Is The Rapture A Literal Event?

[marks]

Why is it always assumed that because Christians are not appointed to wrath, the conclusion must always be that they need not see the tribulation? Being witnesses to the execution of the sentence upon the guilty doesn't necessarily mean being executed along with the guilty does it?

Hi brakelite,

With the exception of the locust things from the abyss, and the other exception of the Jews being nourished in the wilderness, what will happen will happen to all, according to what I read.

With that being said, I think that arguing that since we are not appointed to wrath we won't be there isn't the best argument, as the wrath referred to could just the same, and better, in my opinion, be speaking of the wrath of final judgment.

I think there are far better reasons to believe a pre-trib rapture. But if someone tends to read the Bible as allegory or metaphor, it's unlikely we'll see it the same.

Much love!

 

[Taken]

Why is it always assumed that because Christians are not appointed to wrath, the conclusion must always be that they need not see the tribulation?

I find nothing in Scripture about your proposal of "OBSERVING" / "SEEING" Having anything to do with NOT being appointed to Gods Wrath.

Being witnesses to the execution of the sentence upon the guilty doesn't necessarily mean being executed along with the guilty does it?

One thing (Seeing) an execution... Has nothing to Do with another Thing ( Rapture ).

The GREAT Tribulation is about God exacting HIS ANGER Upon the Earth and its inhabitants who have Rejected Him AND His Word. Does that Apply TO You? IF so, your expectation should be...To NOT be Lifted UP ABOVE the Face of the Earth and thus BE SUBJECT TO devastation that shall come Upon the Earth.

Remember...a man IN Christ IS Not Glorified,
UNTIL he is Lifted UP. REMAINING on the Face of the Earth...You would therefore BE SUBJECT TO Gods ANGER, WRATH and Killed, By the AntiChrist or the Effects of the Earth itself. Accomplished Via Gods Power.

For what purpose or Scriptural Teaching Is God Angry with Any man who was Crucified with Christ...that that man is Appointed to Suffer Gods Great Tribulation ?

Sort of would MAKE being crucified With Christ pointless...don't you think?
Like Making a man Dead...then Suffer Gods ANGER And Be Made DEAD AGAIN.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Stan B]

Why is it always assumed that because Christians are not appointed to wrath, the conclusion must always be that they need not see the tribulation? Being witnesses to the execution of the sentence upon the guilty doesn't necessarily mean being executed along with the guilty does it?

brakelite>> re: the rapture, "WHEN? BEFORE the Great Tribulation Begins."

You seem to be very knowledgeable about this kind of stuff, so maybe you can help me understand the concept of the rapture which takes place before the tribulation begins.

I was just reading about the tribulation in Revelation 6 and it seems that a whole lot of people did not make it to the rapture that takes place BEFORE the tribulation begins:

"When the Lamb broke the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God, and because of the testimony which they had maintained; and they cried out with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, will You refrain from judging and avenging our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” And there was given to each of them a white robe; and they were told that they should rest for a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brethren who were to be killed even as they had been, would be completed also." Rev 6:9

Sounds to me, that these saints will remain on earth through to at least the first 5 seals of the tribulation. And there seem to be a lot of them: " A myriad that no man could number" according to Rev 7:19

"I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could count, from every nation and all tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb" . . “These who are clothed in the white robes, who are they, and where have they come from?” I said to him, “My lord, you know.” And he said to me, “These are the ones who come **OUT** of the great tribulation. Rev 7:9

So . . how many get to go BEFORE the tribulation, and perhaps supply the Scripture reference that confirms your idea.

 

[Stan B]

Why is it always assumed that because Christians are not appointed to wrath, the conclusion must always be that they need not see the tribulation? Being witnesses to the execution of the sentence upon the guilty doesn't necessarily mean being executed along with the guilty does it?

brakelit says >> 4) To send to the hills, 12,000 of each of the twelve tribes of Israel to PREACH the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

Sound interesting. I never heard that before. Where in the Bible does it say that 12,000 from each tribe are being sent to "PREACH the Gospel" I tried to find the purpose for the 12,000 from each tribe, but couldn't find it. I would appreciate your help in finding it.

 

[Stan B]

To each his own, buddy. I don't read it a lot - haven't read it in a long time actually - but if you study Jude in-depth, you discover that his entire letter was actually based on the book, beginning from v.4 on through the v.15. Too much to cover to prove that out (and some may want me to which I wouldn't have time for), but the book was the impetus for the letter as a way of clarifying the second Chapter of 2nd Peter in light of Enoch's prophecy.

But it centers on the ante-diluvian world, so you have to be into that sort of thing to desire to read it, and not everyone is.

I just checked, and the book I read was not the "Book of Enoch", but "The Secrets of Enoch", and it has been a good 50 years since I read it.

Upon investigating, "The Book of Enoch" seems to have been a highly revered book over the ages. Jude doesn't specifically reference "The Book of Enoch", but did have access to the vast accumulation of scrolls in the Temple, and had a lot more to work with, and in a purer form than we have today.

 

[Hidden In Him]

I just checked, and the book I read was not the "Book of Enoch", but "The Secrets of Enoch", and it has been a good 50 years since I read it

Yeah. That's actually 2 Enoch, which never left much of a lasting impression on me either.

 

[brakelite]

Oh really? I was always under the impression that the first five were given at Sinai. Where did you read that? I'd be curious to read it.


Now this is a valid argument. But the quotes in question read as just that, quotes. This suggests there were books they were citing as authoritative. This is turn leaves the reader asking, "What books are they quoting that served as the basis for their theology?" This in turn leaves us wondering why they would cite books that He has not seen fit to preserve for us as reference, if the books we have by those names are not the true books being referred to in scripture. As one who studies scholarship some, I just take the position that the Lord saw fit to leave us the actual documents so that we are not al l wondering around in the dark about what the Bible writers were referring to.

I have a possible theory concerning Moses'writing. Written language was a relatively new concept by the time of Moses was it not? Until then, everything was passed down generation to generation, verbally. We know that the antideluvians were vastly more intelligent than we are currently. Fresh from their Makers hands so to speak, the effects of sin and decay had not yet make made their mark upon the intellectual capacity of the race. Thus we can be fairly confident that the history of creation, of man, and the early events leading up to Moses appearance would have been handed down verbally, and accurately. Maybe. So perhaps not so much of inspiration needed... Just an accurate verbal source.

 

[brakelite]

The answer is very simple once you give up the false notion that the Papacy is the Antichrist.

It is only during the future reign of the Antichrist for 3 1/2 years that the Tribulation (or time of Jacob's trouble) will happen (Dan 12:1). But in order for the Antichrist to take control, God must send a strong delusion upon the unbelieving world. And in order for that to happen the Holy Spirit must be taken "out of the way". And for that to happen the Church and the Holy Spirit must be removed to Heaven. Only then can Satan and the Antichrist take total control of the world, while God brings His judgments upon the earth. The Tribulation is a time of divine judgment and wrath, and Christians are not subject to wrath.

If you read Daniel 12:1, you must include Daniel 12:2, which together describe the very same event as described in several places in the NT, the resurrection, which we all know takes place at the precise moment of Christs second coming yes?
There are serious reasons why a witness is necessary for the judgement, or to be more accurate, the sentence. Because we are all witnesses in a great drama, a real life court case, and our testimony is an essential ingredient to the proceedings. I was alluding to this on another thread... That the war between Christ and Satan hasn't fully been settled yet... The idea that God is an injustice judge, an unfit ruler, is still prevalent throughout the world, hence mankind's reluctance to serve Him. This idea, that Satan's rule is a better option, had to be played out to the end, and justice seem to be done that all the world will be left with no doubts, no excuses, and no complaints when the final sentences are carried out. Which is not the coming tribulation but the second death, 1000 years away, at least.
The Way

 

[brakelite]

I think there are far better reasons to believe a pre-trib rapture. But if someone tends to read the Bible as allegory or metaphor, it's unlikely we'll see it the same.

I see a future time of trouble as a literal event, not allegorical at all. But I do not see in scripture any reason why God would see fit to remove us completely from the scene of action when He can show forth His glory and power by protecting us from it thus vindicating His character of love and justice. His character for 6000 years had been trodden underfoot... What greater way to reveal His true nature than by keeping spiritual Israel secure in the midst of turmoil?

I find nothing in Scripture about your proposal of "OBSERVING" / "SEEING" Having anything to do with NOT being appointed to Gods Wrath.

seehttps://brakelite.wordpress.com/2014/06/09/the-way/

brakelit says >> 4) To send to the hills, 12,000 of each of the twelve tribes of Israel to PREACH the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

Sound interesting. I never heard that before. Where in the Bible does it say that 12,000 from each tribe are being sent to "PREACH the Gospel" I tried to find the purpose for the 12,000 from each tribe, but couldn't find it. I would appreciate your help in finding it.

Not sure where you are coming from here, could you clarify please?

 

[brakelite]

So . . how many get to go BEFORE the tribulation, and perhaps supply the Scripture reference that confirms your idea.

That anyone should be "raptured" prior to the tribulation is no longer my idea, although I became familiar with it during my tenure in Pentecostal churches in the last 70s. I am no longer of that persuasion and no longer am convinced that a pre tribulation rapture is either Biblical, necessary, or even advantageous to either God or man.

 

[Philip James]

The idea that God is an injustice judge, an unfit ruler, is still prevalent throughout the world

'We do not want this man to be our king'


Peace be with you!

Christ IS risen!
Alleluia!

 

[brakelite]

'We do not want this man to be our king'


Peace be with you!

Christ IS risen!
Alleluia!

Yes Philip! They don't want Him to rule over them because the God they believe in doesn't exist! Which is tied in with our sanctification. God wants to reveal who He truly is, but through us! He is waiting for us to fulfill our true potential before He comes.. That true potential is to reveal the character of God... His love, justice and mercy... To the world in the the midst of the worst of circumstances. Which is why we will be here during the tribulation. Living in the manner God purposed for us in the beginning... Holy and without blame before him in love. How more to His glory is it that His people should be loving their enemies as they are being hunted down as the excrement of the earth?

 

[Taken]

I see a future time of trouble as a literal event, not allegorical at all. But I do not see in scripture any reason why God would see fit to remove us completely from the scene of action when He can show forth His glory and power by protecting us from it thus vindicating His character of love and justice.

He DOES show forth His Power BY LIFTING UP the Justified, Above the destruction of the Earth...just as He showed forth HIS Power and Wisdom By instructing Noah to BUILD an ARK, and thus causing Noah to be LIFTED UP Above the destruction of the Earth.

What exactly does Scripture inform you IS your ROLE to accomplish for the Converted IN Christ....DURING the Great Tribulation?

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[brakelite]

As I said above. Showing forth the character of God in even the most trying of circumstances.

 

[brakelite]

“The Lord is thy keeper: the Lord is thy shade upon thy right hand. The sun shall not smite thee by day, nor the moon by night. The Lord shall preserve thee from all evil: He shall preserve thy soul.” “He shall deliver thee from the snare of the fowler, and from the noisome pestilence. He shall cover thee with His feathers, and under His wings shalt thou trust: His truth shall be thy shield and buckler. Thou shalt not be afraid for the terror by night; nor for the arrow that flieth by day; nor for the pestilence that walketh in darkness; nor for the destruction that wasteth at noonday. A thousand shall fall at thy side, and ten thousand at thy right hand; but it shall not come nigh thee. Only with thine eyes shalt thou behold and see the reward of the wicked. Because thou hast made the Lord, which is my refuge, even the Most High, thy habitation; there shall no evil befall thee, neither shall any plague come nigh thy dwelling.”Psalm 121:5-7; 91:3-10.

 

[Taken]

Yes Philip! They don't want Him to rule over them because the God they believe in doesn't exist! Which is tied in with our sanctification. God wants to reveal who He truly is, but through us! He is waiting for us to fulfill our true potential before He comes.. That true potential is to reveal the character of God... His love, justice and mercy... To the world in the the midst of the worst of circumstances. Which is why we will be here during the tribulation.

Converted men have been spreading the WORD of God, to OTHERS countries for centuries.....and SOME countries WILL NOT ALLOW the WORD of God to be preached IN their countries.

So then what...in the LAST SEVEN years while God is accomplishing what man could NOT DO...
Converted men are going to be dodging earthquakes and biting locusts swarms while preaching the gospel....WHERE?
China? Russia? Islamic countries? India, How about in Synogogues?

Have you not noticed...man has had 2000 + years to teach and preach the Gospel of Christ Jesus...to China, Russia, Islamic countries, India......and the Jews....
Have you observed GREAT success of man's efforts?
Have you taken part in ONCE inviting a Jew or Muslim or Hindu to Convert IN Christ Jesus?

What would be different .... during the Great Tribulation...? Aside from 1/3 of the worlds trees being destroyed, water turning to blood, swarming insects, severe weather disturbances in numerous places, people dying quicker than they can be buried...
Really ... ? You're going to be going about to places you do not go NOW, and preach to people who are starving, and consumed with sores and pain.....while yourself in the same condition?

Where in Scripture are Converted men APPOINTED to accomplish ANYTHING during the Great Tribulation?

Why was Noah Lifted UP Above the Earth, during the Great Flood Tribulation?.....but the Converted you think should SUFFER, being buried in an earthquake, starving from lack of food, lay in the streets dead and rotting?

What tells you, God is Angry at converted men, and will Cause them to BE Appointed to suffer His ends of days WRATH?

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Taken]

“The Lord is thy keeper: the Lord is thy shade upon thy right hand. The sun shall not smite thee by day, nor the moon by night. The Lord shall preserve thee from all evil: He shall preserve thy soul.” “He shall deliver thee from the snare of the fowler, and from the noisome pestilence. He shall cover thee with His feathers, and under His wings shalt thou trust: His truth shall be thy shield and buckler. Thou shalt not be afraid for the terror by night; nor for the arrow that flieth by day; nor for the pestilence that walketh in darkness; nor for the destruction that wasteth at noonday. A thousand shall fall at thy side, and ten thousand at thy right hand; but it shall not come nigh thee. Only with thine eyes shalt thou behold and see the reward of the wicked. Because thou hast made the Lord, which is my refuge, even the Most High, thy habitation; there shall no evil befall thee, neither shall any plague come nigh thy dwelling.”Psalm 121:5-7; 91:3-10.

BUT, BUT, BUT....what you are ALSO saying...
HE WILL CAUSE YOU TO SUFFER HIS WRATH, that He SHALL Bring forth upon this WORLD?

Do you reconcile that?
Did Jesus LIE, when He said "IF" you Believe IN GOD, IN HIM, and CONVERT, He would be with you and you with Him ALWAYS?
So when He descends to the Clouds...WHO exactly is He calling UP to MEET HIM, "as He is"... IN THE AIR?

Those who Failed to accomplish the "IF"?
OR
Those who Accomplished the "IF"?
OR
No one...?

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Enoch111]

That anyone should be "raptured" prior to the tribulation is no longer my idea, although I became familiar with it during my tenure in Pentecostal churches in the last 70s. I am no longer of that persuasion and no longer am convinced that a pre tribulation rapture is either Biblical, necessary, or even advantageous to either God or man.

It is interesting that what is called "the Blessed Hope" by God is rejected by so many Christians. Which tells me that SATAN HATES THE DOCTRINE OF THE RAPTURE, because it means that vile sinners (called saints by God) will be ultimately perfected (supernaturally) and purely by the grace of God and nothing else. Therefore Satan plants the idea of rejecting the Rapture in the hearts and minds of Christians.

Just as Satan hates the doctrine of justification by grace through faith, he hates the doctrine of glorification by grace through faith.

 

[Hidden In Him]

I have a possible theory concerning Moses' writing. Written language was a relatively new concept by the time of Moses was it not? Until then, everything was passed down generation to generation, verbally. We know that the antideluvians were vastly more intelligent than we are currently. Fresh from their Makers hands so to speak, the effects of sin and decay had not yet make made their mark upon the intellectual capacity of the race. Thus we can be fairly confident that the history of creation, of man, and the early events leading up to Moses appearance would have been handed down verbally, and accurately. Maybe. So perhaps not so much of inspiration needed... Just an accurate verbal source.

That's actually the Jewish tradition, Brakelite. I read they believed that much of the Torah was handed down orally. I'd have to go back and find it, but I remember reading that.

 

[Reggie Belafonte]

It is interesting that what is called "the Blessed Hope" by God is rejected by so many Christians. Which tells me that SATAN HATES THE DOCTRINE OF THE RAPTURE, because it means that vile sinners (called saints by God) will be ultimately perfected (supernaturally) and purely by the grace of God and nothing else. Therefore Satan plants the idea of rejecting the Rapture in the hearts and minds of Christians.

Just as Satan hates the doctrine of justification by grace through faith, he hates the doctrine of glorification by grace through faith.

The rapture is a new age thing and it's been peddled by many really evil people who are just about leading others astray.
I know one who is a Satanist but claims to be a Christian and his mob are all about trying to kill as many people that they can and they idolise the Talmud so called Jews, they demand that the Talmud so called Jews have to control the world, and they do not believe in the Holy Spirit at all but in works to get the Nation Israel to dominate the world and that's what it's all about with them, they give money to the State of Israel so as to help it come about and there Jesus is not the Jesus Christ, they are looking to the 2ed coming, but this will be the Devil in the flesh, this will be world wide Communism MK2 the most evil of Capitalism in bed with Communism, it's a great game plan and it's all coming together as the people who love only money can not see anything but their money, nothing truly matters but their money, they worship money as a god. so the Socialist can lead such people around like a Calf by the nose. because they are truly just that pathetic and that's why we have the right wing in bed with the left nowadays.
The new age rapture plays at the emotions and weaknesses of people, I have seen them play this card all the time, now I see it in how they try to lead people, I have stood their many a time watching them go to work and they are not nice people at all, they want your money and others to be like putty in their hands and they will try and mould you and by do they get angry when they can't, it's people who do not know the bible well that they can dig in their and make out that everything that they say is spot on, but when I point out to them that I know the Bible way better then them then the run scared and don't want you around their flock. if I challenge them on any subject and doing such nicely mind they just get real angry in the same way as freemasons do and they will not sit down with you to try and understand what I am saying at all.
It's like whatever they are saying to me, I know the subject and their is nothing that that they are saying that I do not know at all and they are like trying to teach me as if it do not know. but they do know that I know much better then they do but they just do not want to listen ! because they are gutless cowards and not man enough.
They are trying to make a man made world without Christ Jesus just as the freemasons are, because they truly reject the Holy Spirit.
The have got a false born again thing that they dribble and bingo they have just saved you themselves just say the words they want one to repeat and bingo saved ?