Agree.
That "eternal" fire in Sodom is NOT burning today.
So obviously the burning aspect is NOT eternal.
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Is the "eternal fire" of Sodom still burning? - Nope
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That "eternal" fire in Sodom is NOT burning today.
So obviously the burning aspect is NOT eternal.
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Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
Nit picking!
Revelation 14:11
And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
People are tortured forever and ever in the lake of fire! the smoke of their torture ascends up forever!
- Matthew 13:42
And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
- Matthew 13:50
And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
3 Resurrections
Active Member
Surely you notice that "day and night" are still going on in this environment. That means this is a location on earth where the living inhabitants are being tormented - not the Hadean realm for the wicked dead. And the worship given to the Sea Beast and its image is still going on in this scenario as well.
The "Lake of Fire" / aka the "second death" was the second death of the city of Jerusalem and its temple, and the end of Israel as a "holy people" at that "end of the age". This took place during the AD 66-70 period. That "furnace of fire" (Matt. 13:42) was in the city of Jerusalem (as the prophet said in Isaiah 31:9). The living, besieged inhabitants of Jerusalem in those years certainly were "tormented" during the "latter end" of Israel as a people.
Scripture describes the weeping and gnashing of teeth by these individuals, and their protesting plea to the returning Christ, "We have eaten and drunk in thy presence, and thou hast taught in our streets." Only the first-century generation of Jewish citizens could possibly utter this statement. It was that first-century generation and their children who Christ warned that, instead of weeping for Him, they should weep for themselves and their children for what was personally going to come upon them during their lifetime.
This torment of the first-century Israelite citizens besieged in their own city Jerusalem should not be interpreted as the after-life perpetual fate of the wicked.
Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
Not on the earth, but under the earth.
The Lake of fire is uninhabited as of yet.
The Lake of fire is where all the lost are cast:
Revelation 20:7-15
King James Version
7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
Gehenna is a name for the place of torment where all lost are being held for now.
Just because you see furnace of fire does not equate it to the lake of fire. That is bad hermeneutics.
3 Resurrections
Active Member
The Lake of Fire is not described as being under the earth. John called the Lake of Fire the same thing as "the second death". This is NOT - repeat - NOT a second death of people, because that would contradict the rule of a one-time-only appointment to a physical death experience for all men in Hebrew 9:27. Nobody ever dies twice. Not even the wicked.
Instead, this was the second time that Death and Hell (Hades - the grave) descended on the city of Jerusalem. You just quoted from Revelation 20:14 above, where "death and hell were cast into the Lake of Fire. This is the second death."
The first time "Death and Hell" were said to overcome the city of Jerusalem and its inhabitants was back under the Babylonian invasion, as found in Isaiah 28:14-19. God said that the scornful rulers of the people at Jerusalem had made a covenant with Death and with Hell, thinking that these would not come to the city of Jerusalem. God told them that their covenant with Death and with Hell would be disannulled. When the "overflowing scourge" of these plagues both came to Jerusalem, these rulers of Jerusalem would be trodden down by it. And they were, in 586 BC.
No, it's not. Gehenna was located outside the southern wall of Jerusalem, and operated as the city's trash dump.
Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
Well we agree on this point. The Lake of fire is an eternal suffering and not an extinction or death of an individual.
You are just wrong!
11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
Death and the grave being destroyed is the second death so that all after these are destroyed, are cast into teh lake of fire suffer for an eternity.
This is a global judgment of the lost and not just Jerusalem. Someone has twisted the scripture on you.
Yes physically8 it was the garbage dump. But Jesus used its name as a metaphor for the place of torments and then the lake of fire.
3 Resurrections
Active Member
No, I never wrote that the Lake of Fire is a state of eternal suffering for the wicked. So we do not agree. The physical bodies of the wicked dead never rise (as in Isaiah 26:14 - "They are dead, they shall not live; they are deceased, they shall NOT RISE: therefore hast thou visited and destroyed them, and made all their memory to perish." The one-time-only death process for the bodies of the wicked dead is never reversed. It is an eternal judgment in that this sentence of death is never rescinded in a bodily resurrection to life again.
Of course it was a global judgment of the lost in AD 70, and not just those wicked who died in Jerusalem. The judgment scene took place in heaven then, where rewards were given for all the resurrected righteous according to their works. Every saint who had died since Creation was gathered together to the Mount of Olives location and taken to heaven with the returning Christ in AD 70.
The spirits of all the wicked dead also were brought to that judgment, because this GWT judgment was to include both "the just and the unjust". However, the spirits and souls of the wicked dead, unlike the righteous, received a "resurrection to damnation" at that point (John 5:29). We are to fear Him who has power not only to destroy the body, but the soul also (Matt. 10:28).
The Lake of Fire was only a symbol for the literal incineration of the city of Jerusalem by the close of AD 70. It was the second time it had been burned down, just like it had been in the 586 BC destruction of the city, the temple, and the nation of Israel under Nebuchadnezzar. "Death" and "Hell" (Hades - the grave) were cast into Jerusalem as a scourge of the inhabitants on both occasions of the city of Jerusalem's death.
Only those with a sick delight in the suffering of their fellow man and in the sense of power that this gives them would invent the concept of an eternal torture chamber and teach it as gospel. There's nothing like the fear of the masses to keep mother church in power over her subjects. It's good for business and profits. But it is not God's nature as portrayed in the judgments which He has executed over history. Death is the worst punishment that God has meted out for those who disobey His law. Not torture. Even the worst offense under Mosaic law never received a sentence beyond the death penalty.
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Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
So you disagree with Jesus.
11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
You say they physically die and that is it. But God says in REv. 20 those in the grave and death and died in the sea will be risen!
Are you a JW? You believe like they do.
3 Resurrections
Active Member
No, I don't disagree with Jesus. These verses above are describing the resurrected righteous being taken to heaven for a GWT judgment where rewards were to be given to every one according to their works. The dead written in the book of life (v. 12) were going to experience this as they stood before God. Death and Hell (the grave) cannot hold the physical bodies of the righteous when the trumpet of God awakens them to a changed, immortal condition in a bodily resurrection.
The physical bodies of the wicked dead in the grave never rise again, as the righteous do. Isaiah knew this, which is why he wrote about the difference in the fate of the wicked compared to the righteous who belong to God (Isaiah 26:14 "They shall NOT rise..." contrasted with Isaiah 26:19 "Thy dead men SHALL live, together with my dead body shall they arise...")
As I've written a couple times above, "Death and Hell" (Hades - the grave) being thrown into the Lake of Fire was the second time that both of these plagues came as an "overwhelming scourge" to tread down the living inhabitants of Jerusalem as the besieged city was dying (Isaiah 28:14-19 and Rev. 20:14). Jerusalem's first death was in 586 BC when the city and temple was completely burned by the Babylonians. Jerusalem's "second death" was in AD 70 when the city and the temple was completely burned for a second time by the Zealots and the Romans (the "lake of fire" conditions inside the city).
Scripture says the righteous written in the book of life who are in the grave will arise. It does NOT say this about the dead physical bodies of the wicked. Once the bodies of the wicked descend into the dust of the grave, those bodies are left to disintegrate forever in the grave; never to rise again. Their souls appear before the throne of God in a GWT judgment, but not having the vicarious covering of Christ's righteousness, their souls are also destroyed (Matt.10:28) by that "resurrection to damnation" (John 5:29). Everything that composes the wicked - body, soul, and spirit - is destined for utter destruction; a death sentence that lasts forever and is never rescinded.
Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
3 Resurrections
Active Member
No. Since I was a young teen I have been Reformed Baptist, Southern Baptist, Independent Baptist, back to Southern Baptist again, and for the last 12 years have been a Preterist.
Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
Should have quit when you went back to teh SBC. That was the closest to understanding eternal destinies and eschatology in all your travels.
3 Resurrections
Active Member
In my roughly 17 years of constant attendance at the SBC, there was never a sermon on anything eschatological - nor anything taught from Daniel or Revelation from the pulpit. In the Sunday school for adults, the father of the pastor taught some things on a couple occasions about AD 70, but he did not delve deeply into this subject.
There were two brief series taught during weekly scheduled Bible study over the course of those 17 years. I attended both. The first lasted only three meetings or so in total, and never got beyond dipping a toe into the subject of the various basic views of the millennium. Nothing except that subject was ever spoken of.
The second series was taught by a co-pastor, and lasted for about 4 meetings. After the 3rd and 4th study group in this series, I spoke alone with this co-pastor about how I saw the themes of eschatology being presented in the scripture from a Preterist standpoint. He was pleasant and willing to hear me out one-on-one, and I was not combative at all. Strangely enough, before the next week's Bible study, the co-pastor made an announcement to those who had been attending that he was not going to continue this series on eschatology until he was more certain about his views on these subjects.
Nothing concerning eschatology was ever addressed again after that, whether in church or bible studies.
As for the subject of eternal destinies, I once asked the main pastor if he had a book in his collection on the subject of Hell that I could borrow. He laughed. That was it, and nothing helpful on the subject was suggested.
If you consider this to be "the closest to understanding eternal destinies and eschatology", then I have to question just how thorough your own experience with the SBC has been. Personally, I was never given enough by the SBC to answer any of my questions about these subjects. Lots of milk. No meat. These experiences led me to do my own studies over the course of the last twelve years, and God has more than answered all of my questions to date. "If any one lack wisdom, let him ask of God, who giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not."
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Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
That is still not an excuse ofr departing from the future reazlity of Rev. and Daniel 9:24-27 and adopting th ewoefully unbiblical preterist view.
Preterism requires a complete reinterpretation of prophecy to even vaguely make it look biblical.
liafailrock
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I have come to believe that the fires of hell are really the glory of the Lord, where no man can look on the Lord and live, and likewise the chaff is burned up, forever gone. There are countless such references in scripture stating what I just said. Those who are like him, born of the Spirit are of the same essence and can look upon God and not be burned up, thus they do not experience the second death that people who were raised physically and found lacking do. Now this is not to say that the fire of the Lord can't cause a literal conflagration such as in the end when this earth will be burned up to start the third and final earth age as the Kingdom of God; indeed the earthly, carnal people will be burned up forever as the apostle Peter taught aka "the lake of fire". That's also prepared for the devil and his angels as well. This is eternal fire God is eternal. Also, "eternal fire" is the same as saying "burnt up forever" in today's language.
BlessedPeace
Well-Known Member
"...What does this tell us about the use of the term "eternal" elsewhere in scripture?"
Does that include the term eternal life?
Here's something to consider. Yes,the eternal fire of Sodom is still burning.
See,Sodom and Gomorrah
expressed a multitude of sins. Not just homosexuality. And today those sins are as a collective dispersed in big cities around the world. Small towns too of course. The point being what gave cause to consume Sodom is still here.
Here's something else to consider. God destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah,the world in the deluge,other people's in history,due to their sins. Wiped them out.
And yet,repopulating the world after Noah,and on and on,the sin goes.
How?Why? When man cannot change those things about ourselves unless God,the Holy Spirit, changes their human nature so to understand the things of God that until then is thought to be foolishness.
Many insist we have free will. Yet it is God's will that rules the world. If our will shapes our reality we could change our nature by choice. However, God repeatedly tells us we cannot do so unless he intercedes.
Many of us say,as have I,that universal Christianity is heresy. And yet,for the world to change its innate sinful nature,only God can intercede. As he tells us.
And yet,he doesn't change the nature of humanity world wide.
He instead repopulates it,after destroying it in full or in parts,with sinners. Who express the same sinful nature that leads,led,God to destroy the world in whole or in parts,due to the singular environment God will no longer tolerate.Sin.
Why?
I know,I know.
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3 Resurrections
Active Member
The only predictions in Revelation that apply to your future and mine are the sealed up prophecies in Revelation 10:4 that John was forbidden to write down. These prophecies of the 7 thunders were all "sealed up" for the ages that would follow the AD 70 return of Christ ("the ages that are coming" which Paul referred to).
To "seal" something in scripture is to reserve it for the future - even the distant future. Daniel's prophecies were all sealed up (Daniel 12:4), because they were future to Daniel's days. In Revelation, there was a process of Christ unsealing those prophecies in Rev. 7 & 8, which meant they would apply to those first-century times John was living in ("the things which are about to be hereafter" in Rev. 1:19).
Preterism is the first eschatological method I ever encountered of interpreting scripture by openly acknowledging the time-relevant terms and language which saturate the NT. All of that language of imminence pointed to a first-century fulfillment of Daniel and Revelation, with the lone exception of Rev. 10:4. As Christ said would happen in the "days of vengeance" (Luke 21:22), everything written about those days has been fulfilled already (ALL of Daniel and almost all of Revelation). Only the prophecies which were NOT written down, but were "sealed up" in Rev. 10:4 are for our future.
The SBC church I attended was not willing to take the time to do any solid research into these subjects. They liked their comfort zone too much to question anything. As "Berean" students of scripture, we are not to operate that way. Scripture is supposed to be a daily search as to whether we have been taught the truth or not. The Pre-mil disp. training from my childhood upward has proven to be terribly off the mark.
The same goes for all my youthful instruction about the subject of Hell and the Lake of Fire, and the fate of the wicked after death. None of it was on target, according to the holistic teachings from all of scripture combined. I have had to surrender my former misconceptions one at a time over these years to remain faithful to the Word of God itself. Losing fellowship with many is a small price to pay for the peace which I have now about these things and a confidence in having all the scriptures reconciled with each other.
3 Resurrections
Active Member
Yep, and also thankfully, there is always much more grain than chaff. The "grain" is the majority percentage of all humanity that will be gathered into God's "barn". The "chaff" is the minority percentage.
