.

Much love!

That's very plausible. As I said, I never spent much time with this because for me it has nothing to do with scheduling where various events fit into a timetable. Basically, Christ comes back and establishes his Kingdom. And in the process, the world, who has persecuted and abused Jews, will be judged for doing that. But Israel will be involved in that judgment as well, since unbelieving Jews will persecute believing Jews.

Everything that was written in the OT and in the Gospels had to do with the Law, because that instrument amplified the reason Mankind had been excluded form the Garden of Eden and from the Tree of Life. Human Sin disqualified all of mankind from obtaining a place in God's eternal Kingdom.

So whatever Jesus taught in the Gospel records had to do with Israel still being under the Law and the exclusive chosen nation on earth, representing a path forward to a place beyond the condemnation of the Law, where mercy reigns triumphant. In the OT scenario, then, Israel is viewed as persecuted by a pagan world. They want what the Law represented as a human problem, self-justification. They rejected the way of mercy, represented by Israel's proper presentation of the Law.

Even after the international Church has come into being, the world remains relatively pagan and hostile to God's people, both Jews and Christians. The world still wants to be independent of God, and wants to justify themselves apart from God's help.

So what Jesus said under the Law in the Gospels still applies today, in the Church age. People are being judged, by how they treat the Gospel, and by how they treat God's people, whether Jews or Christians. They are being judged as to whether they belong in God's Kingdom or not.

What I think is imperative to note is that Israel had been under the Law to show a pathway forward by mercy alone, and not by the Law and by its improper use to justify one's self, apart from God's mercy. The Law exemplified this, and any return to the Law is never indicated in prophecy, in my scheme.
 
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David in NJ

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If I had a party for my kids, it would be exclusive to their friends, but still would not be a "secret party!" There is no secrecy with Christ's Coming for the Church. It is plainly taught in the Gospel throughout the world. The world simply doesn't choose to believe it.

So, as un-secret as it is, it will come as a surprise to the unbelieving, wicked world when it comes, because judgment will suddenly fall upon them. I'm sure we agree on this much.

But I find the Rapture of the Church and the 2nd Coming to be synonymous, with no biblical reason to separate them. They all use the same language and refer to the same sources. To separate them requires the imposition of a strange theology that isn't even in the Bible.

Paul made it clear that the idea of an imminent or immanent Rapture is false doctrine. Antichrist, and antichrists, must precede the universal appearance of Christ to this world. He will come both to save his people, the Church, and to judge the world that is in full-scale rebellion against him.
 

farouk

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In my experience with pre-trib doctrine those who cling to it do so without examination of all scriptures that clearly oppose it. They cling to Pastors, Books, Churches and the Majority as justification and security.
After all - why would so many Christians and 'Renown' Pastors and Bible Universities and Bible 'Scholars' and Doctorates of Divinity (lol) and Churches believe in it if it were not true???
Matthew 24 and Luke 21 seem to show that the great tribulation involves a Jewish remnant after the church has gone. The background to Matthew 24 is strongly Jewish.
 

David in NJ

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Beware Brethren of the cunning craftiness of the serpent and how easily satan knows, better than anyone on here, the scriptures and how to, ever so slightly twist them so that a 'New' discovery or 'revelation' or 'exegesis' or 'hidden truth' is known to those who have the 'scholarly aptitude' to declare such things. Gen 3:1-5, Matt 4:1-11, 2 Cor. 11:3, 2 Cor 12:1-10

Pre-trib is, in fact, proven by Jesus, Paul, John, Luke, Peter, a subtle lie from satan that has devastating consquences in the Churches.

The method of transmission of this lie is the same as in the Garden - Pride - You will have a better understanding of what God really said; example: Matt 24:29-31 - satan's teaching on this = 'the elect only pertains to Israel, not to the Gentile Church....'

The extreme arrogance of this corrupted/twisted 'exegesis' is satan's hallmark in false teachings/doctrines and it is 'Pleasing to the wicked religious heart of man' - Jeremiah 17:9
The false prophets (Left Behind) love money and no easier way to take money from the hand's of the Sheeple than to declare a Pre-Trib Rapture.
The arrogance to go against or add to/take away, from the word's of our Lord and the Apostles whom only He ordained to speak and testify of the Truth according to the Holy Spirit.

It is no wonder then Brethren, that the Lord warned us through Paul when he said = Acts 20:29-31

The Truth is found here = I Thess Ch 1 and Ch 4 and 2 Thess Ch2 and I Cor Ch 15 and 1 John Ch 2 and Revelations
Not here = Left Behind, Secret Rapture, Multiple Raptures, Pre-Trib Rapture and the like

Popularity of doctrine, especially when it is pleasing to the flesh is a Red Flag to those who study scripture from a pure heart that is submitted unto Christ and the Fear of the Lord = "Do not add to My Words or take away" Revelations 22:18, Deuteronomy 4:2

Proud men and women have a special connection that enables them to see hidden truths in scripture - we call them magicians, tricksters, snake oil salsemen, Doctorates of Divinity and TV Evangelists.
 

farouk

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A good question to ask about Bible passages and entities (1 Cor. 10.32), to whom does a particular stage of the Lord's coming refer? If one does not clearly distinguish between Israel and the church, then naturally there may be a tendency to assume all references to aspects of the coming refer to the same entity.
 
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marks

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A good question to ask about Bible passages and entities (1 Cor. 10.32), to whom does a particular stage of the Lord's coming refer? If one does not clearly distinguish between Israel and the church, then naturally there may be a tendency to assume all references to aspects of the coming refer to the same entity.
And endless confusion results.

:(
 
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Randy Kluth

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A good question to ask about Bible passages and entities (1 Cor. 10.32), to whom does a particular stage of the Lord's coming refer? If one does not clearly distinguish between Israel and the church, then naturally there may be a tendency to assume all references to aspects of the coming refer to the same entity.

Your question poses an interesting way of dividing the meaning of words, and assumes that Israel belongs in the same category as the Church. After all, why would you divide something unless they first had a unity?

But Israel is a nation, and the Church is a religious group--not the same thing. They don't belong together in terms of a comparison. I can only distinguish them by saying one is a single nation, and the other is a religious group, consisting of people from all nations. Israel, is therefore, just one of the many nations. But Israel is not necessarily religious, not necessarily all belonging to Judaism, and certainly only a relative few belonging to Christianity.

So why are we comparing a nation, distinct from its religion, with the Church as a religious body? In my theology, Israel is going through a phase in which she has dropped out of the category of "God's chosen nation" to an interim period in which her people are in the Jewish Diaspora. Ultimately, Israel will again become a godly nation--in fact, a Christian nation. Then, she will join the company of Christian nations.

None of this history separates the nation Israel, or the Jewish People, from the time in which the Church is growing. The Jews, as a people, simply are wandering listlessly, without Christianity, with only a relative few coming to faith in Christ. We know the destiny of the Jewish people is to be culled, so that a remnant will inherit the nation, and thus, the nation can, as a whole, be a godly nation again.

In sum, you put things into a Dispensationalist frame of reference, which I don't believe is true to either history or to the language of the Bible. It is all one history, including both the growing Church and the people of Israel. Israel will be the last nation to become Christian, I believe. In the meantime, a remnant of Jews are still getting saved, in preparation for Israel's full national salvation.
 

David in NJ

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When Jesus is speaking to the Disciples (the Church) and all those who would believe after (the Church - John 17) He has clearly stated they are His Elect = the Church / His Body / Call Out Ones / Chosen Ones
Anyone who says Christ is referring to the nation Israel in Matt 24:29 is not only wrong but lying whether intentionally or not.
Jesus had already declared that any Jew as individuals and/or as the nation Israel had sealed their fate when they rejected Him and His Words.
Matthew Chapter 21 Jesus established who His Church currently is and all who are included upon His Return.
John Chapter 17 is absolute verification of Matthew Chapter 21 and Matt 24:29 and His Body = the Elect = the Church

WARNING: Anyone who says otherwise is in deceived and deceiving others when they say Matt 24:29 is referring to Israel and not His Bride - the Church.

I Peter Chapter 2 is absolute verification that 'the elect' spoken of by Jesus in Matt 24:29 is the Church and NOT the nation Israel.

Do not be deceived into the trap of pride by "thinking more highly of ourselves than we are permitted" Romans 12:3
No one - repeat - NO ONE has the authority to "add to God's Words or take away" Deuteronomy 4:2 and Revelations 22:18-19

Colossians 3:11-14

Who here on this website dares think he/she has attained Apostleship to override and or change scripture first spoken by our Lord Jesus Christ and then confirmed by His Chosen Apostles such as John, Peter, Matthew, Luke and Paul ??? - Who?
 

Enoch111

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Anyone who says Christ is referring to the nation Israel in Matt 24:29 is not only wrong but lying whether intentionally or not.
Not necessarily. All you have to do is compare what happens at the Rapture (before the Second Coming of Christ) and what happens AFTER the Second Coming to see that there is a HUGE DIFFERENCE.

So let's take a careful and close look at what is stated in Matthew 24:31 (not 29): And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

But this is not what happens at the Resurrection/Rapture. Christ (the divine Bridegroom) comes PERSONALLY for His saints (His Church is His Bride) to take them back to His home in Heaven: For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first (1 Thess 4:16).

Also, there is no mention of the dead in Christ being resurrected in Matthew 24. Why? Because Jesus was clearly not referring to the Rapture.

So now you have a real dilemma on your hands. You can either say you misspoke, or you can go on believing what is false. Also, the term "elect" can apply to either redeemed Israel or the Church, depending on the context. In Matthew 24, the elect cannot be the Church.


 
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David in NJ

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Not necessarily. All you have to do is compare what happens at the Rapture (before the Second Coming of Christ) and what happens AFTER the Second Coming to see that there is a HUGE DIFFERENCE.

So let's take a careful and close look at what is stated in Matthew 24:31 (not 29): And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

But this is not what happens at the Resurrection/Rapture. Christ (the divine Bridegroom) comes PERSONALLY for His saints (His Church is His Bride) to take them back to His home in Heaven: For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first (1 Thess 4:16).

Also, there is no mention of the dead in Christ being resurrected in Matthew 24. Why? Because Jesus was clearly not referring to the Rapture.

So now you have a real dilemma on your hands. You can either say you misspoke, or you can go on believing what is false. Also, the term "elect" can apply to either redeemed Israel or the Church, depending on the context. In Matthew 24, the elect cannot be the Church.

 

David in NJ

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100% FALSE

You are in deception - you suffer from CRT: Critical Religion Theory

Ephesians 1:1-14 again burns to ashes your erroneous interpretaion of scripture that has already been VERIFIED by Jesus, Paul, Peter, John, Luke

You are all alone, standing with those who trust in man, and have not yielded to the Holy Spirit concerning this.

Jesus said "as in the days of Noah, so shall my return be"

Eight Souls were saved, in the Ark - Eight
Those Eight were the majority before God - the rest were the minority.
 

Curtis

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Matthew 24 and Luke 21 seem to show that the great tribulation involves a Jewish remnant after the church has gone. The background to Matthew 24 is strongly Jewish.

The deal is how Luke 21, Matthew 24 and 2 Thessalonians 2 dovetail with each other - all three accounts have tthe son of perdition/abomination of desolation, and then the day of the Lord at the second coming of Christ, with the rapture.

And 2 Thessalonians 1 unequivocally has the second coming of Jesus being part of the day of the lord, then next chapter states we won’t be gathered together with Him at His coming (at the day of the lord), until the son of perdition is revealed.

Because of 2 Thessalonians 1, it can’t be claimed that Paul is talking about two separate events of the second coming and the day of the lord in 2 Thessalonians 2 - both events occur simultaneously, making 2 Thessalonians 2 into proof of the mid trib rapture, since it can’t occur UNTIL the mid trib point event of the son of perdition revealing himself in the temple.

Even Zechariah 14 has the day of the lord in verse 1, followed by the coming of the Lord with all the saints in verse 5, confirming the linkage of the two.

In fact Zechariah 14 strongly suggests that the rapture of the saints in the air occurs as Jesus is returning to earth - mount olive - the very place Jesus ascended from, that the angel said Jesus would return to, in the same manner He ascended.
 
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farouk

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The deal is how Luke 21, Matthew 24 and 2 Thessalonians 2 dovetail with each other - all three accounts have the day of the Lord, the second coming of Christ, the son of perdition/abomination of desolation, and then rapture.

And 2 Thessalonians 1 unequivocally has the second coming of Jesus being part of the day of the lord, then next chapter states we won’t be gathered together with Him at His coming (at the day of the lord), until the son of perdition is revealed.

Because of 2 Thessalonians 1, it can’t be claimed that Paul is talking about two separate events of the second coming and the day of the lord in 2 Thessalonians 2 - both events occur simultaneously, making 2 Thessalonians 2 into proof of the mid trib rapture, since it can’t occur UNTIL the mid trib point event of the son of perdition revealing himself in the temple.

Even Zechariah 14 has the day of the lord in verse 1, followed by the coming of the Lord with all the saints in verse 5, confirming the link between the two.

In fact Zechariah 14 strongly suggests that the rapture of the saints occurs as Jesus is returning to mount olive - the very place Jesus ascended from, that the angel said Jesus would return too, in the same manner He ascended.
1 Thess. 4 - as John 1 Cor. 11.26 - is talking about the church.
 

Randy Kluth

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Not necessarily. All you have to do is compare what happens at the Rapture (before the Second Coming of Christ) and what happens AFTER the Second Coming to see that there is a HUGE DIFFERENCE.

So let's take a careful and close look at what is stated in Matthew 24:31 (not 29): And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

But this is not what happens at the Resurrection/Rapture. Christ (the divine Bridegroom) comes PERSONALLY for His saints (His Church is His Bride) to take them back to His home in Heaven: For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first (1 Thess 4:16).

Also, there is no mention of the dead in Christ being resurrected in Matthew 24. Why? Because Jesus was clearly not referring to the Rapture.

So now you have a real dilemma on your hands. You can either say you misspoke, or you can go on believing what is false. Also, the term "elect" can apply to either redeemed Israel or the Church, depending on the context. In Matthew 24, the elect cannot be the Church.

I may have a little different take from the brother, but I don't think you can make a point that no resurrection takes place in Matt 24.31. That would be an argument from silence.

Here is how Jesus depicted it...
Matt 24.31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

A trumpet is used to gather a large group at once. But the trumpet is blown by the word of the Lord's command.
1 Thes 4.16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.

And what it is that commands life from death, but the word of the Lord, in particular, Christ's command? Here we see Christ's command raising Lazarus from the dead...
John 11.43 When he had said this, Jesus called in a loud voice, “Lazarus, come out!” 44 The dead man came out, his hands and feet wrapped with strips of linen, and a cloth around his face.

This is because Jesus came not just to raise the dead back to life, but to also give them eternal life with God.
John 5.25 Very truly I tell you, a time is coming and has now come when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and those who hear will live.

Receiving life back after death and receiving eternal life is what Christ's command has determined, based on his atoning death.
John 6.68 Simon Peter answered him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life.

Therefore, it is also Christ's command that causes the trumpet to blow and charge the angels with responding with their own voices, gathering the assembly of the saints and bringing about our resurrection from the dead, together with the inheritance of eternal life.
1 Cor 15.52 For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.

All of these things were inferred by Paul after hearing Jesus' Olivet Discourse, that the Son of Man would come from heaven, command this to be done, announced with a trumpet, enabling the angels to give voice to this command to gather the saints. It was the same word of the Lord that God intentioned to deliver through His Son to give us life out of death and to cause us to inherit eternal life with Him.

I do believe Israel was in mind when Jesus gave this address, but Jesus did not intend it to remain with Israel. At that time, Israel was God's exclusive people. However, Jesus had in mind extending his Gospel beyond Israel, when it would become clear that the nation, as a whole, would not immediately apply his Gospel throughout the whole nation.

So although Jesus gave this address as if it was Israel being gathered exclusively, he never indicated as such. Rather, the indication was that later, this same Gospel would be disseminated among the Gentile nations so that when the Son of Man returns from heaven, all of God's people will be gathered, from among all nations. It just was not yet time to say so, as long as Israel remained, under covenant of the Law, God's exclusive people.
 
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marks

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Daniel 12:8-13 KJV
8) And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things?
9) And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.
10) Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.
11) And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.
12) Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.
13) But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days.

The 1335th day . . . Daniel will be resurrected to stand in his inheritance.

John 11:23-24 KJV
23) Jesus saith unto her, Thy brother shall rise again.
24) Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.

John 6:38-40 KJV
38) For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
39) And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40) And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

13) But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days.

The 1335th day, the day of resurrection of the OT faithful.

Much love!