Is The Rapture A Literal Event?
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I'd say it suggests anything you want it to.
To me it suggests that the Holy Spirit knew what the real Enoch said, and had Jude include it in his letter.
Again, that two writers make the same statement does not mean that one took it from the other. That one uses the same words as the other does not authenticate the other.
Four score and seven years ago, our fathers brought forth on this continent a new nation. You can quote that from me, but that doesn't make me Abraham Lincoln, nor does it mean the rest of my post was written by ol' Honest Abe.
We can know that part was written by Lincoln, and we can likewise know the rest was not.
Much love!
But again to your point, this was yet another time when the Lord (or His angles) spoke to Moses directly. The quotes in question are, "About these men, Enoch prophesied..." and "Is this not written in Sefer HaYashar?" Both these quotes suggest they are quoting what they regarded as scriptural references, not something angels or the Lord Himself revealed to them, or to the church at large.
Certainly possible, of course. But the church never left us any record of what the Lord supposedly revealed to them either, unlike with what Moses left to the Israelites in the desert, so I think you are dealing with two different things here.
Is The Rapture A Literal Event? <---OP
Yes, a literal event.
FOR Who?
ALL who are Converted in Christ...
Bodily ALIVE or Bodily DEAD.
WHEN?
BEFORE the Great Tribulation Begins.
What is the purpose of the Great Tribulation?
1) God AND Christ to reveal their Anger toward people who CHOSE to REJECT Him.
2) Christ's ANGER First...particularly Against Israel...called The WRATH of the Lamb.
3) To send ISRAEL (Gods People), two witnesses to Testify of God and Christ.
4) To send to the hills, 12,000 of each of the twelve tribes of Israel to PREACH the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
5) To send AN angel to PREACH the Gospel throughout the whole world.
6) To allow Satan to MARK as many people Willing to follow him, and rule the world, for a space of time.
WHY a LIFTING UP of those IN Christ ...Called Converted IN Christ...BEFORE...the Lambs WRATH and Gods WRATH?
Because: A man Converted IN Christ IS NOT...
Appointed To Wrath.
WHY NOT?
1 Thes 5
[9] For {because}God hath not appointed us to wrath,
US? Us WHO ?
1 Thes 5
[5] .... all the children of light, and the children of the day:
All the children Of the Light...Are the children IN Christ Jesus, The TRUE Light.
John 1
[9] That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.
The Lambs WRATH ... Gods WRATH Is His Expression of ANGER Against Disbelievers, that is set for a specific Time of Gods GREAT Tribulation...To rid the Surface of the Earth ( a PLACE God established for Good Mankinds Estate) ...and God Ridding the Earth's surface of Corruption BY Him destroying the Earth With the Earth.....an event that has only taken place ONCE Before...
When God destroyed the Earth with Water.....And Saved Noah and His family....By:
the Ark being Lifted UP ABOVE the Face of the Earth.
Gen 6
[7] And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth;
Gen 6
[13] And God said unto Noah, ... behold, I will destroy them with the earth.
Gen 7
[17] And the flood was forty days upon the earth; and the waters increased, and bare up the ark, and it was lift up above the earth.
Luke 17 [26] And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.
Matt 24
[21] For then shall be great tribulation, such as was notsince the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
So also shall The Saved IN Christ Be Lifted UP ABOVE the Face of the Earth,as in the DAY of Noah.
God is NOT Angry at men Converted IN Christ, nor are such men SUBJECT to Gods Wrath.
Glory to God,
Taken
Yes, a literal event.
FOR Who?
ALL who are Converted in Christ...
Bodily ALIVE or Bodily DEAD.
WHEN?
BEFORE the Great Tribulation Begins.
What is the purpose of the Great Tribulation?
1) God AND Christ to reveal their Anger toward people who CHOSE to REJECT Him.
2) Christ's ANGER First...particularly Against Israel...called The WRATH of the Lamb.
3) To send ISRAEL (Gods People), two witnesses to Testify of God and Christ.
4) To send to the hills, 12,000 of each of the twelve tribes of Israel to PREACH the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
5) To send AN angel to PREACH the Gospel throughout the whole world.
6) To allow Satan to MARK as many people Willing to follow him, and rule the world, for a space of time.
WHY a LIFTING UP of those IN Christ ...Called Converted IN Christ...BEFORE...the Lambs WRATH and Gods WRATH?
Because: A man Converted IN Christ IS NOT...
Appointed To Wrath.
WHY NOT?
1 Thes 5
[9] For {because}God hath not appointed us to wrath,
US? Us WHO ?
1 Thes 5
[5] .... all the children of light, and the children of the day:
All the children Of the Light...Are the children IN Christ Jesus, The TRUE Light.
John 1
[9] That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.
The Lambs WRATH ... Gods WRATH Is His Expression of ANGER Against Disbelievers, that is set for a specific Time of Gods GREAT Tribulation...To rid the Surface of the Earth ( a PLACE God established for Good Mankinds Estate) ...and God Ridding the Earth's surface of Corruption BY Him destroying the Earth With the Earth.....an event that has only taken place ONCE Before...
When God destroyed the Earth with Water.....And Saved Noah and His family....By:
the Ark being Lifted UP ABOVE the Face of the Earth.
Gen 6
[7] And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth;
Gen 6
[13] And God said unto Noah, ... behold, I will destroy them with the earth.
Gen 7
[17] And the flood was forty days upon the earth; and the waters increased, and bare up the ark, and it was lift up above the earth.
Luke 17 [26] And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.
Matt 24
[21] For then shall be great tribulation, such as was notsince the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
So also shall The Saved IN Christ Be Lifted UP ABOVE the Face of the Earth,as in the DAY of Noah.
God is NOT Angry at men Converted IN Christ, nor are such men SUBJECT to Gods Wrath.
Glory to God,
Taken
aspen
“"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few
aspen
“"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few
Yeah, I get it. I guess I take issue when people start deciding who is going to be left behind
There's not a lot in the Bible about it. But I think it's there just the same.
Much love!
aspen
“"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few
I tend to view it as the Protestant version of Purgatory - lots of story based on a tiny amount of scripture
Stan B
Well-Known Member
Hidden In Him, I ended up on this forum as luck-of-the-draw. After enduring some shallow agenda-driven forums, I did a google search in an effort to find a Bible Study Forum, and this was the forum at the very on the list.
So far, I like what I see here. I don't agree with everything everyone on the forum, but they all seem to be open to "intelligent" discussion, and that's what makes this forum interesting, and an opportunity to consider alternate viewpoints.I am a 77 year old guy, who has been actively studying Scripture since I was 12 years of age, to the point I sometimes feel that every cell in my body is infused with Scripture.
Four years ago, my beloved wife of 50 years went on ahead of me, to get the flower gardens all arranged for our new home in Heaven. She really loved her flower gardens, and couldn't wait to get her the cultivator into the ground as Spring arrived.
Since the two of us had become truly one, when she died, she took half of me with her, and I look forward the day when I get the other half of myself rejoined. In all my years, after she left, I have never experienced such intense, devastating pain. While others in the same stituation resort to any number of pharmaceutical aids, I have discovered that studying Scripture, is the one remedy made the pain completely go away while I was engaged in such activity.
This looks like a forum that is tailor-made for me, and I will
really enjoy!
Last edited:
Nancy
Well-Known Member
Welcome to the forum, Stan!Hidden In Him, I ended up on this forum as luck-of-the-draw. After enduring some shallow agenda-driven forums, I did a google search in an effort to find a Bible Study Forum, and this was the forum at the very on the list.
I am a 77 year old guy, who has been actively studying Scripture since I was 12 years of age, to the point I sometimes feel that every cell in my body is infused with Scripture.
Four years ago, my beloved wife of 50 years went on ahead of me, to get the flower gardens all arranged for our new home in Heaven. She really loved her flower gardens, and couldn't wait to get her the cultivator into the ground as Spring arrived.
Since the two of us had become truly one, when she died, she took half of me with her, and I look forward the day when I get the other half of myself rejoined. In all my years, after she left, I have never experienced such intense, devastating pain. While others in the same stituation resort to any number of pharmaceutical aids, I have discovered that studying Scripture, is the one remedy made the pain completely go away while I was engaged in such activity.
This looks like a forum that is tailor-made for me, and I will
really enjoy!
https://www.facebook.com/stan.birch.9
I am so sorry for the loss of your other half. And, I'm betting God has her tending many gardens
I hope you enjoy it here. Some will try you, just as a heads up but then, that can be the nature of all these sites.
In Him,
nancy
Stan B
Well-Known Member
Actually, it IS in your Bible, and the Book of Jasher is used in Scripture to verify the truth of what is being declared in Scripture. Since the Holy Spirit used the Book of Jasher to support declarations of Scripture, I have no intention of discarding this revered historical work as just a mere insignificant piece of trash.
"Is not this written in the Book of Jasher?"--Joshua, 10-13.
"Behold it is written in the Book of Jasher."--II Samuel, 1-18
The first 12 chapters of Genesis, covers a period of 2500 years! And not at all surprising that these few chapters don't record everything that transpired during those years, but Scripture has provided us with an alternate source to provide us with further history for the period.
My take on Jasher's account of Enoch, is that the rapture of Enoch and his followers, was a pre-flood rapture provided to the saints of old, to escape the coming judgment of the flood. Notwithstanding, Enoch's followers would never have fit into the ark!!
And if you want to go further, the 4 volume history of Josephus provides some wonderful stories of Jewish history, going all the way back to Moses, and his military conquests while he was the commander and Prince of Egypt.
Don't feel intimidated by the fact that they are not Scripture. They are history, and I have never encountered anything therein that would in any way challenge my Faith.
Wonderful words!
I think you will like this forum, too. The distinct thing here is that the average age (of the actives, anyway) is somewhere in the 50s or 60s; a lot of older people, so what you see on average is more substantive posts than at other forums. There's also a strong diversity here, so there's a lot of back and forth all the time yet it has the spirit of a genuine community. That's not to say we don't have our conflicts internally - a lot of dynamics going on all the time - and the occasional ones who outwear their welcome by not respecting others. But it is all in all a really good forum as they go, and well-run especially. The mods are watching, but give us the freedom to say what needs to be said whenever necessary (within minimal limits, of course), which is kind of important on a site that isn't policed very heavily.
Anytime you want to discuss Bible, just let me know. My favorite thing is getting down to studying the actual texts at hand : )
Let me know if you want a who's who of our membership, but I'm guessing you'll figure that out yourself if you stick around long enough (be prepared to hear some really different stuff, btw. When I say "diversity," in some cases we're talking really diverse, LoL).
Blessings in Christ, and glad you joined.
Stan B
Well-Known Member
Yeah, I have read the current version of the Book of Enoch, and found it somewhat less than useful or inspiring.
To each his own, buddy. I don't read it a lot - haven't read it in a long time actually - but if you study Jude in-depth, you discover that his entire letter was actually based on the book, beginning from v.4 on through the v.15. Too much to cover to prove that out (and some may want me to which I wouldn't have time for), but the book was the impetus for the letter as a way of clarifying the second Chapter of 2nd Peter in light of Enoch's prophecy.
But it centers on the ante-diluvian world, so you have to be into that sort of thing to desire to read it, and not everyone is.
Why is it always assumed that because Christians are not appointed to wrath, the conclusion must always be that they need not see the tribulation? Being witnesses to the execution of the sentence upon the guilty doesn't necessarily mean being executed along with the guilty does it?
I do see 1 Thess. 4, John 14, 1 Cor. 11.26 as referring to an actual, rather than a symbolic event.
The answer is very simple once you give up the false notion that the Papacy is the Antichrist.
It is only during the future reign of the Antichrist for 3 1/2 years that the Tribulation (or time of Jacob's trouble) will happen (Dan 12:1). But in order for the Antichrist to take control, God must send a strong delusion upon the unbelieving world. And in order for that to happen the Holy Spirit must be taken "out of the way". And for that to happen the Church and the Holy Spirit must be removed to Heaven. Only then can Satan and the Antichrist take total control of the world, while God brings His judgments upon the earth. The Tribulation is a time of divine judgment and wrath, and Christians are not subject to wrath.
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