Jesus is the answer. - But what's the question?

[MA2444]

The song has a rather infamous history.
Written and recorded originally by Depeche Mode. (1990)
Marilyn Manson recorded it as a cover. (2004)
Both of these were really a mockery of a relationship with Jesus.
Johnny Cash covered the song and it took on the positive vibe you heard. (2002)

/

Oh crap. Now my youtube feed is trying to get me to listen to Depeche Mode's version of that song. But I wouldn't click on it, lol. I'll take your word for it Brother!

 

[Aunty Jane]

"If I am lifted up, I will draw ALL PEOPLE unto myself (John 12:32)."

If you compare this verse with the rest of scripture, you will see that it doesn’t mean “all people” would be drawn to Christ as he clearly stated that there are “wheat and weeds” in this world as well as “sheep and goats”....the “weeds” and the “goats” do not have a good outcome, but are destroyed......so Jesus here is referring to all those people who hear his message of salvation and respond to it accordingly.

We cannot pluck verses out of context to make them say what we want to believe...Jesus never taught that all people would be accepted into his kingdom......only those “doing the will of his Father” would have that privilege (Matt 7:21-23)......otherwise the message that Jesus sent his disciples out to preach, would have been unnecessary. It was the message that either “drew” people to God, and he to them....or not. (Matt 24:14; John 6:44, 65)

 

[St. SteVen]

If you compare this verse with the rest of scripture, you will see that it doesn’t mean “all people” would be drawn to Christ as he clearly stated that there are “wheat and weeds” in this world as well as “sheep and goats”....the “weeds” and the “goats” do not have a good outcome, but are destroyed......so Jesus here is referring to all those people who hear his message of salvation and respond to it accordingly.

We cannot pluck verses out of context to make them say what we want to believe...Jesus never taught that all people would be accepted into his kingdom......only those “doing the will of his Father” would have that privilege (Matt 7:21-23)......otherwise the message that Jesus sent his disciples out to preach, would have been unnecessary. It was the message that either “drew” people to God, and he to them....or not. (Matt 24:14; John 6:44, 65)

There are many verses to consider. And yours as well. Here are a few. Notice the ALL in these.

Acts 3:21 NIV
Heaven must receive him until the time comes for God to restore everything, as he promised long ago through his holy prophets.

1 John 2:2 NIV
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

Romans 11:32
For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

Titus 2:11 ESV
For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people,

John 1:29 NIV
... The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said,
“Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

1 Timothy 4:10 NIV
That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God,
who is the Savior of all people, and especially of those who believe.

1 John 4:14 NIV
And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world.

1 Corinthians 15:22
For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.


/ cc: @Berserk

 

[Jack]

"If I am lifted up, I will draw ALL PEOPLE unto myself (John 12:32)."

But most will reject His offer. As have many here who profess to be 'Christian'!

Luke 13:23-24
23 Then one said to Him, "Lord, are there few who are saved?" And He said to them,
24 "Strive to enter through the narrow gate, for many, I say to you, will seek to enter and will not be able.

 

[Aunty Jane]

There are many verses to consider. And yours as well. Here are a few. Notice the ALL in these.

Does “all” really mean “all”…..or does it mean “all“ those who qualify by certain criteria?

Acts 3:21 NIV
Heaven must receive him until the time comes for God to restore everything, as he promised long ago through his holy prophets.

What is this a restoration of? I believe that what we lost in Eden is restored to humankind in Revelation….

Rev 21:2-5….
“And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, made ready as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a loud voice from the throne, saying, “Behold, the tabernacle of God is among men, and He will dwell among them, and they shall be His people, and God Himself will be among them, and He will wipe away every tear from their eyes; and there will no longer be any death; there will no longer be any mourning, or crying, or pain; the first things have passed away.”
And He who sits on the throne said, “Behold, I am making all things new.” And He said, “Write, for these words are faithful and true.” (NASB)
This is what God’s kingdom will do….it will eliminate all causes of suffering and pain.….but for whom?
Jesus said that we would be in for big trouble at the time of his return…a “great tribulation” was foretold, worse than anything mankind has ever experienced before….and he said that only those who “endure to the end, will be saved.“ (Matt 24:13, 21) What is it that we have to endure?
Is the door open to everyone? If so, then who is the doorkeeper and what is his job? (John 10:1-5)

1 John 2:2 NIV
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

It is true that Christ died for the whole human race, but not all will accept his sacrifice, failing to live by the example set by Jesus and his apostles.

There are only two laws that Jesus said applied to Christians…..to “love God with our whole heart, mind and soul….and to love our neighbor as ourselves.”
Only those who put God first in their lives, and give assistance to their brothers and their fellow man, as Jesus did, will qualify for life under the rulership of God’s kingdom.

Romans 11:32
For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

I looked in several translations and it says “may have mercy”…not “will have mercy on them all”.
In Vs 19-22 of that chapter in Romans, it says…
“You will say, then: “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” 20 That is true! For their lack of faith, they were broken off, but you are standing by faith. Do not be haughty, but be in fear. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you. 22 Consider, therefore, God’s kindness and severity. There is severity toward those who fell, but toward you there is God’s kindness, provided you remain in his kindness; otherwise, you too will be lopped off.”

All have to remain in God’s kindness, being obedient to him in all things, otherwise Paul said that the ‘wild olive branches’ (Gentiles) would be lopped off too.

Titus 2:11 ESV
For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people,

God does bring salvation to all people…..but not all will embrace the truth, so as to attain it. It is offered to all, but not all have what it takes to gain entry into the Kingdom. (Matt 7:13-14; 21-23

John 1:29 NIV
... The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said,
“Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

Again, he does “take away the sin of the world” for those who respond to Christ’s teachings and obey them.
Those who have no time for God and who treat his laws with contempt, can have no place in his kingdom. Citizenship has criteria, as it must.

1 Timothy 4:10 NIV
That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God,
who is the Savior of all people, and especially of those who believe.

Who are the ones who are “saved” but who are not “believers”? Could it be those whom Christ resurrects? Those who lived and died without ever knowing God or his Christ?
Death is the highest penalty for any crime committed under God’s Law, so those who have died have paid sins wages, and start life again with a clean slate. (Roman’s 6:7; 23) God does not hold ignorance against a person unless it is deliberate.

1 John 4:14 NIV
And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world.

1 Corinthians 15:22
For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.

Yes, all who come to Christ in sincerity will be saved. Salvation is open to all, no matter what mistakes they have made in the past….Jesus will judge people as they are when he comes in that capacity, because all will have been given ample opportunity to repent and turn their lives around. There is way more to being a “believer” than mere mental acknowledgement.

Adam showed us what happens when we disobey our rightful Sovereign. Jesus showed us how to do what Satan, Adam and his wife did not…..obedience is all God has ever required of his worshippers.…willing obedience, from the heart.

 

[St. SteVen]

Thanks for your thoughtful and detailed response.
Basically the evangelical view, but that is fine.
This bit below seems worthy to discuss.

St. SteVen said:
1 Timothy 4:10 NIV
That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God,
who is the Savior of all people, and especially of those who believe.

Who are the ones who are “saved” but who are not “believers”? Could it be those whom Christ resurrects? Those who lived and died without ever knowing God or his Christ?
Death is the highest penalty for any crime committed under God’s Law, so those who have died have paid sins wages, and start life again with a clean slate. (Roman’s 6:7; 23) God does not hold ignorance against a person unless it is deliberate.

The exceptions to the hard and fast "rules" about salvation are interesting to explore.
Indeed, who are these "all people" that the living God is the Savior of? They aren't believers. (yet?)
Seems we could say they need to be believers ultimately, to be saved. How does that work?
Christian Universalism (UR) to the rescue. - LOL

From the perspective of Ultimate Redemption (UR), there will be an age of reconciliation and restoration.
And ultimately a healing of the nations. The nations themselves will be judged. And leaders of government and churches.
Of course, each individual will face a review as well. The wood, hay and stubble will burn. Refining/purifying what is left.

/

 

[Berserk]

Here is just one of Paul's many universalist texts in which both "alls" are parallel and therefore universal:

"God has imprisoned ALL in disobedience, in order that He might be merciful to ALL (Romans 11:32)."

"imprisoned" implies a lack of freedom to choose otherwise and makes God responsible for giving us a disobedient nature that makes sin inevitable. So God also takes responsibility for the outcome--that we all ultimately come to Him on the basis of mercy and grace. But, you say, you assume that Paul believes in ultimate universal restoration after the postmortem judgment of the damned. And so He does:

"For from Him and through Him AND BACK TO HIM ARE ALL THINGS (11:36)."

Thus, a few verses later, Paul makes it clear that His purpose in showing mercy to ALL will be fulfilled in the final cosmic restoration.

 

[St. SteVen]

Here is just one of Paul's many universalist texts in which both "alls" are parallel and therefore universal:

"God has imprisoned ALL in disobedience, in order that He might be merciful to ALL (Romans 11:32)."

"imprisoned" implies a lack of freedom to choose otherwise and makes God responsible for giving us a disobedient nature that makes sin inevitable. So God also takes responsibility for the outcome--that we all ultimately come to Him on the basis of mercy and grace. But, you say, you assume that Paul believes in ultimate universal restoration after the postmortem judgment of the damned. And so He does:

"For from Him and through Him AND BACK TO HIM ARE ALL THINGS (11:36)."

Thus, a few verses later, Paul makes it clear that His purpose in showing mercy to ALL will be fulfilled in the final cosmic restoration.

That's good, thanks.
Here's my absolute favorite "all" scripture.

Romans 5:18-19 NIV
Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people,
so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.
19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners,
so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

/ cc: @Aunty Jane

 

[Aunty Jane]

Thanks for your thoughtful and detailed response.
Basically the evangelical view, but that is fine.

I’m not sure how it is possible not to take our entire view of God and his means of salvation directly from God’s word. There is a reason why it is important to have one source of instruction from the author so that unity can be attained among his true worshippers…..Jehovah is after all, “not a God of disorder, but of peace”. Is there anything more peace disrupting that arguing over doctrine? (1 Cor 1:10)

Here's my absolute favorite "all" scripture.

Romans 5:18-19 NIV
Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people,
so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.
19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners,
so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

/ cc: @Aunty Jane

So just unpacking that passage…..we see 1) that Adam is responsible for the sinful state of the human race, and we had no say in that….it is a fact of life in this world that humans have a propensity to lean towards sin. It’s something we have to fight in our nature if we want to please God. But he assures us of the assistance of his holy spirit in our struggles as Paul stated……“God is faithful, and he will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear, but along with the temptation he will also make the way out in order for you to be able to endure it.” (1 Cor 10:13) Do we have faith in that? We need to read about Job. The devil was allowed to take Job to his limit….which may well be way beyond our own.

What was the point of Job’s trials? Why is his extraordinary experience recorded in the Bible? What do we take from it that will help us in our own trials?

2) That God’s will is what will take place….with us or without us.

Now back to your other questions…..

This bit below seems worthy to discuss.

St. SteVen said:
1 Timothy 4:10 NIV
That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God,
who is the Savior of all people, and especially of those who believe.

The exceptions to the hard and fast "rules" about salvation are interesting to explore.
Indeed, who are these "all people" that the living God is the Savior of? They aren't believers. (yet?)

The whole purpose of evangelism is to find those who are not believers…yet.
Why are we told to preach? If all are saved, it is redundant.

Seems we could say they need to be believers ultimately, to be saved. How does that work?
Christian Universalism (UR) to the rescue. - LOL

Its only a rescue to those who want it to be true…as if we do not have enough in the scriptures to tell us that this is not possible. What was the point of the flood….Sodom and Gomorrah….the resisters in the wilderness…and others who bore the brunt of God’s anger? Was his anger justified? Of course! Jehovah has a perfect sense of justice which is administered without sentiment.

In a world ruled by the devil (with God’s permission, as he did with Job) there is a purpose to it all, and our Creator does not need our permission to act in whatever capacity he deems necessary. He is a dictator but a benevolent one, who never acts without due warning if we are tempted to cross a line.

We know how the enemy operates and if we just do as God tells us, we will not lose the salvation that he offers to “all”….it is conditional however, just as life itself was conditional in the beginning……obey and live…disobey and die. It wasn’t rocket science….and the rewards for obedience were well and truly worth it.
Has independence from God brought true freedom to mankind? Or have we just traded one master for another? Which one brought us into a beautiful world…and which one took us into a den of lions?

From the perspective of Ultimate Redemption (UR), there will be an age of reconciliation and restoration.
And ultimately a healing of the nations. The nations themselves will be judged. And leaders of government and churches.
Of course, each individual will face a review as well. The wood, hay and stubble will burn. Refining/purifying what is left.

No matter how you want to read the scriptures, one clear theme remains…..what God purposed in the beginning is what he will restore in the end (Isa 55:11)…..everlasting life in paradise on earth for mortal beings who were given God’s moral qualities and assigned as caretakers of this creation….but those who will enjoy that scenario will be those who, by their choices and conduct, and by the condition of their heart will qualify as citizens in the coming kingdom of God. We do not have the right to dictate our own terms.

God is about quality, not quantity….if we cannot do as he tells us, we are no use to him. It’s all he has ever asked of us…..our willing obedience.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Here is just one of Paul's many universalist texts in which both "alls" are parallel and therefore universal:

"God has imprisoned ALL in disobedience, in order that He might be merciful to ALL (Romans 11:32)."

The Mounce Interlinear renders that verse…
”For gar God theos has consigned synkleiō ·ho ·ho all pas to eis disobedience apeitheia so hina that he may show mercy to eleeō ·ho all pas.”

The Greek word rendered “consigned” means….
“to shut up together, enclose” (Strongs)

So what is this verse actually saying? That God has collectively put “all” mankind into this situation of having sin rule in our bodies and our world, for a good reason. It was the only way to demonstrate that independence from God and an unwillingness to accept his rightful Sovereignty over his creation is justified.
God has allowed us to collectively experience what ‘thinking we know better than him’, leads to.

We have those who now want to dictate their own terms of salvation because it suits them to have such a God….one who will accommodate their will, rather than carry out his own.

"imprisoned" implies a lack of freedom to choose otherwise and makes God responsible for giving us a disobedient nature that makes sin inevitable. So God also takes responsibility for the outcome--that we all ultimately come to Him on the basis of mercy and grace. But, you say, you assume that Paul believes in ultimate universal restoration after the postmortem judgment of the damned. And so He does:

"For from Him and through Him AND BACK TO HIM ARE ALL THINGS (11:36)."

Thus, a few verses later, Paul makes it clear that His purpose in showing mercy to ALL will be fulfilled in the final cosmic restoration.

This implies to me that you misunderstand the whole reason why we are subjected to this life…..

God is not responsible for our sinful state…the Bible clearly lays that at the feet of Adam. (Rom 5:12)
What God did after sin had entered into the world with its awful consequences, is to collectively subject all of us to those consequences to teach us all where disobedience leads. We have to understand that it isn’t just humans who are in this object lesson….the angels too are “sons of God” and it was one of their own who first rebelled and led the human race astray, thinking that he could “be like God” gaining their worship by deceptively stealing them from the Creator. This is not just about us….the picture is way bigger than us mere mortals….

God will restore all things…but it will be without those who cannot obey God willingly from their heart out of love…..those who want God to fit into their “box” will come to disappointment, because they have failed to discern the whole reason why God is allowing us to make our choices in a world influenced by the one who was given rulership over “all the kingdoms of the world”. (Luke 4:5-8) This is not a world of God’s making. We have choices as free willed beings as to who we will worship…..God teaches us to make our choices, fully informed. (John 17:3)

 

[St. SteVen]

St. SteVen said:
Thanks for your thoughtful and detailed response.
Basically the evangelical view, but that is fine.

I’m not sure how it is possible not to take our entire view of God and his means of salvation directly from God’s word. There is a reason why it is important to have one source of instruction from the author so that unity can be attained among his true worshippers…..Jehovah is after all, “not a God of disorder, but of peace”. Is there anything more peace disrupting that arguing over doctrine? (1 Cor 1:10)

So... you are claiming that my view is somehow unbiblical? Simply because it disagrees with your view, which you seem to claim is God's view? How convenient. (sigh) I did provided biblical support.


St. SteVen said:
Here's my absolute favorite "all" scripture.

Romans 5:18-19 NIV
Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people,
so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.
19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners,
so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

So just unpacking that passage…..we see 1) that Adam is responsible for the sinful state of the human race, and we had no say in that….it is a fact of life in this world that humans have a propensity to lean towards sin. It’s something we have to fight in our nature if we want to please God. But he assures us of the assistance of his holy spirit in our struggles as Paul stated……“God is faithful, and he will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear, but along with the temptation he will also make the way out in order for you to be able to endure it.” (1 Cor 10:13) Do we have faith in that? We need to read about Job. The devil was allowed to take Job to his limit….which may well be way beyond our own.

What was the point of Job’s trials? Why is his extraordinary experience recorded in the Bible? What do we take from it that will help us in our own trials?

2) That God’s will is what will take place….with us or without us.

LOL
You left before you were done "unpacking" the passage. Talking about Job instead?

There is a "just as" and a "so also" comparative in each verse. Meaning, in the same way.
In verse 18 both the trespass and the righteous act of one man RESULTED in both
condemnation and justification for all people. In verse 19 the disobedience of the one man
and the obedience of the one man made, or will make THE many both sinners AND righteous.

Romans 5:18-19 NIV
Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people,
so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.
19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners,
so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

God is about quality, not quantity….if we cannot do as he tells us, we are no use to him. It’s all he has ever asked of us…..our willing obedience.

If you had five children and one of them was an obedient little angel but the others didn't measure up,
would you incinerate the four and keep the one?

I don't think God the Father would that.

/

 

[Aunty Jane]

So... you are claiming that my view is somehow unbiblical? Simply because it disagrees with your view, which you seem to claim is God's view? How convenient. (sigh) I did provided biblical support.

Is that what I said? I believe that the Bible has one view, but not all will subscribe to it, as is plainly evident from these discussions. There is one truth and we have to seek it with an open heart and mind without being influenced by a mental disorder that leads humans to want to put their own spin on everything….it goes with being born with this nature we have. “My way or the highway”….

You seem to get defensive when your views are questioned…but we have to question everything because choices have to be made before the appointed judge passes sentence on all of us. He indicates that “few” are on the road to life but “many” are travelling the superhighway to death. (Matt 7:13-14) The “many” are going to receive a judgment that they are not prepared for. (Matt 7:21-23) Just calling Jesus our “Lord” doesn’t mean much if we are not living up to his teachings and example.

Here's my absolute favorite "all" scripture.

Romans 5:18-19 NIV
Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people,
so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.
19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners,
so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

LOL
You left before you were done "unpacking" the passage. Talking about Job instead?

The reason I talked about Job, was the relevance to my previous comment. We are all Job at this juncture.
What was the purpose of allowing him to undergo such a protracted and difficult assault when he didn’t even know that he was the object of a lesson for all of us?
We at least know who to blame for our misfortunes…..he was unaware of what was taking place behind the scenes...and yet his faith in his God never wavered. He figured if God was doing this to him, then he must have had a good reason….what faith he had!

There is a "just as" and a "so also" comparative in each verse. Meaning, in the same way.
In verse 18 both the trespass and the righteous act of one man RESULTED in both
condemnation and justification for all people. In verse 19 the disobedience of the one man
and the obedience of the one man made, or will make THE many both sinners AND righteous.

Romans 5:18-19 NIV
Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people,
so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.
19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners,
so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

Did you miss the “many“ in that last sentence? it doesn’t say “ALL” there.

Adam got us into this mess, and Jesus came to bail us out of it. He was the only one who could pay the price demanded by God’s law…..”an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth, a life for a life.“ What Adam lost was sinless human perfection….what Jesus gave in his obedience to his God, as redemption, was the equivalent of what Adam lost by his disobedience. This is why he is called “the last Adam”.
We have a God who abides by his own laws.

If you had five children and one of them was an obedient little angel but the others didn't measure up,
would you incinerate the four and keep the one?

Sorry but I have no such belief…..that whole scenario is an invention of the devil…..God has no desire or need to torture anyone in a fire eternally. Who could worship such a God? When the Israelites fell to sacrificing their children in the fire to the false god Molech, what was God’s response?

Jeremiah 7:31…
”They have built the high places of Toʹpheth, which is in the Valley of the Son of Hinʹnom, in order to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire, something that I had not commanded and that had never even come into my heart.’”
If he was angry at the Israelites for doing that, why would he do so to his own children.
His justice is immediate and permanent…..eternal death is the opposite of eternal life….God demands nothing more, so why would we?

I don't think God the Father would that.

Me either…..perhaps it’s beneficial to get a handle on what is the truth before you judge what God does and what he doesn’t do with his own creation. Do you doubt that he is just? Do you imagine that he is unjust by what he has done in the past? You seem to want him to fit your mold…..he never will…..we have to conform to his.…and there is no alternative. Like it or not, Jehovah is who is has always been….we cannot change him…but he can change us if he sees a willing heart.

 

[St. SteVen]

Is that what I said? I believe that the Bible has one view, but not all will subscribe to it...

That's the problem.
Anyone who disagrees with your opinion gets thrown under the bus.
There is no consensus in biblical interpretation across the board. (if you follow those idioms)

/

 

[St. SteVen]

Did you miss the “many“ in that last sentence? it doesn’t say “ALL” there.

It doesn't say "many" either.
It says THE many were made sinners, The same THE many will be made righteous.
Therefore "the many" = all.

Romans 5:18-19 NIV
Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people,
so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.
19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners,
so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

/

 

[St. SteVen]

St. SteVen said:
If you had five children and one of them was an obedient little angel but the others didn't measure up,
would you incinerate the four and keep the one?

Sorry but I have no such belief…..that whole scenario is an invention of the devil…..God has no desire or need to torture anyone in a fir eternally. Who could worship such a God? When the Israelites fell to sacrificing their children in the fire to the false god Molech, what was God’s response?

Well. here's what you wrote:

God is about quality, not quantity….if we cannot do as he tells us, we are no use to him. It’s all he has ever asked of us…..our willing obedience.

How is that any different?
"quality, not quantity" and "we are no use to him" ?????

And I didn't say torture, I said incinerate, as in annihilate.

/

 

[Aunty Jane]

That's the problem.
Anyone who disagrees with your opinion gets thrown under the bus.
There is no consensus across the board. (if you follow those idioms)

There is one truth….if I did not believe that I have it, I wouldn’t be here telling you about it…..do you have to believe me? No….you don’t have to…..but you might at least entertain some ideas that at present you find unappealing……why are they unappealing to you?

It’s not my job to throw anyone under the bus….they do that themselves without any help from me.
It is God who “draws” the right people to his one truth. (John 6:44, 65) We cannot know it unless he reveals it. If he doesn’t reveal it, what does that mean?

How many people believed Jesus? He had one truth to teach and all the people had a choice to accept him or reject him. We have that choice too…..

Jesus said that he would appoint a “faithful slave” at this time, who would “feed“ his masters’ entire household their “food at the proper time” (Matt 24:45)…..if we don’t identify that “slave”, and feed at his table what is served as a complete meal (it’s not a buffet where you can pick and choose what suits your taste) then you are not part of his flock…the Fine Shepherd is the one who leads his sheep out of their current imprisonment in satan’s world and his false region…and has them feed on spiritual food that nourishes them and brings them into harmony with their brothers and sisters….it does not come out of fear, but out of genuine love for all that Jehovah is.…what he has done in the past….what he is doing right now…and what that means for our eternal future. God’s spirit unites his people….it does not divide them.

“Sheep or goats” are all Jesus will find when the judgment is made…there are no fences sitters, because there is no fence.

 

[Wick Stick]

What question(s) does Jesus answer by BEING the answer?

Is Jesus a complete answer?
Or does this leave us with MORE questions?

Are the questions more important than the answers?

How would you answer these questions?

JESUS IS THE ANSWER is a billboard - a bit of marketing for churches over the last few decades.

The intentions might be good and sincere, but promoting Jesus as a panacea for whatever problems a person may have in life is... well, it's not entirely truthful. All our problems do not just evaporate on conversion (or baptism, if you're from that denomination).

A more honest slogan would be JESUS HAS THE ANSWERS. The church can (hopefully) give you those answers, but then it will be up to you to act out the principles you received in a way that will right-track your life.

And that still doesn't quite get to the core of it. The church's role isn't supposed-to-be primarily educational. The church's first purpose is community. Education is something that happens subordinate to that higher goal.

In order to live a good life, one needs to be part of a community where they aren't constantly sabotaged by the consequences of others' unrighteous actions. The church is meant to be that. (I wish it was better at that).

-Jarrod

 

[MA2444]

So what is this verse actually saying? That God has collectively put “all” mankind into this situation of having sin rule in our bodies and our world, for a good reason. It was the only way to demonstrate that independence from God and an unwillingness to accept his rightful Sovereignty over his creation is justified.
God has allowed us to collectively experience what ‘thinking we know better than him’, leads to.

I thought about that before. I decided that, next time...I'll take His word for it!

 

[Aunty Jane]

St. SteVen said:
If you had five children and one of them was an obedient little angel but the others didn't measure up,
would you incinerate the four and keep the one?

Well. here's what you wrote:

How is that any different?
"quality, not quantity" and "we are no use to him" ?????

And I didn't say torture, I said incinerate, as in annihilate.

If God has complete control over all his creation, then who among that creation has fingers to point at him? As if you have to modify God to suit your own sensibilities…..there is no such thing.

Surely God has the right of life and death….and surely to eliminate a person from existence is preferable to torturing them for all eternity in some kind of hell. God is looking for citizens to look after his earth as he would, therefore he is looking for the qualities that he himself gave us. He went to a lot of trouble to give his caretakers a beautiful start and will give obedient ones a wonderful future….but he has no place for disobedience…..that is why we are in this mess.


You are desperately trying to hang onto scripture that implies what you want to believe……your beliefs are not going to save you…..

 

[Wick Stick]

The song has a rather infamous history.
Written and recorded originally by Depeche Mode. (1990)
Marilyn Manson recorded it as a cover. (2004)
Both of these were really a mockery of a relationship with Jesus.
Johnny Cash covered the song and it took on the positive vibe you heard. (2002)

/

The original song is about seducing a girl. It's basically "come here baby, I'll be your saviour." *wink wink nudge nudge*