It is not in the bible.....sola scripture

[Spurgeon's Girl]

so why is it believed and accepted that Mary had children other than Jesus - twinc

Because the Bible said she did.

Mark 6:3
3 Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary and brother of James and Joses and Judas and Simon? And are not his sisters here with us?” And they took offense at him.

Matthew 13:55-56
55 Is not this the carpenter's son? Is not his mother called Mary? And are not his brothers James and Joseph and Simon and Judas? 56 And are not all his sisters with us? Where then did this man get all these things?”

Mark 3:31-32
31 And his mother and his brothers came, and standing outside they sent to him and called him. 32 And a crowd was sitting around him, and they said to him, “Your mother and your brothers are outside, seeking you.”

Galatians 1:19
19 But I saw none of the other apostles except James the Lord's brother.

 

[Spurgeon's Girl]

You are not answering anything. You are just avoiding the issue.

But if you want to be stubborn about it then go ahead. Believe in yourself and not the Bible.

Fact: The Bible nowhere says that Mary and Joseph had sex.

No, he isn't. Tell us what 'UNTIL' means to you in the context of the verse.

 

[Mungo]

That's the teaching of the RCC but it is not based on the Bible. I've provided you with the biblical evidence at #1599. Be honest: Jesus can't have any half brothers ans sisters without the sexual intercourse of Joseph & Mary. If Mary didn't give birth to these extra children, did she have extra-marital sex with somebody.

We've been through all this but here it is again:

The first point is that there are different kinds of brothers (and sisters) - full blood brothers, half brothers, adoptive brothers. If a man and woman marry and both have children by a previous marriage they will be regarded as brothers and sisters even though they have no genetic relationship. The actual relationship of these “brothers” to Jesus cannot be established unless a genealogy is given, and it is not.

Secondly the word brother can be used in a very loose sense. In Aramaic there is no word for cousin and the word for brother (aha) would include cousin or even nephew. Whilst Greek does include a word for cousin but it is quite possible to translators/writers just used the Greek adelphos to replace the Aramaic aha. Moreover the Greek word for brother (adelphos) was also used very loosely for various degrees of kinship.

In the Greek translation of the Old Testament (the LXX) the word adelphos is used for Lot’s nephew (Gen 14:14). Other similar examples can be given.

Paul says in Col 4:7 & 9
“Tychicus, my beloved brother (adelphos)……..together with Onesimus, a trustworthy and beloved brother (adelphos)”. We know from the letter to Philemon that Onesimus was actually a runaway slave, not Paul’s brother (or cousin).

Thirdly there indications in scripture that the brothers and sisters referred to in Mt 13:55 (and the equivalent in other gospels) are not Jesus brothers in any genetic sense.
Mark says that at the foot of the cross was “Mary the mother of the younger James and of Joses (Joseph), and Salome” This was obviously not Mary the mother of Jesus, so there is another Mary with sons called James and Joseph.

Matthew similarly says of the women at the foot of the cross “Among them were Mary Magdalene and Mary the mother of James and Joseph” (Mt 26:56)

Luke says that at the tomb were “Mary Magdalene, Joanna, and Mary the mother of James” (Lk 24:10)

John says “Standing by the cross of Jesus were his mother and his mother’s sister, Mary the wife of Clopas, and Mary of Magdala.” (Jn 19:25). Now this could mean that Jesus’ mother’s sister was there (whatever is meant by “sister”) and Mary the wife of Clopas or they were the same person, but either way there were at least three Mary’s at the cross – Mary the mother of Jesus, Mary the wife of Clopas and Mary of Magdalene. Now Mary the mother of James and Joseph could have been a fourth or she could have been Mary wife of Clopas. Either way Mary the mother of Jesus was not the mother of James and Joseph mentioned as Jesus’ brothers. And since they were listed first, neither was Simon and Judas, since if the were they would hardly have been listed after non-brothers.

The Church historian Eusebius quoting from Hegesippus (110-180 AD) writes

After the martyrdom of James and the conquest of Jerusalem which immediately followed, it is said that those of the apostles and disciples of the Lord that were still living came together from all directions with those that were related to the Lord according to the flesh (for the majority of them also were still alive) to take counsel as to who was worthy to succeed James. They all with one consent pronounced Symeon, the son of Clopas, of whom the Gospel also makes mention; to be worthy of the episcopal throne of that parish. He was a cousin, as they say, of the Saviour. For Hegesippus records that Clopas was a brother of Joseph.

So Symeon (Simeon, Simon) was the cousin of Jesus, and Mary Clopas was therefore the sister-in-law of Mary the mother of Jesus. Again note the loose use of relationships. Mary Clopas is referred to as Mary’s “sister” in Jn 19:25 when she is actually her sister-in-law.

In the book of Jude he says “Jude, a slave of Jesus Christ and brother of James” (Jude 1:1) So Jude (or Judas) is probably the brother of James the son of Clopas.

Then also Luke when listing the apostles says James, son of Alpheus. But the Aramaic Alpheus can be rendered in Greek as either Alpheus or Clopas. So again James, the “brother” of the Lord is probably the son of Clopas.

Then there is this text:
So his brothers said to him, “Leave here and go to Judea, so that your disciples also may see the works you are doing. No one works in secret if he wants to be known publicly. If you do these things, manifest yourself to the world.” (Jn 7:3-4) If Mary had other children these “brothers” would be younger that Jesus. But in that culture to speak to an older brother in this way would be extremely rude. So it would seem likely they were older than Jesus and therefore could not have been Mary’s children.

 

[Mungo]

The Bible says that Jesus had brothers and sisters. Please demonstrate how children can be born without parents having sex.

See post #1623

 

[Mungo]

To whom are you replying? Would you please learn to back quote? Perhaps you are back quoting and I have the person on 'ignore'. I'd appreciate your clarification.

Replying to 101G

Perhaps you have him on ignore, which is probably a good idea. I might do that.

 

[Mungo]

Mungo,

That is not true. Let's look at one verse, Matt 12:46 (ESV): 'While he was still speaking to the people, behold, his mother and his brothers stood outside, asking to speak to him'.

'His brothers' in the Greek is: καὶ οἱ ἀδελφοὶ αὐτοῦ = and the brothers of him. The plural οἱ ἀδελφοὶ (the brothers) can mean 'brothers' or 'brothers and sisters', depending on the context. Here it refers to Jesus' mother and his brothers. How are the brothers conceived? By sex between a male and female. For them to be 'his brothers', by deduction they have to come from sex between Joseph and Mary.

The perpetual virginity of Mary, no matter which denominations or leaders support the doctrine, did not come from the Bible. It is from the minds of human beings.

Oz

See post #1623

 

[Mungo]

@BreadOfLife , @101G , @OzSpen
Regarding Mt 1:25 and the "until", there was a radio debate between Gerry Matatics (Cathiolic) and James White and Eric Svendsen (Protestant) regarding the Perpetual Virginity of Mary where this came up.

Quotes below in red are from a post by Robert Sungenis commenting on this debate.
The Heõs Hou polemic is over: Radio Debate Matatics VS White & Svendsen on Perpetual Virginity Mary
Eric Svendsen claims that the use of “heos hou” in Matthew 1:25 (which is translated by the English word “until” in the sentence “...he knew her not until she bore a son”), is a special Greek phrase that terminates the action of the main clause “knew her not.” In other words, Svendsen claims that Joseph’s state of “not knowing Mary” terminated at the point when Mary bore Jesus, which means that Mary, according to Svendsen, had sexual relations with Joseph after Jesus was born.
This is 101G's argument

As a side note, Svendsen admits that the Greek word “heos” (“until”), used by itself, can either terminate or continue the action of the main clause. But it is his contention that when “heos” is coupled with “hou” in the phrase “heos hou” in the period under discussion, it NEVER continues the action of the main clause. He admits that prior to and after the period of 100 B.C to 100 A.D. “heos hou” was sometimes used to continue the action of the main clause, but that for some reason (which he never really explains) the meaning of “heos hou” which allowed a continuation of the main clause suddenly dropped out of existence. It just so happens that Matthew’s gospel was written in this particular time period.

Matatics on the other hand contended that the Greek heos hou did continue the action of the main clause, not terminate it during this time period (100 BC to 100AD) and gave an example..

As I stated above, Mr. Matatics provided a reference, between the years of 100 B.C. and 100 A.D, in which “heos hou” continued the action of the main verb. Here is the reference he gave:

And Aseneth was left alone with the seven virgins, and she continued to be weighed down and weep UNTIL the sun set. And she ate no bread and drank no water. And the night fell, and all (people) in the house slept, and she alone was awake and continued to brood and to weep; and she often struck her breast with (her) hand and kept being filled with great fear and trembled (with) heavy trembling. ​

First, the reference for this comes from the work of C. Burchard, in the story titled “Joseph and Aseneth,” which is found in the Old Testament Pseudepigrapha. Vol. 2, Expansions of the Old Testament and Legends, Wisdom and Philosophical Literature, Prayers, Psalms, and Odes, Fragments of Lost Judeo-Hellenistic Works, ed. James H.Charlesworth, p. 215. New York: Doubleday, 1985.

Second, the word “UNTIL” in the clause “weep UNTIL the sun set” is the Greek phrase “heos hou.” You will notice if you read the sentence in context that Aseneth cried until the sun went down, but she continued to cry way into the night when everyone else was asleep. Here we have a classic case of “heos hou” continuing the action of the main clause, for the context itself tells us there is no other possibility. There are only two available choices: either “heos hou” terminates the action of the main clause, or continues it. It certainly does not terminate it in this incident, otherwise, Aseneth would have stopped crying and not continued when the sun set.

 

[101G]

Replying to 101G

Perhaps you have him on ignore, which is probably a good idea. I might do that.

first thanks for all your replies, second,
A. I have never put, nor will put anyone on Ignore, by any divice here on the site. that's up to the individual.

@BreadOfLife , @101G , @OzSpen
Regarding Mt 1:25 and the "until", there was a radio debate between Gerry Matatics (Cathiolic) and James White and Eric Svendsen (Protestant) regarding the Perpetual Virginity of Mary where this came up.

B. I can care less what any debate on a word can produce, God's revelation is the only TRUTH.

and you said,

Second, the word “UNTIL” in the clause “weep UNTIL the sun set” is the Greek phrase “heos hou.” You will notice if you read the sentence in context that Aseneth cried until the sun went down, but she continued to cry way into the night when everyone else was asleep. Here we have a classic case of “heos hou” continuing the action of the main clause, for the context itself tells us there is no other possibility. There are only two available choices: either “heos hou” terminates the action of the main clause, or continues it. It certainly does not terminate it in this incident, otherwise, Aseneth would have stopped crying and not continued when the sun set.

are you that blind, listen once more,
Matthew 1:25 "And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS."
WHAT terminated the action of till here in matthews 1:25 is she having her first born son... (nine months worth of TILLs... (smile),but when she had that first born son THAT ended the "TILL", of not KNOWING, or having sex with her.

see some can cry all night and the next day but a point will come will they STOP crying. so it makes no difference if she cried a 1200 years, but one day "TILL" she will STOP.... (smile),

so thanks for confirming what we have already said.

Another successful sabotage operation.

PICJAG
101G The "Spiritual Saboteur"

 

[Mungo]

first thanks for all your replies, second,
A. I have never put, nor will put anyone on Ignore, by any divice here on the site. that's up to the individual.

B. I can care less what any debate on a word can produce, God's revelation is the only TRUTH.

and you said,

are you that blind, listen once more,
Matthew 1:25 "And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS."
WHAT terminated the action of till here in matthews 1:25 is she having her first born son... (nine months worth of TILLs... (smile),but when she had that first born son THAT ended the "TILL", of not KNOWING, or having sex with her.

see some can cry all night and the next day but a point will come will they STOP crying. so it makes no difference if she cried a 1200 years, but one day "TILL" she will STOP.... (smile),

so thanks for confirming what we have already said.

Another successful sabotage operation.

PICJAG
101G The "Spiritual Saboteur"

Of course, as usual, you are in denial.
And you obviously failed to read what was said.
Let me summarise the main points as you find reading long passages difficult
The words translated until are the Greek phrase "heos hou". Heous hou continues the action of the main clause (as the example showed).
Therefore in Mt 1:25 the Greek heous hou continues the action "he knew her not".

If you read the article concerned you might also note one of the standard tactics used by some Protestants against Catholics:
1. Set some finely tuned parameter - in this case between 100 BC and 100 AD
2. Give no reason for this parameter.
3. When proven wrong go into abuse rather than admit they were wrong.

 

[101G]

Of course, as usual, you are in denial.
And you obviously failed to read what was said.
Let me summarise the main points as you find reading long passages difficult
The words translated until are the Greek phrase "heos hou". Heous hou continues the action of the main clause (as the example showed).
Therefore in Mt 1:25 the Greek heous hou continues the action "he knew her not".

If you read the article concerned you might also note one of the standard tactics used by some Protestants against Catholics:
1. Set some finely tuned parameter - in this case between 100 BC and 100 AD
2. Give no reason for this parameter.
3. When proven wrong go into abuse rather than admit they were wrong.

first thanks for the reply, second, sorry if your explination can't hold water, but see post #1628... (smile). YIKES!''

PICJAG
101G The "Spiritual Saboteur"

 

[Mungo]

first thanks for the reply, second, sorry if your explination can't hold water, but see post #1628... (smile). YIKES!''

PICJAG
101G The "Spiritual Saboteur"

Post #1628 just shows you in denial..

 

[101G]

Post #1628 just shows you in denial..

first thanks for reply, but facts cannot be denied, and truth cannot be denied.

those scriptures are living proof that Mary was not a perpetual virgin

see you can bring a horse/an unbelieving christian to the water/truth, but can't make them drink the TRUTH.

the scriptures, are clear, 2 Thessalonians 2:11 "And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:"

so, see ya.

PICJAG
101G The "Spiritual Saboteur"

 

[BreadOfLife]

glad you responded, because @Mungo gave me nothing as you. listen to the scripture, Matthew 1:25 "And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS."

so the word till
G2193 ἕως heos (he'-ōs) conj.
1. a conjunction, preposition and adverb of continuance.
2. (of time and place) until.
3. (of state or position) unto, even unto.
4. (of place) up to.
5. (of duration) for as long as.
6. (as a question, with G4219) (How long; not expressed in English, redundant).
7. (of distance) as far as to.
8. (of quantity) so much as.
9. (of movement) to (i.e. top to bottom).
[of uncertain affinity]
KJV: even (until, unto), (as) far (as), how long, (un-)til(-l), (hither-, un-, up) to, while(-s)
Compare: G891, G3360

notice definition #5. 5. (of duration) for as long as. NOW, for Long as what? "she had brought forth her firstborn son". and after her firstborn son, he had sex with her... (smile). so no you nor Mungo change anything. Mary is not a virgin anymore. AND NO, SHE IS NOT AS WHITE AS THE DRIVEN SNOW, but sge have been driven...

and as for the term "FIRST BORN", don't nessary indicate only... LOL. is that which first opens the womb of its mother.

so no, you two have no foundation to stand on but a LIE. now for example, let hear the Lord Jesus, Matthew 5:25 "Agree with thine adversary quickly, whiles thou art in the way with him; lest at any time the adversary deliver thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and thou be cast into prison."Matthew 5:26 "Verily I say unto thee, Thou shalt by no means come out thence, till thou hast paid the uttermost farthing." till when? thou hast paid the uttermost farthing.

and Joseph didn't have sex with his wife Mary "till".. or untill she brought forth here first born... again you have been reproved.

boy oh boy you'll are dense.

NEXT...

Another successful sabotage operation.

PICJAG
101G The "Spiritual Saboteur"

First of all - let smash your idea about "Firstborn" again . . .

According to Rabbinic teaching, the term "firstborn" is defined as follows:
The firstborn of one's mother is referred to in the Bible (Exodus 13:2) as one who "opens the womb" of his mother.
(Kitzur Shulchan Aruch. Translated by Rabbi Avrohom Davis. Metsudah Publishers, 1996. P. 717)

Next - as to your argument for the word "Until" (till/heos) - you've already been given given you several Biblical examples of this word that do NOT require a subsequent action (Deut. 34:6, 2 Sam. 6:23, Psalm 110:1, Matt 22:44, Acts 2:34-35). Until you can explain your way out of these verses - you have LOST this argument. By the way - definition #9 states "of UNCERTAIN" affinity".

PS - If this is too complicated for you - look up the word "subsequent" . . .

 

[101G]

First of all - let smash your idea about "Firstborn" again . . .

According to Rabbinic teaching, the term "firstborn" is defined as follows:
The firstborn of one's mother is referred to in the Bible (Exodus 13:2) as one who "opens the womb" of his mother.
(Kitzur Shulchan Aruch. Translated by Rabbi Avrohom Davis. Metsudah Publishers, 1996. P. 717)

Next - as to your argument for the word "Until" (till/heos) - you've already been given given you several Biblical examples of this word that do NOT require a subsequent action (Deut. 34:6, 2 Sam. 6:23, Psalm 110:1, Matt 22:44, Acts 2:34-35). Until you can explain your way out of these verses - you have LOST this argument. By the way - definition #9 states "of UNCERTAIN" affinity".

PS - If this is too complicated for you - look up the word "subsequent" . . .

look first born means nothing when it comes to sex between a man and a woman, i can care lees if it was a last born. the fact is that Joseph and Mary had sex after christ was born.

now Matthew 1:18 clearly defines this action of sex. "Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost."

if Joseph and Mary "NEVER" had sex, this would have never been in the scriptures. no need to say this.

so you can take your Rabbinic teaching and head right back out the door with them... (smile)... lol. the scriptures don't lie.

now as for definition,
"coming together"
G4905 συνέρχομαι sunerchomai (sïn-er'-cho-mai) v.
1. to convene, depart in company with, associate with.
2. (specially, maritally) cohabit.
[from G4862 and G2064]
KJV: accompany, assemble (with), come (together), come (company, go) with, resort
Root(s): G4862, G2064

definition #2. seals the deal, as well as Matthews 1:25.

now if you do not have any concrete evidence showing else wise, and you ponder your same old scriptures, and statements, then you need to go on Facebook and tweeter and hold a conversatation, for we discuss scripture TRUTH here.

so what is it going to be "Facebook and Tweeter", or the TRUTH in scriptures. your choice.... YIKES!.


PICJAG
101G The "Spiritual Saboteur"

 

[BreadOfLife]

look first born means nothing when it comes to sex between a man and a woman, i can care lees if it was a last born. the fact is that Joseph and Mary had sex after christ was born.

now Matthew 1:18 clearly defines this action of sex. "Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost."

if Joseph and Mary "NEVER" had sex, this would have never been in the scriptures. no need to say this.

so you can take your Rabbinic teaching and head right back out the door with them... (smile)... lol. the scriptures don't lie.

now as for definition,
"coming together"
G4905 συνέρχομαι sunerchomai (sïn-er'-cho-mai) v.
1. to convene, depart in company with, associate with.
2. (specially, maritally) cohabit.
[from G4862 and G2064]
KJV: accompany, assemble (with), come (together), come (company, go) with, resort
Root(s): G4862, G2064

definition #2. seals the deal, as well as Matthews 1:25.

now if you do not have any concrete evidence showing else wise, and you ponder your same old scriptures, and statements, then you need to go on Facebook and tweeter and hold a conversatation, for we discuss scripture TRUTH here.

so what is it going to be "Facebook and Tweeter", or the TRUTH in scriptures. your choice.... YIKES!.


PICJAG
101G The "Spiritual Saboteur"

Your ignorance never fails to astound me.
You know NOTHING about the marriage covenant - especially among 1st century Jews.

Joseph and Mary were ALREADY MARRIED officially when she became pregnant. Matt. 1:19 tells ust hat Joseph was planning to quietly "DIVORCE" her. They had NOT yet moved in together, as was the custom. THAT'S why Matt. 1:18 says thay had not yet come together - in cohabitation.

As for Matt. 1:25 - you have clearly LOST this argument because BOTH @Mungo and I have presented enough Scriptural evidence to bury you..

 

[101G]

Joseph and Mary were ALREADY MARRIED officially when she became pregnant. Matt. 1:19 tells ust hat Joseph was planning to quietly "DIVORCE" her. They had NOT yet moved in together, as was the custom. THAT'S why Matt. 1:18 says thay had not yet come together - in cohabitation.

BINGO, that where Matthews. 1:25 comes in at and supports Matthews 1:19... BINGO, that's for the confirmation.

I know that you would put your foot in your mouth sonner or later.... (smile).

PICJAG
101G The "Spiritual Saboteur"

 

[BreadOfLife]

BINGO, that where Matthews. 1:25 comes in at and supports Matthews 1:19... BINGO, that's for the confirmation.

I know that you would put your foot in your mouth sonner or later.... (smile).

PICJAG
101G The "Spiritual Saboteur"

I'll say this for you - you certainly ARE a Scriptural "saboteur" . . .

 

[101G]

I'll say this for you - you certainly ARE a Scriptural "saboteur" . . .

First thanks for the reply, second, well ... (smile)... that's better than being a blind ignoran dumb and greety dog, as the prophet states, Isaiah 56:10 "His watchmen are blind: they are all ignorant, they are all dumb dogs, they cannot bark; sleeping, lying down, loving to slumber."Isaiah 56:11 "Yea, they are greedy dogs which can never have enough, and they are shepherds that cannot understand: they all look to their own way, every one for his gain, from his quarter."Isaiah 56:12 "Come ye, say they, I will fetch wine, and we will fill ourselves with strong drink; and to morrow shall be as this day, and much more abundant."

(smile)....
Another successful sabotage operation.

PICJAG
101G The "Spiritual Saboteur"

 

[BreadOfLife]

First thanks for the reply, second, well ... (smile)... that's better than being a blind ignoran dumb and greety dog, as the prophet states, Isaiah 56:10 "His watchmen are blind: they are all ignorant, they are all dumb dogs, they cannot bark; sleeping, lying down, loving to slumber."Isaiah 56:11 "Yea, they are greedy dogs which can never have enough, and they are shepherds that cannot understand: they all look to their own way, every one for his gain, from his quarter."Isaiah 56:12 "Come ye, say they, I will fetch wine, and we will fill ourselves with strong drink; and to morrow shall be as this day, and much more abundant."

(smile)....
Another successful sabotage operation.

PICJAG
101G The "Spiritual Saboteur"

WOW.
That's like claiming to be a "political moron" . . .

 

[101G]

WOW.
That's like claiming to be a "political moron" . . .

What's wrong?`...... (smile).

PICJAG
101G The "Spiritual Saboteur"