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It is not in the bible.....sola scripture

Discussion in 'Christian Apologetics Forum' started by twinc, Apr 3, 2017.

  1. Jun2u

    Jun2u Well-Known Member

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    You said:
    These days when two don't agree, one is told to take it up with God.
    Problem is that YOU are in the minority.

    Really? I guess you have not read about the 450 Baal worshipers against Elijah in 1 King 18:17-46. Sorry, but consensus does NOT make a thing right! But then again, in a sense, I must admit you are correct: for there are more unsaved people in the world than saved.

    You said:
    Mostly all (I said mostly) theologians agree that there is a place called hell -- whatever that may be.

    Theologians are not God. Their commentaries might be a help, but they are not authoritative.

    You said:
    You can't really go by the O.T. since they understood death and hell to be different. As you must know, there's more than one word for hell in Hebrew.

    The Bible is one cohesive whole. It has only one message from Genesis to Revelation! Death and hell may have many different words in Hebrew but the end result is still the same.

    You said:
    It would be interesting to have your take on Luke 16, the Rich Man and Lazarus...

    The story of Lazarus and the Rich Man in Luke 16 is a parable, and therefore, must be discerned spiritually. It is a type or figure, or a shadow of something real to come.

    God here is teaching that Lazarus, who represented all believers and who had nothing, was in the highest bliss in the bosom of Abraham, representing God Himself (believers are safe in the arms of God). While in contrast, the rich man who had everything in life, now is in hell.

    Remember, the above is a parable. If we want to learn about hell and damnation, and death we have go to another part of the Bible, and Isaiah 16:24 is the best passage to read that describes hell. Hell is a state of condition not a place!


    To God Be The Glory
     
  2. GodsGrace

    GodsGrace Well-Known Member

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    Ask around...
    You'll discover that Luke 16 is NOT a parable.
    In what parable did Jesus ever name a person?
    Where did persons go BEFORE the resurrection?
    Did they not go to Abraham's Bossom to await the resurrection?...
    Yes. They did.

    The story of Lazarus and the rich man shows exactly what happens to persons when they die. Those that are damned are going where they belong, those that believe in Jesus NOW go directly to heaven since the gates of heaven were opened after Jesus' sacrifice.

    This explanation, which I did not invent, does not suit your belief system and so you'll insist it's a parable.

    The Bossom of Abraham is a place where those who died before Jesus' resurrection went to await same. It does not represent God.
    Please post somewhere where this is written.

    Maybe you SHOULD read some commentaries. HOW else do you come to your conclusions? What church taught you this? How did you learn of it? Certainly not from a mainline church.

    The rich man and Lazarus.

    Here the spiritual things are represented, in a description of the different state of good and bad, in this world and in the other. We are not told that the rich man got his estate by fraud, or oppression; but Christ shows, that a man may have a great deal of the wealth, pomp, and pleasure of this world, yet perish for ever under God's wrath and curse. The sin of this rich man was his providing for himself only. Here is a godly man, and one that will hereafter be happy for ever, in

    the depth of adversity and distress. It is often the lot of some of the dearest of God's saints and servants to be greatly afflicted in this world. We are not told that the rich man did him any harm, but we do not find that he had any care for him. Here is the different condition of this godly poor man, and this wicked rich man, at and after death. The rich man in hell lifted up his eyes, being in torment. It is not probable that there are discourses between glorified saints and damned sinners,

    but this dialogue shows the hopeless misery and fruitless desires, to which condemned spirits are brought. There is a day coming, when those who now hate and despise the people of God, would gladly receive kindness from them. But the damned in hell shall not have the least abatement of their torment. Sinners are now called upon to remember; but they do not, they will not, they find ways to avoid it. As wicked people have good things only in this life, and at death are for ever separated from

    all good, so godly people have evil things only in this life, and at death they are for ever put from them. In this world, blessed be God, there is no gulf between a state of nature and grace, we may pass from sin to God; but if we die in our sins, there is no coming out. The rich man had five brethren, and would have them stopped in their sinful course; their coming to that place of torment, would make his misery the worse, who had helped to show them the way thither. How many would now desire

    to recall or to undo what they have written or done! Those who would make the rich man's praying to Abraham justify praying to saints departed, go far to seek for proofs, when the mistake of a damned sinner is all they can find for an example. And surely there is no encouragement to follow the example, when all his prayers were made in vain. A messenger from the dead could say no more than what is said in the Scriptures. The same strength of corruption that breaks through the convictions of the

    written word, would triumph over a witness from the dead. Let us seek to the law and to the testimony, Isa 8:19, 20, for that is the sure word of prophecy, upon which we may rest, 2Pe 1:19. Circumstances in every age show that no terrors, or arguments, can give true repentance without the special grace of God renewing the sinner's heart.

    Source:
    Luke 16 Commentary - The rich man and Lazarus. - BibleGateway.com


    *****************************************************

    26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, that they that would pass from hence to you may not be able, and that none may cross over from thence to us. [We have here a clear statement of the separation which parts the good from the evil in the future state. But it has been urged that the coloring and phraseology of this parable is derived from rabbinical teaching, that our Lord made use of a current but erroneous Jewish notion to teach a valuable lesson, and that therefore it is not safe to draw any inferences from the narrative relative to the future state. But it should be observed that the parables of Jesus never introduce fictitious conditions, nor do they anywhere violate the order and course of nature. It is hardly possible that he could have made this an exception to his rule, especially since it is in a field where all the wisdom of the world is insufficient to make the slightest correction. Moreover, it is certainly impossible that he could exaggerate the differences between the states of the lost and saved in the hereafter. Nor can the teaching of the parable be set aside on the ground that it represents merely the intermediate Philippians 1:23 ), and refutes the doctrine of Universalism, for the gulf is, 1, fixed, and, 2, can not be passed or bridged. The gulf of pride and caste between the rich man and Lazarus while on earth was easy to cross.]

    Source:
    Parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus. Commentary - The Fourfold Gospel

    ****************************************************

    And on and on...
    Also see
    John 5:28-29

    We must either beleive that Jesus knew what He was speaking of, or that He didn't.
     
  3. OzSpen

    OzSpen Well-Known Member

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    There you go! You've proved that the the Catholic Church Catechism is a secondary document because the footnotes came before it. AND the Scriptures came before it. You confirm this with your statement that the CCC is a 'condensed form of the footnotes', thus making the footnotes the primary document.

    How come? The Ithaca College Library differentiates:
    • 'A primary source provides direct or firsthand evidence about an event, object, person, or work of art'.
    • 'Secondary sources describe, discuss, interpret, comment upon, analyze, evaluate, summarize, and process primary sources' (source).
    It sure pays to know the difference between primary and secondary sources but you don't want to accept that difference that places the CCC in the category of a secondary source.

    Oz
     
    Last edited: Oct 28, 2017
  4. BreadOfLife

    BreadOfLife Well-Known Member

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    And neither do yours pertaining to my alleged use of "red herrings" and "Straw men" - which you and mjrhealth repeatedly failed to present . . .
     
  5. BreadOfLife

    BreadOfLife Well-Known Member

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    And my point all along was that it is indeed a primary source for Catholic doctrine - unlike wikipedia, which is what ignorant anti-Catholics employ . . .
     
  6. OzSpen

    OzSpen Well-Known Member

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    You've jumped in before I finished composing what I wrote here. Is Ithaca College Library a sufficiently accurate source for differentiation of primary vs secondary sources online?

    Kepha's post demonstrates that the CCC is a secondary source because he, a Roman Catholic, stated that 'the CCC is in condensed form of the footnotes', thus making the footnotes the primary source and the CCC an interpreted version of the footnotes (and Scripture).

    CCC is thus not a primary source for RC doctrine. It's a secondary source, just as the Westminster Confession of Faith is a secondary source (and regarded as a subordinate standard) for Presbyterian and Reformed Churches.

    Oz
     
  7. OzSpen

    OzSpen Well-Known Member

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    What a joke!

    [​IMG]
     
  8. BreadOfLife

    BreadOfLife Well-Known Member

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    Since you seem to be having a difficult time understanding all of this - let me ask YOU a question.
    What is THE primary source for Catholic teaching and doctrine?
     
    FHII likes this.
  9. BreadOfLife

    BreadOfLife Well-Known Member

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    Actually - false accusations are never funny.
    All you and mjrhealth achieved here was exposing your shortcomings . . .
     
  10. FHII

    FHII Well-Known Member

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    Yes exactly! I got the feeling from the recent posts in the thread that "primary sources" meant "more important sources". Its just not what it means. They can be and often times are. But their importance doesn't make them a primary source. Sometimes secondary sources are more important in that they explain more and have the whole picture.

    I am bot Catholic, so please correct me if needed. I did a crash course on the Catechisms. In viewing 3 or 4 references (including the Vatican's website) I gather the the catachisms are in a nutshell the doctrines of the Catholic Church. Their purpose is not to report the historical accounts of Jesus and the Apostles (though they reference it). It thus is a primary source because it was written by Catholics at the time they settled what was Catholic Doctrine. That makes it a primary source. If they discuss what Jesus, Peter or Paul did (years after the act) while forming their doctrine, that portion is a secondary source.

    So when someone says the Catechisms are a primary source, it isn't saying its above the Bible in importance. It has nothing to do with importance. The Bible also is a primary source in many of its books (not all).

    Do I have that right?
     
  11. FHII

    FHII Well-Known Member

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  12. FHII

    FHII Well-Known Member

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    Ozspen

    I don't need them to provide evidence. I don't need to invite anyone back. The evidence is already there! They already spoke. I am pointing to things already said.

    I referenced 60 posts and what I saw. Ok I get it. Thats a lot of backtracking. Maybe you just don't want to do it. Well I did it. And the evidence is there.

    I actually did a report and have statistics!

    Out of 61 posts, 27% contain bickering. I present 2 in particular: #1279 and 1280 where someone said stop the sniping and flaming.

    8% have to do with what a primary source is. 6% have to do with an extremely illogical claim that if you agree with one thing Calvin said you must agree with everything he said.

    20% was wasted on someone not knowing how to use this board technically and attributing posts to others as being responses to them.

    And 27% were arguements about red herrings. Incidently, what I did not do is document how many people were or weren't involved. Rough estimate... 5 out of 8 were involved.

    Overall, 74% of the posts between 1230 and 1280 had these 5 things involved.

    So I need to prove that? Thats like asking for proof that there is water on earth.
     
    Last edited: Oct 28, 2017
  13. FHII

    FHII Well-Known Member

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    Absolutely not! Again, I am not a Catholic amd not well versed in the Catischisms. But I do kbow history and the structure of the field.

    The footnotes are not the doctrines. The Catachisms are. The footnotes are there to further explain the abbreviated idea. The fact that the Catechisms tell tell teaching makes it a primary aource.
     
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  14. epostle1

    epostle1 Well-Known Member

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    Yes. The Catechism is both primary and secondary. There is no need to create another false dichotomy of either/or when it is both/and.
     
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  15. OzSpen

    OzSpen Well-Known Member

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    I've already given that information in this thread at #1303. Seems like you are not reading what I write. If you continue like this, I'll disengage with you.
     
  16. OzSpen

    OzSpen Well-Known Member

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    Catechism is the correct spelling.
     
  17. BreadOfLife

    BreadOfLife Well-Known Member

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    Sooooo, your answer is that the footnotes are the primary source for Catholic doctrine??
    DEAD wrong.

    As FHII put it - "The footnotes are there to further explain the abbreviated idea."
    Is that your final answer?
     
  18. BreadOfLife

    BreadOfLife Well-Known Member

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    And "Footnotes" is the incorrect answer . . .
     
  19. epostle1

    epostle1 Well-Known Member

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    Scripture is the primary source for Catholic doctrine, and always has been. But there is nothing in scripture that says scripture is the ONLY source. (ALL Scripture...does not mean exclusivly Scripture) Writing was not abolished after John wrote Revelation, and post-biblical writings have never been considered on par with scripture.
    The Catechism is a primary source for Catholic teaching, provided it is used properly. It contains secondary sources, but dividing and separating into what is primary and what is secondary is an exercise in futility because the Catechism is an organic whole. It's both/and, not either/or.

    V. Practical Directions for Using this Catechism

    18 This catechism is conceived as an organic presentation of the Catholic faith in its entirety. It should be seen therefore as a unified whole. Numerous cross-references in the margin of the text (numbers found at the end of a sentence referring to other paragraphs that deal with the same theme), as well as the analytical index at the end of the volume, allow the reader to view each theme in its relationship with the entirety of the faith.

    19 The texts of Sacred Scripture are often not quoted word for word but are merely indicated by a reference (cf.). For a deeper understanding of such passages, the reader should refer to the Scriptural texts themselves. Such Biblical references are a valuable working-tool in catechesis.

    20 The use of small print in certain passages indicates observations of an historical or apologetic nature, or supplementary doctrinal explanations.

    21 The quotations, also in small print, from patristic, liturgical, magisterial or hagiographical sources, are intended to enrich the doctrinal presentations. These texts have often been chosen with a view to direct catechetical use.

    22 At the end of each thematic unit, a series of brief texts in small italics sums up the essentials of that unit's teaching in condensed formulae. These "IN BRIEF" summaries may suggest to local catechists brief summary formulae that could be memorized.

    Catechism of the Catholic Church
     
  20. DPMartin

    DPMartin Well-Known Member

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    there is such thing as sola scripture:



    1Sa 13:5 And the Philistines gathered themselves together to fight with Israel, thirty thousand chariots, and six thousand horsemen, and people as the sand which is on the sea shore in multitude: and they came up, and pitched in Michmash, eastward from Bethaven. 6 When the men of Israel saw that they were in a strait, (for the people were distressed,) then the people did hide themselves in caves, and in thickets, and in rocks, and in high places, and in pits. 7 And some of the Hebrews went over Jordan to the land of Gad and Gilead. As for Saul, he was yet in Gilgal, and all the people followed him trembling. 8 And he tarried seven days, according to the set time that Samuel had appointed: but Samuel came not to Gilgal; and the people were scattered from him. 9 And Saul said, Bring hither a burnt offering to me, and peace offerings. And he offered the burnt offering. 10 And it came to pass, that as soon as he had made an end of offering the burnt offering, behold, Samuel came; and Saul went out to meet him, that he might salute him. 11 And Samuel said, What hast thou done? And Saul said, Because I saw that the people were scattered from me, and that thou camest not within the days appointed, and that the Philistines gathered themselves together at Michmash; 12 Therefore said I, The Philistines will come down now upon me to Gilgal, and I have not made supplication unto the LORD: I forced myself therefore, and offered a burnt offering. 13 And Samuel said to Saul, Thou hast done foolishly: thou hast not kept the commandment of the LORD thy God, which he commanded thee: for now would the LORD have established thy kingdom upon Israel for ever. 14 But now thy kingdom shall not continue: the LORD hath sought him a man after his own heart, and the LORD hath commanded him to be captain over his people, because thou hast not kept that which the LORD commanded thee.


    hence souly what God says. not an authorities judgement of what God says, what God says which is the expression of His Judgement. most in western culture don't understand that man's purpose is to execute God's Judgments in the earth. even the Muslims understand this, but their problem is the idol of Muhammad the prophet of Islam was found in the building of idols in Mecca, and is not the Living God of Abraham.

    so it is sola scripture "Word of God" if you like. even what happened in the garden is the first example.

    Gen 3:17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, (hence not the Voice of the Lord.) and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;

    so its in scripture that God wants and expects and requires sola scripture, and anyone trying to justify anything else but the Word of God, intends to deceive.
     
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