It is not in the bible.....sola scripture

[BreadOfLife]

And that is ,

Joh_14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

Everything else is secondary.

In John 14, Jesus is speaking to the TWELVE - not to the crowds.
He is speaking to the leaders of His Church. He reiterated this promise at the Last Supper:
John 16:12-15
“I have much more to tell you, but you cannot bear it now.
But when he comes, the Spirit of truth, he will guide you to ALL truth. He will not speak on his own, but he will speak what he hears, and will declare to YOU the things that are coming.

He will glorify me, because he will TAKE from what is MINE and declare it to YOU.
Everything that the Father has is MINE; for this reason I told you that he will TAKE from what is MINE and declare it to YOU.

 

[BreadOfLife]

BOL

Thank you for confirming that the Roman Catholic Catechism is a secondary document. Don't you understand the chronology? If it's backed up by Scripture, Scripture precedes the Catechism, thus making the Catechism a secondary document.

Here is a linked version (each line is linked to the catechism) of the Content of the 'Catechism of the Catholic Church'.

Let's check one emphasis in the RC Catechism to discover if it is backed by Scripture.

The RCC relies on a combination of Tradition and Scripture for its transmission of the message of God. In fact, the Catechism (see below) states: 'the Church, to whom the transmission and interpretation of Revelation is entrusted, "does not derive her certainty about all revealed truths from the holy Scriptures alone. Both Scripture and Tradition must be accepted and honored with equal sentiments of devotion and reverence."'.

II. THE RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN TRADITION AND SACRED SCRIPTURE

One common source. . .

80 "Sacred Tradition and Sacred Scripture, then, are bound closely together, and communicate one with the other. For both of them, flowing out from the same divine well-spring, come together in some fashion to form one thing, and move towards the same goal."40 Each of them makes present and fruitful in the Church the mystery of Christ, who promised to remain with his own "always, to the close of the age".41

. . . two distinct modes of transmission

81 "Sacred Scripture is the speech of God as it is put down in writing under the breath of the Holy Spirit."42

"And [Holy] Tradition transmits in its entirety the Word of God which has been entrusted to the apostles by Christ the Lord and the Holy Spirit. It transmits it to the successors of the apostles so that, enlightened by the Spirit of truth, they may faithfully preserve, expound and spread it abroad by their preaching."43

82 As a result the Church, to whom the transmission and interpretation of Revelation is entrusted, "does not derive her certainty about all revealed truths from the holy Scriptures alone. Both Scripture and Tradition must be accepted and honored with equal sentiments of devotion and reverence."44​

Let's check what Scripture says about the authority of both Scripture and Tradition and whether 'Sacred Tradition and Sacred Scripture, then, are bound closely together, and communicate one with the other' (#80 above):

16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17 so that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work (2 Tim 3:16-17 NIV).​

So, we know from Scripture that it is Scripture that 'is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness'.

Please show me from Scripture that we need Scripture + Tradition and that the RC Church 'does not derive her certainty about all revealed truths from the holy Scriptures alone. Both Scripture and Tradition must be accepted and honored with equal sentiments of devotion and reverence'.

I look forward to your demonstration from Scripture that Scripture + Tradition are necessary for spiritual authority for the church.

Oz

HUH??
I said that the Catechism is a PRIMARY document - not a secondary one.

My whole point was that if you are going to attempt to declare what the Catholic Church teaches, you must go to a the PRIMARY source, which is the Catechism. This is where you will find out what the Church teaches - not from an anti-Catholic Protestant pulpit or from false rumor.

As for evidence from Scripture regarding the authority of Tradition - you need not look any further than 2 Thess. 2:15, where Paul states emphatically:

2 Thess 2:15
"Stand firm and hold fast to the Traditions you were taught, WHETHER BY an oral statement - OR by a letter from us."

Jesus also spoke on numerous occasions regarding the authority Tradition:
Matt 16:16-19
And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it.
I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven. Whatever YOU bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever YOU loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."

Matt. 18:15-18
"If your brother sins (against you), go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have won over your brother.
If he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, so that 'every fact may be established on the testimony of two or three witnesses.'

If he refuses to listen to them, tell the church. If he refuses to listen even to the church, then treat him as you would a Gentile or a tax collector.
Amen, I say to you, whatever YOU bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever YOU loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

Luke 10:16
Whoever listens to YOU listens to ME. Whoever rejects YOU rejects ME. And whoever rejects ME rejects the ONE who sent ME."

John 16:12-15
“I have much more to tell you, but you cannot bear it now.
But when he comes, the Spirit of truth, he will guide you to ALL truth. He will not speak on his own, but he will speak what he hears, and will declare to YOU the things that are coming.
He will glorify me, because he will TAKE from what is MINE and declare it to YOU.

Everything that the Father has is MINE; for this reason I told you that he will TAKE from what is MINE and declare it to YOU.

Jesus declared His CHURCH as the final earthly Authority.
He NEVER made this claim about Scripture . . .

 

[amadeus]

There was no intended defensiveness in what I wrote. I found your comment to be over the top, even an hyperbole.

"Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth." II Tim 2:15

But...

"And further, by these, my son, be admonished: of making many books there is no end; and much study is a weariness of the flesh." Ecc 12:12

And...

"But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you." John 14:26

Do you now understand my point?

 

[amadeus]

Yes, Jesus spoke some parables, but there is much that he said that was narrative and not parable, like this: “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.” (Matt 25:46 NIV).

Please try making that into a parable.
Oz

Because a person does not have an answer to every question you ask does not mean the person is incorrect on the the most important things, does it? Because there are places in which you or I cannot see a parable, does that mean that there is not one in it for one to whom God has given the "eyes to see" it? Who are we to judge what another knows or does not know? I personally believe there are parables in scripture that generally are not called parables. I have certainly considered the idea that the whole of scripture is in effect a parable.

Jesus knew the answer to many questions, but at least once He said that He did not:

"But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father." Mark 13:32

Are we, [you or I or any of the other members on this forum] as knowledgeable about the scriptures and/or the Word of God as was/is Jesus? Is any one of us or even all of us combined as knowledgeable as Jesus about the things of God? Would you declare without any doubt that there is not one thing that our friend @Jun2u could say about the things of God wherein he would be right and you would be wrong? Think about that carefully before answering or perhaps the best answer would be no answer.

"To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven:" Ecc 3:1
"... a time to keep silence, and a time to speak;" Ecc 3:7

 

[twinc]

Because a person does not have an answer to every question you ask does not mean the person is incorrect on the the most important things, does it? Because there are places in which you or I cannot see a parable, does that mean that there is not one in it for one to whom God has given the "eyes to see" it? Who are we to judge what another knows or does not know? I personally believe there are parables in scripture that generally are not called parables. I have certainly considered the idea that the whole of scripture is in effect a parable.

Jesus knew the answer to many questions, but at least once He said that He did not:

"But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father." Mark 13:32

Are we, [you or I or any of the other members on this forum] as knowledgeable about the scriptures and/or the Word of God as was/is Jesus? Is any one of us or even all of us combined as knowledgeable as Jesus about the things of God? Would you declare without any doubt that there is not one thing that our friend @Jun2u could say about the things of God wherein he would be right and you would be wrong? Think about that carefully before answering or perhaps the best answer would be no answer.

"To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven:" Ecc 3:1
"... a time to keep silence, and a time to speak;" Ecc 3:7

yes but our first Pope at 1 Peter advised 'Be prepared to give an answer' and Jesus prepared a way to give an answer imho - twinc

 

[mjrhealth]

In John 14, Jesus is speaking to the TWELVE - not to the crowds.
He is speaking to the leaders of His Church. He reiterated this promise at the Last Supper:
John 16:12-15
“I have much more to tell you, but you cannot bear it now.
But when he comes, the Spirit of truth, he will guide you to ALL truth. He will not speak on his own, but he will speak what he hears, and will declare to YOU the things that are coming.

He will glorify me, because he will TAKE from what is MINE and declare it to YOU.
Everything that the Father has is MINE; for this reason I told you that he will TAKE from what is MINE and declare it to YOU.

No one listen to you, because you shout, and you shout because no one listens to you, Why would they. I am not sure if you are one of the blind doing teh leading or one of teh blind doing the following, this bit.

Mat_15:14 Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.

So I shall leave you be,

But I guess you missed this bit,

Rom_8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

Since you dont believe He "teh Holy Spirit", is for you, i can only presume you are not one of His sons.

 

[OzSpen]

HUH??
I said that the Catechism is a PRIMARY document - not a secondary one.

And I demonstrated to you that the Catechism came AFTER Scripture, thus making it a secondary, and not a primary, document.

 

[OzSpen]

Because a person does not have an answer to every question you ask does not mean the person is incorrect on the the most important things, does it? Because there are places in which you or I cannot see a parable, does that mean that there is not one in it for one to whom God has given the "eyes to see" it? Who are we to judge what another knows or does not know? I personally believe there are parables in scripture that generally are not called parables. I have certainly considered the idea that the whole of scripture is in effect a parable.

Jesus knew the answer to many questions, but at least once He said that He did not:

"But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father." Mark 13:32

Are we, [you or I or any of the other members on this forum] as knowledgeable about the scriptures and/or the Word of God as was/is Jesus? Is any one of us or even all of us combined as knowledgeable as Jesus about the things of God? Would you declare without any doubt that there is not one thing that our friend @Jun2u could say about the things of God wherein he would be right and you would be wrong? Think about that carefully before answering or perhaps the best answer would be no answer.

"To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven:" Ecc 3:1
"... a time to keep silence, and a time to speak;" Ecc 3:7

You did not address the topic I raised of Jesus making statements that were NOT parables. Therefore, this makes your response a red herring.

 

[OzSpen]

Because a person does not have an answer to every question you ask does not mean the person is incorrect on the the most important things, does it? Because there are places in which you or I cannot see a parable, does that mean that there is not one in it for one to whom God has given the "eyes to see" it? Who are we to judge what another knows or does not know? I personally believe there are parables in scripture that generally are not called parables. I have certainly considered the idea that the whole of scripture is in effect a parable.

So, are you saying that some other people have a 'deeper understanding' and have 'eyes to see' spiritual reality and this deeper, unseen knowledge is not seen my you or me?

 

[BreadOfLife]

No one listen to you, because you shout, and you shout because no one listens to you, Why would they. I am not sure if you are one of the blind doing teh leading or one of teh blind doing the following, this bit.

Mat_15:14 Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.
So I shall leave you be,

But I guess you missed this bit,
Rom_8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

Since you dont believe He "teh Holy Spirit", is for you, i can only presume you are not one of His sons.

In other words - you have nothing useful to add to the conversation.
That's what I thought . . .

 

[bbyrd009]

You did not address the topic I raised of Jesus making statements that were NOT parables. Therefore, this makes your response a red herring.

i addressed it, you ignored it

 

[BreadOfLife]

And I demonstrated to you that the Catechism came AFTER Scripture, thus making it a secondary, and not a primary, document.

The Catechism is a PRIMARY source for learning what the Church teaches.

Again - the whole point is that when you are going to talk about what the Catholic Church believes in and teaches - you must go to the Catechism and not a Jack Chick tract . . .

 

[bbyrd009]

So, are you saying that some other people have a 'deeper understanding' and have 'eyes to see' spiritual reality and this deeper, unseen knowledge is not seen my you or me?

ha c'mon OZ, do you have an understanding of every passage of Scripture? i sure don't

 

[bbyrd009]

The Catechism is a PRIMARY source for learning what the Church teaches.

Again - the whole point is that when you are going to talk about what the Catholic Church believes in and teaches - you must go to the Catechism and not a Jack Chick tract . . .

this alone puts Catholicism outside of Christianity, at least practically speaking. But you're dying to be recognized as a "Christian," so you will take that wrong i guess

 

[BreadOfLife]

this alone puts Catholicism outside of Christianity, at least practically speaking. But you're dying to be recognized as a "Christian," so you will take that wrong i guess

How does the Catechism put Catholicism "outside" of Christianity?
Please enlighten me . . .

 

[bbyrd009]

How does the Catechism put Catholicism "outside" of Christianity?
Please enlighten me . . .

i'm afraid our definitions are just too at odds for me to give a very acceptable reply there, BoL; but hopefully you might see that i mean "Ecumenical Christianity," and i don't mean to imply that Catechism may not lead one to a closer walk with Christ, ok. But that it is not regarded in Mainstream Christianity, it is obviously extra-Canon, but yet you regard it as "primary." etc

 

[BreadOfLife]

i'm afraid our definitions are just too at odds for me to give a very acceptable reply there, BoL; but hopefully you might see that i mean "Ecumenical Christianity," and i don't mean to imply that Catechism may not lead one to a closer walk with Christ, ok. But that it is not regarded in Mainstream Christianity, it is obviously extra-Canon, but yet you regard it as "primary." etc

I find it fascinating how you people don't understand that it is a primary source for Catholic teaching - just as the Constitution is a primary source for U.S. Law.

If you want to know how the Government is structures - you go to the Constitution.
If you want to know what the Catholic Church teaches, you go to the Catechism of the Catholic Church.

Not that difficult to understand . . .

 

[amadeus]

You did not address the topic I raised of Jesus making statements that were NOT parables. Therefore, this makes your response a red herring.

Sorry my response does not fit into your guidelines.

 

[amadeus]

So, are you saying that some other people have a 'deeper understanding' and have 'eyes to see' spiritual reality and this deeper, unseen knowledge is not seen my you or me?

If that is the way God saw fit to give put out His information. Who but God increases any of us? Can we study the Bible and thereby receive all of His truth? I think not, not unless it is God's will for us to do so.

 

[bbyrd009]

I find it fascinating how you people don't understand that it is a primary source for Catholic teaching - just as the Constitution is a primary source for U.S. Law.

If you want to know how the Government is structures - you go to the Constitution.
If you want to know what the Catholic Church teaches, you go to the Catechism of the Catholic Church.

Not that difficult to understand . . .

it's not that this is misunderstood so much as it is not heard the same way by a Protestant, i guess. Iow a Prot hears this as "the Bible is not our primary source."