Lord is a Title, applicable to both Father and Son.
I disagree with your implication of applying the Father's NAME to Jesus.
Glory to God,
Taken
Israel is the Church
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Lord is a Title, applicable to both Father and Son.
I disagree with your implication of applying the Father's NAME to Jesus.
Glory to God,
Taken
No. I am being very specific. You on the other hand are trying to explain what I have said and it is false. And now it is your confusion, not mine.
Jesus Christ is the personal name of the trinity. Also the personal name of the Son of Man. They baptized in the name of Jesus Christ after Jesus told them to baptize in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Did they get it wrong or are you missing something?
Disagree.
Uh huh.
Uh no, I didn't or wouldn't say "they" got anything wrong.
No. Simply do not agree with you.
Perhaps you could quote Scripture that verifies Your Claim, that Christ is the personal name of the Son of God.
Jesus Christ is God, not just the Son, but the Father and Holy Spirit too. His name means YAHWEH.
You have already stated your opinion.
Can you or can you not quote Scripture to verify Your Claim that Christ is the personal name of the Son of God?
tzcho: directed to you and all those that until 100 years or so have increasing based their modern tribulation theories on this one scripture alone (Romans 11:25)..by misunderstanding it. I wonder if you have considered this interpretation that is not only logical it is also scriptural. It is not a replacement theory as it accounts for the rest of the legitimate Israelites, and does not replace them as you might with Khazarian Jews of today. Today's 'Jews' were never broken off the former Israel. They are not chosen of God, they are impostors.
Romans 11 speaks of the broken branches that represent unbelieving Israel under the Law, those that were circumcised. It also speaks of the other nations as wild olive branches being grafted into the natural olive tree. It also speaks of the other Jews/Judahites/Israelites that lost their identities and believed in Christ that were grafted back into the natural tree after the death of Christ.
So eventually, there are 3 types of branches in Israel (Christ) the root of Jesse, on the natural olive tree. Those that remained on the tree from the beginning, those that were broken off and many were again reattached in later generations as part of the nations, and the rest of the branches from all the nations that never had any attachment to natural Israel of the Law.
Now there is an important expression that is misunderstood. Many have used it to support their tribulation theories without a second thought of reconsidering its real meaning.
It is the one you have emphasized in your #87 Post.
(Rom 11:25) " Brothers, I would not have you ignorant of this mystery, lest you be wise in your own conceits, that a hardening in part has befallen Israel, until the full number of the Gentiles (nations) is made up. "
(Rom 11:26) " And so all Israel shall be saved. Even as it is written: There shall come out of Zion the deliverer, and he shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob. "
Now in Romans, Paul is especially speaking to his ‘new’ brothers, in Christ. Those that are mostly NOT of natural Israel as himself, of the blood-line, of physical circumcision, as he was also under the Law. These brothers were folks mostly of other tribes and nations and a few possibly of natural Israel (that were not physically circumcised) that long ago lost their identity, that were now considered of the other nations or the so-called ‘gentiles/heathens. This is important to realize.
In verse 26 Paul speaks of ‘all Israel.’ This expression speaks of all that came to God through their belief of the promise of a future Messiah, in Christ including all others, after Christ. It never meant all of the OT circumcised Israel shall be saved, just as it of course does not mean all nations shall be saved and be a part of ‘all Israel.’ This is also important to realize.
The expression of Romans 11:26.
As in the NEV translation: “until the full number of the Gentiles is made up”
As in the KJV translation: “until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.”
As in the MKJV translation: “until the fullness of the nations has comes in.”
As in the Textus Receptus Greek: “αχρις ου το πληρωμα των εθνων εισελθη”
This expression does not mean that all the people of nations, excluding natural descendants of Israelites that are to be in Christ’s Israel must enter BEFORE or FIRST. Then the natural descendants of Israelites, those of blood-line natural Israel with lost identities should them begin to come into Israel. This is a ridiculous and corrupt meaning!
Yes, the expression does suggest a sequence of steps or an order of events. It is not TWO events, however. It means when the ONE single event of all Israel is complete, then ‘all’ destined to be in Israel including Paul’s traditional Israel mates of hardened hearts shall also have entered Israel by then, and at that time in the future.
ALL 3 types of branches are on the olive tree, in Christ, in the true Israel. No other branches are given an opportunity to be added to it after two of the three types of branches are complete that time.
So, until all Israel is complete (in Christ) not all descendants of natural or former Israel of Paul’s kin, destined to be saved, shall be in Christ’s Israel, the full body of Christ. They are all part of the nations/gentiles when they were converted - indistinguishable from other peoples.
Bless you,
APAK
Earburner
Well-Known Member
Israel of today was "fathered" by the money of the Rothchilds.
Except for its people, God cares nothing for that nation. In his mind, ever since 70AD, it does not exist.
Why has the underlined portion of the above verse so badly translated.
This is how I would paraphrase this section of the verse: - "until the prophesied full time period of the ‘heathen’ Gentiles is complete, 26 after which all of Israel will be saved"
Perhaps we need all of the errors in the English translations fixed properly before we have a "learned" attempt at a discussion.
Shalom
Let's see if what you allege is true.
CRITICAL TEXT
Οὐ γὰρ θέλω ὑμᾶς ἀγνοεῖν, ἀδελφοί, τὸ μυστήριον τοῦτο, ἵνα μὴ ἦτε ἐν / παρ' ἑαυτοῖς φρόνιμοι, ὅτι πώρωσις ἀπὸ μέρους τῷ Ἰσραὴλ γέγονεν ἄχρι / ἄχρις οὗ τὸ πλήρωμα τῶν ἐθνῶν εἰσέλθῃ,
RECEIVED TEXT
Οὐ γὰρ θέλω ὑμᾶς ἀγνοεῖν, ἀδελφοί, τὸ μυστήριον τοῦτο, ἵνα μὴ ἦτε παρ’ ἑαυτοῖς φρόνιμοι, ὅτι πώρωσις ἀπὸ μέρους τῷ Ἰσραὴλ γέγονεν, ἄχρις οὗ τὸ πλήρωμα τῶν ἐθνῶν εἰσέλθῃ·
The bolded portion literally means: until that the fulness of the Gentiles may come in.
New International Version
...until the full number of the Gentiles has come in
English Standard Version
...until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in
New American Standard Bible
...until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in
King James Bible
...until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in
Holman Christian Standard Bible
...until the full number of the Gentiles has come in
Each and every translation says the same thing. Which means that you are falsely criticizing the translations in this respect.
Imposters of the Jews? wrong , and no certainly I have not misunderstood Romans, but you have overlooked the scriptures that state God's forever covenant with Israel because you follow the wrong Bible teachers & so have been blinded & repeat the Replacement Theology that has it's root in Anti-Jewish/ Anti-Semitic sentiments and that is sinful. How is it that anyone knows better then GOD who are Abrahams seed? to those whom He made the Nation of Israel before Him declaring that Israel will be a Nation before HIM until the stars & the moon cease to exist as stated in Jeremiah 31: 33-36 Look up Apak, last I looked the moon & the stars are still fixed in the heavens.
Well I believe you must convince yourself that you are correct and not necessarily IAW scripture. You should at least do yourself a favor and prove to yourself with scripture and context the words you have spoke to me as if your life depended on it. You just might want to change your story.
Just a question, what is anti-Semitism to you? You might want to look that one up as well, including its history and why it was invented...for what purpose.
Bless you,
APAK
THat is bull. I had no preconceived opinions that I adhere to of myself, but I've belonged to a denomination that was into Supersessionism and THEN, I studied the scripture & the Holy Spirit opened my eyes to see what GOD declared in His WORD for Israel, men cannot put asunder and God will reckon with those who go against Zion for their anti-semitism . Don't get the scriptures wrong, the Lord Jesus Christ will save Israel. Actually , let me correct myself, I attended two very different denominations that preached Replacement Theology and I left both of them, because they did not agree with what the Bible scripture states about God being Israel's husband forever, the promises for Israel are separate from the promises for the church. Zechariah prophecied that God will pour out upon the house of David & the residents of Jerusalem the spirit of Grace and they will see the one that they pierced an will mourn as those who they pierced like an only child.... Zechariah 12:10 : 10 Then I will pour out on the house of David and onthe residents of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and prayer, and they will look on Me, the One they have pierced. They will mourn for Him as one mourns an only child, and weep bitterly for Him as one grieves a firstborn son. 11On that day the mourning in Jerusalem will be as great as the mourning of Hadad-rimmon in the plain of Megiddo.… "
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I do indeed wonder at the theology that seems to hold that all the blessings are for the church and all the curses are for the Jews...
But you are using the evidence that I say is poorly translated in every translated that you referenced.
Your justification is that they all give the same message content but you did not go back to the original Greek Text and the meanings of the words used within that text to see if my criticism was justified or not. Indeed, it is your lack of new evidence that does not confirm the existence of the error.
Perhaps I will demonstrate that the translation is in error if I have the time.
Maybe a better expert would be more appropriate.
Remember that the gentiles spoken of in this section of verse 25 are the heathen gentiles and that this Greek word is different to the word used to describe the Christian Gentiles elsewhere in Romans 11
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The Jewish race ? their is not Jewish race and their never was a Jewish race ever in fact, it was only one Tribe of the Semites.
Or if such would be so, then we would have the Christian race.
Or the Islamic race.
To be a Christian you have to believe in the OT and NT and follow Jesus Christ, not to mention outside of that is not truly worthy of being a Christian at all.
To be a Jew you have to believe in the OT and follow Holy Moses, not to mention anything outside of that is not truly worthy of being truly Jewish at all.
The same goes for Islam, not to mention that Islam is not a race, not to mention that Islam came from the Semitic race and the majority are Semitic race.
The Budda a race ? no !
So you see that the term Anti-Semitic is total nonsense in fact when relating to the Jewish faith. regardless of the USA supreme court may claim. it's Anti-Jewish in fact that should be addressed and what would such mean ? you are what ? not a follower or a supporter in some way ? then it comes down to what type of Jew is being mentioned in fact, just like as it is with Christians or even Islamic type is one on about as well. not all within Islam get on do they ? not all within Christianity get on do they and not all Jews get on do they.
But when it comes to the Jews nowadays you better not expose that not all Jews are totally united as one happy family, you can not do that as it's classed as Anti-Semitic ! you are not allowed to know anything about them that the Talmud don't want you to know.
I am Anti-Talmud and I am proud to say so, as are many Jewish people even in the State called Israel and NY in USA, millions of Jews reject the Talmud Whore, does that make them Anti-Semitic ?
All true Jews hate Islam.
Does the Talmud hate Islam, well not really, as they created it all mainly, or are like a seed planted within that only corrupts, the same game play is at play within Judaism and has been at play from when the OT says that they crept in unawares and corrupted the people they mad a Golden Calf tried to kill Moses and killed all of Gods Prophets and then Jesus.
Not to mention the Jesus said who they were, if you bother to listen to what he says. get yourself a Authorised KJB with the words of Jesus written in red then you may learn something about Jesus for once in your life.
