Is pre-tribulation rapture a doctrine of demons?

[Randy Kluth]

This is to say then, that the resurrection of the OT saints is at that time also? Daniel? For instance?

That Jesus returns on the 1335 day?

Much love!

The first resurrection takes place at the 2nd Coming, on the last day of the age. Those persecuted by the Beast, and the dead saints from all ages, all get raised from the dead when Christ commands via a trumpet call. This trumpet call enlists the services of the angels, the archangel giving voice to his angels to gather the saints together, both dead and living---*all* saints.

Dan 12 is a summary of the book of Daniel, as Daniel is reflecting on the final account of the resurrection at the end of the age. He is told about two of the major events yet to take place for Israel: the desolations of Antiochus E. (11.21-45; 12.11) and the 3.5 year reign of terror by the Little Horn (7.8-9; 12.7).

These are two separate prophecies, and both were future for Daniel. And both were major prophecies in the book, setting up the Church for the tribulations of the present age when we will see opposition to the Kingdom of God (12.1). But the resurrection takes place at the end, and not before (12.1-3). This is the "first resurrection" the Apostle John referred to in Rev 20.

Antiochus 4 instigated his reign of terror for 1290 days, although the associated problems began before that period of time. The 1335 days has to do with a blessing that extends after Antiochus dies. One scholar (Payne) suggests that the extra days were required to bring the message to Israel from where Antiochus died.

 

[marks]

Ezekiel 39:25-29 KJV
25) Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Now will I bring again the captivity of Jacob, and have mercy upon the whole house of Israel, and will be jealous for my holy name;
26) After that they have borne their shame, and all their trespasses whereby they have trespassed against me, when they dwelt safely in their land, and none made them afraid.
27) When I have brought them again from the people, and gathered them out of their enemies' lands, and am sanctified in them in the sight of many nations;
28) Then shall they know that I am the LORD their God, which caused them to be led into captivity among the heathen: but I have gathered them unto their own land, and have left none of them any more there.
29) Neither will I hide my face any more from them: for I have poured out my spirit upon the house of Israel, saith the Lord GOD.

Regathering Israel, out of the other nations.

Joel 3:1-2 KJV
1) For, behold, in those days, and in that time, when I shall bring again the captivity of Judah and Jerusalem,
2) I will also gather all nations, and will bring them down into the valley of Jehoshaphat, and will plead with them there for my people and for my heritage Israel, whom they have scattered among the nations, and parted my land.

Restoring Israel, and gathering the other nations for judgment.

Ezekiel 36:8-12 KJV
8) But ye, O mountains of Israel, ye shall shoot forth your branches, and yield your fruit to my people of Israel; for they are at hand to come.
9) For, behold, I am for you, and I will turn unto you, and ye shall be tilled and sown:
10) And I will multiply men upon you, all the house of Israel, even all of it: and the cities shall be inhabited, and the wastes shall be builded:
11) And I will multiply upon you man and beast; and they shall increase and bring fruit: and I will settle you after your old estates, and will do better unto you than at your beginnings: and ye shall know that I am the LORD.
12) Yea, I will cause men to walk upon you, even my people Israel; and they shall possess thee, and thou shalt be their inheritance, and thou shalt no more henceforth bereave them of men.

Israel, restored to the mountains of Israel.

And Jesus prophesied the same thing to the chosen nation.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Antiochus 4 instigated his reign of terror for 1290 days, although the associated problems began before that period of time. The 1335 days has to do with a blessing that extends after Antiochus dies. One scholar (Payne) suggests that the extra days were required to bring the message to Israel from where Antiochus died.

It is the day of Daniel's resurrection.

Much love!

 

[Randy Kluth]

Ezekiel 39:25-29 KJV
25) Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Now will I bring again the captivity of Jacob, and have mercy upon the whole house of Israel, and will be jealous for my holy name;
26) After that they have borne their shame, and all their trespasses whereby they have trespassed against me, when they dwelt safely in their land, and none made them afraid.
27) When I have brought them again from the people, and gathered them out of their enemies' lands, and am sanctified in them in the sight of many nations;
28) Then shall they know that I am the LORD their God, which caused them to be led into captivity among the heathen: but I have gathered them unto their own land, and have left none of them any more there.
29) Neither will I hide my face any more from them: for I have poured out my spirit upon the house of Israel, saith the Lord GOD.

Regathering Israel, out of the other nations.

Joel 3:1-2 KJV
1) For, behold, in those days, and in that time, when I shall bring again the captivity of Judah and Jerusalem,
2) I will also gather all nations, and will bring them down into the valley of Jehoshaphat, and will plead with them there for my people and for my heritage Israel, whom they have scattered among the nations, and parted my land.

Restoring Israel, and gathering the other nations for judgment.

Ezekiel 36:8-12 KJV
8) But ye, O mountains of Israel, ye shall shoot forth your branches, and yield your fruit to my people of Israel; for they are at hand to come.
9) For, behold, I am for you, and I will turn unto you, and ye shall be tilled and sown:
10) And I will multiply men upon you, all the house of Israel, even all of it: and the cities shall be inhabited, and the wastes shall be builded:
11) And I will multiply upon you man and beast; and they shall increase and bring fruit: and I will settle you after your old estates, and will do better unto you than at your beginnings: and ye shall know that I am the LORD.
12) Yea, I will cause men to walk upon you, even my people Israel; and they shall possess thee, and thou shalt be their inheritance, and thou shalt no more henceforth bereave them of men.

Israel, restored to the mountains of Israel.

And Jesus prophesied the same thing to the chosen nation.

Much love!

Of course this has to do with Israel, at a time when only Israel was the "chosen nation." The rest of the nations of the world were pagan, and were ignorant of the truths about God.

But giving this prophecy only about one nation at that time hardly means that the rest of the nations are excluded when they also enter into covenant with God. Many Christian nations have done just that, and now can join in with Israel's hope in the resurrection and in the hope of national restoration. No nation can achieve final salvation in the present age.

When we read these prophecies given specifically to Israel we should recognize they are also recorded for the international Church. Israel was a prototype and a model for all nations to learn the same lessons. What is given only to Israel can be applied also to the nations of the world, who embrace God as their God.

 

[Randy Kluth]

It is the day of Daniel's resurrection.

Much love!

It is the day of all of our resurrections.

 

[Curtis]

1 Thess. 4 - as John 1 Cor. 11.26 - is talking about the church.

The rapture Paul discusses in 2 Thessalonians 2 is not a separate rapture from 1 Thessalonians 4.

That rapture is a mid trib event, therefore so is 1 Thessalonians 4.

 

[David in NJ]

For my brothers who are making this claim - "Jesus established pre-trib" Please show what scriptures - Thank You

If a doctrine is of God then it is Truth - If it is of man or the devil - it is a lie, and we who trust in the Word of God and not man know this "no lie is of the truth"

EXAMPLE: Catholics believe Mary can save them - That is a lie and all who believe it and promote it are liars. So do not take offense when a Brother in Christ clearly shows from scripture that is harmonious ( meaning there are no other scriptures that contradict) that a certain man made doctrine is a lie.
I have many brethren who I love that believe in pre-trib. They are truly saved and we have great prayer and fellowship together. But their belief in pre-trib is still a lie. When they promote, they do so because of willful ignorance of CLEAR scriptures that utterly destroy that doctrine. But I do not reject or hate anyone for it. But God hates it because it divides the Body of Christ.

 

[farouk]

The rapture Paul discusses in 2 Thessalonians 2 is not a separate rapture from 1 Thessalonians 4.

That rapture is a mid trib event, therefore so is 1 Thessalonians 4.

But properly the rapture relates to the church, a heavenly people (as per Ephesians 1); Israel, an earthly people, is not raptured.

 

[Curtis]

100% FALSE


You are in deception - you suffer from CRT: Critical Religion Theory

Ephesians 1:1-14 again burns to ashes your erroneous interpretaion of scripture that has already been VERIFIED by Jesus, Paul, Peter, John, Luke

You are all alone, standing with those who trust in man, and have not yielded to the Holy Spirit concerning this.

Jesus said "as in the days of Noah, so shall my return be"

Eight Souls were saved, in the Ark - Eight
Those Eight were the majority before God - the rest were the minority.

You need to calm down a little, as the rapture isn’t a salvational doctrine, and if you keep being angry and insulting, you’ll get a warning from a moderator, FYI.

 

[David in NJ]

You need to calm down a little, as the rapture isn’t a salvational doctrine, and if you keep being angry and insulting, you’ll get a warning from a moderator, FYI.

Sorry, I am not angry at anyone. Man made teaching in the Church is the problem - so yes, I agree that that it is not a salvation issue but it will cause some to stumble when the false teaching that they are trusting in falls apart. God does not want us to be confused.
God is not the author of confusion - I Cor 14:33
Which brings us back to the origin of this posting (was not me who questioned pre-trib) Who/what is causing the confusion - it is not from God. He made clear what we are to believe on the subject, He gave us His Word and there is no confusion or grey areas at all.

 

[Curtis]

But properly the rapture relates to the church, a heavenly people (as per Ephesians 1); Israel, an earthly people, is not raptured.

Please. (pronounced PUH - LEEZE)

There’s not one gospel for the Jews with an earthly kingdom and another gospel for the gentiles with a home in heaven.

There’s one gospel of the kingdom of Christ, offered FIRST to the Jew, THEN to the gentile/Greek.

Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

As proof, Paul, the apostle to the gentiles. PREACHED THE KINGDOM:

Act 28:28 Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it.

Act 28:29 And when he had said these words, the Jews departed, and had great reasoning among themselves.

Act 28:30 And Paul dwelt two whole years in his own hired house, and received all that came in unto him,

Act 28:31 Preaching the kingdom of God, and teaching those things which concern the Lord Jesus Christ, with all confidence, no man forbidding him.

Act 14:21 And when they had preached the gospel to that city, and had taught many, they returned again to Lystra, and to Iconium, and Antioch,

Act 14:22 Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.

Even John:

Rev 1:9 I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Everyone born again is included in the rapture, Jew or Greek, male or female, bond or free, and is in the kingdom.

 

[David in NJ]

The rapture Paul discusses in 2 Thessalonians 2 is not a separate rapture from 1 Thessalonians 4.

That rapture is a mid trib event, therefore so is 1 Thessalonians 4.

The foundation of pre-trib is changing the meaning of scripture to say something it does not say. Thus they MUST say the elect in Matt24:29 ONLY pertains to Israel. If they don't their doctrine blows up in their face.
Yet, it is clear who the elect are that Jesus speaks of - crystal clear = John Ch 17 and Ephesians 1:1-10

 

[farouk]

Please. (pronounced PUH - LEEZE)

There’s not one gospel for the Jews with an earthly kingdom and another gospel for the gentiles with a home in heaven.

There’s one gospel of the kingdom of Christ, offered FIRST to the Jew, THEN to the gentile/Greek.

As proof, Paul, the apostle to the gentiles. PREACHED THE KINGDOM:

Act 28:28 Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it.

Act 28:29 And when he had said these words, the Jews departed, and had great reasoning among themselves.

Act 28:30 And Paul dwelt two whole years in his own hired house, and received all that came in unto him,

Act 28:31 Preaching the kingdom of God, and teaching those things which concern the Lord Jesus Christ, with all confidence, no man forbidding him.

Act 14:21 And when they had preached the gospel to that city, and had taught many, they returned again to Lystra, and to Iconium, and Antioch,

Act 14:22 Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.

Even John:

Rev 1:9 I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Everyone born again is included in the rapture, Jew or Greek, male or female, bond or free.

In Scripture there is the tribulation principle (John 16.33). And then, as distinct, there is the unique Great Tribulation (Matthew 24.21).

 

[David in NJ]

Please. (pronounced PUH - LEEZE)

There’s not one gospel for the Jews with an earthly kingdom and another gospel for the gentiles with a home in heaven.

There’s one gospel of the kingdom of Christ, offered FIRST to the Jew, THEN to the gentile/Greek.

As proof, Paul, the apostle to the gentiles. PREACHED THE KINGDOM:

Act 28:28 Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it.

Act 28:29 And when he had said these words, the Jews departed, and had great reasoning among themselves.

Act 28:30 And Paul dwelt two whole years in his own hired house, and received all that came in unto him,

Act 28:31 Preaching the kingdom of God, and teaching those things which concern the Lord Jesus Christ, with all confidence, no man forbidding him.

Act 14:21 And when they had preached the gospel to that city, and had taught many, they returned again to Lystra, and to Iconium, and Antioch,

Act 14:22 Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.

Even John:

Rev 1:9 I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Everyone born again is included in the rapture, Jew or Greek, male or female, bond or free.

AWESOME - Thank YOU

 

[David in NJ]

AWESOME - Thank YOU

So the Church (the Elect) are One Body (His Body) and therefore ther is no distinction between Jew and Gentile - Correct ???
If this is correct (as the scripture declares it to be), then their is One Rapture that occurs for One group of people = Jew & Gentile in Christ, His Elect.

 

[Curtis]

In Scripture there is the tribulation principle (John 16.33). And then, as distinct, there is the unique Great Tribulation (Matthew 24.21).

The tribulation is 7 years - 42 months of general tribulation followed by 42 months of great tribulation with the mark of the beast during the great tribulation.

All believers in Christ go up in the rapture, pre or mid trib rapture) regardless of ethnicity, leaving behind unsaved gentiles and unsaved Jews who rejected Jesus as their Messiah- the great trib is for the unbelieving Jews who accept the false Messiah, the Antichrist, to have to deal with him. It’s the time of Jacobs trouble.

 

[farouk]

The tribulation is 7 years - 42 months of general tribulation followed by 42 months of great tribulation with the mark of the beast during the great tribulation.

All believers in Christ go up in the rapture, pre or mid trib rapture) regardless of ethnicity, leaving behind unsaved gentiles and unsaved Jews who rejected Jesus as their Messiah- the great trib is for the unbelieving Jews who accept the false Messiah, the Antichrist, to have to deal with him. It’s the time of Jacobs trouble.

What about tribulation saints, as opposed to those who have been raptured?

 

[Corlove13]

I am really starting to wonder if the pre-tribulation rapture is a doctrine of demons. It sounds wonderful but in reality I think it is a stretch to conclude that there will be a pre-trib rapture from scripture. Yet it is taught with confidence that it is truth. If it is a false teaching that Timothy warns about, many people will be devastated when they are not raptured before the poop hits the fan. I am not worried as I am sure God will protect us but if I spend my days attending a church that teaches this am I just itching my ears? I want truth, I can handle the truth.

What is a pre trib rapture?

 

[David in NJ]

What is a pre trib rapture?

It is a doctrine that teaches before the Anti-Christ is revealed the Church will be taken off the earth to be with Jesus. The rise of the Anti-Christ will bring great tribulation upon the earth. Pre-trib teaches that you will not have to endure tribulation.
There are no scriptures that clearly say this in the Bible. In fact there are many scriptures that say otherwise throughout the New Testament starting in the Gospels.
If it is a false doctrine then it will divide Christians and cause many to fall away from the faith since they may feel they were lied too and the persecution may be too much for them to bear. This is why we must stay close to Jesus and be nourished by His word and the clear teachings of the Apostles.
There are three Eternal Promises that come from our Heavenly Father that He wants all of His children to have.
#1 Salvation through the Blood Sacrifice of God's Son - the Lord Jesus Christ ( forgiveness of sins ).
#2 Baptism in the Holy Spirit - This is the Comforter that brings us into a close relationship with the Father through the Son and the Holy Spirit.
#3 Resurrection - All have sinned therefore all must die. If we belong to Jesus, He promises to us He will return to resurrect our bodies just as He resurrected from the grave and now has a spectacular Glorified Eternal Body that will never get sick, get old, or die. We become Immortal just as Jesus is Immortal.
No one understands all things but God. He calls us to trust Him and to believe on His Word - not man's. That is why He gives us His Holy Spirit, so that we may know Him and understand how He wants us to live while we wait for Him.

As in the days of the early Church so also today many Christians are being persecuted, even being put to death for their faith in Jesus. These Christians would rather die than denounce the Love of God that is poured into their hearts through Jesus Christ. He closely watches over us to give us strength and help when we are in need. His love for us is so great that even when we fail He forgives and lifts us up - this is called GRACE.
No Christian can live without God's Grace in their life and no Christian can please God unless we have faith and trust in Him.
God's Love is so great that even when our faith is weak He remains STRONG on our behalf. No human being can live the abundant life without Jesus.

In summary, if you have been Born Again, pray to the Father for the Baptism of the Holy Spirit. It is this Gift, this magnificent Promise that enables our minds to comprehend His Word and all the Blessings He has for us. It is God's Good Pleasure to give us the Kingdom. Ask and it shall be given, Seek and you shall find, Knock and it shall be opened - Amen

 

[Corlove13]

It is a doctrine that teaches before the Anti-Christ is revealed the Church will be taken off the earth to be with Jesus. The rise of the Anti-Christ will bring great tribulation upon the earth. Pre-trib teaches that you will not have to endure tribulation.
There are no scriptures that clearly say this in the Bible. In fact there are many scriptures that say otherwise throughout the New Testament starting in the Gospels.
If it is a false doctrine then it will divide Christians and cause many to fall away from the faith since they may feel they were lied too and the persecution may be too much for them to bear. This is why we must stay close to Jesus and be nourished by His word and the clear teachings of the Apostles.
There are three Eternal Promises that come from our Heavenly Father that He wants all of His children to have.
#1 Salvation through the Blood Sacrifice of God's Son - the Lord Jesus Christ ( forgiveness of sins ).
#2 Baptism in the Holy Spirit - This is the Comforter that brings us into a close relationship with the Father through the Son and the Holy Spirit.
#3 Resurrection - All have sinned therefore all must die. If we belong to Jesus, He promises to us He will return to resurrect our bodies just as He resurrected from the grave and now has a spectacular Glorified Eternal Body that will never get sick, get old, or die. We become Immortal just as Jesus is Immortal.
No one understands all things but God. He calls us to trust Him and to believe on His Word - not man's. That is why He gives us His Holy Spirit, so that we may know Him and understand how He wants us to live while we wait for Him.

As in the days of the early Church so also today many Christians are being persecuted, even being put to death for their faith in Jesus. These Christians would rather die than denounce the Love of God that is poured into their hearts through Jesus Christ. He closely watches over us to give us strength and help when we are in need. His love for us is so great that even when we fail He forgives and lifts us up - this is called GRACE.
No Christian can live without God's Grace in their life and no Christian can please God unless we have faith and trust in Him.
God's Love is so great that even when our faith is weak He remains STRONG on our behalf. No human being can live the abundant life without Jesus.

In summary, if you have been Born Again, pray to the Father for the Baptism of the Holy Spirit. It is this Gift, this magnificent Promise that enables our minds to comprehend His Word and all the Blessings He has for us. It is God's Good Pleasure to give us the Kingdom. Ask and it shall be given, Seek and you shall find, Knock and it shall be opened - Amen

Yeah, I never understood..but I figure I did not read what passages they have for the teaching....

If I died tomorrow would I face the tribulation?