John Darby

[Davy]

More useless and unproductive propaganda. As if the pre-tribulation Rapture is not already embedded in Scripture. Now all we need is for someone to come along and bash 16th century Francisco Ribera because he happened to study Scripture and arrive at the truth.

When will Christians ever learn that ad hominem attacks do not equate to the truth? People have been unjustly maligning Darby, Scofied, Shafer, Walvoord, Ryrie, etc. because they hate the truth.

The pre-trib rapture theory is not embedded in Scripture. It is a theory of men only, and it only began being preached in the 1830's, as Edward Irving and John Darby in Great Britain were the first to preach it to a Christian congregation. That is a FACT of history.

 

[Randy Kluth]

pre-trib was taught in the early church because it is Bible truth!!

This is not biblical evidence for Pretrib Theology in early Christian history.

Again, outlying beliefs of even prestigious Christian leaders, if not adopted as a systematic theology in the history of the Church, do not prove Pretrib Theology held any prominence at all. For all I know Ephraem had inconsistent beliefs on the subject, and was not taken seriously by those who saw the holes in his system.

Reference to a figure dating back to the 4th century with a scarcity of material defining and explaining his eschatology is hardly grounds proving an historical eschatology that is Pretrib. It is one man's thoughts, whose main contribution was his spirituality and theological adeptness at countering some of the early heresies, such as docetism. He was the product of the early Nicaean controversies, defending orthodoxy. Eschatology, AFAIK, was not a major contribution on his part, and we are left guessing what he actually meant to establish as biblical truth.

It is the equivalent of trying to establish that fish fly because we've heard, in the past, that there are "flying fish."

 

[Timtofly]

Brother, outside of arguments from "type," what evidence do you have of a Pretrib Rapture?
1) John "raptured" to heaven--John was caught up to heaven to see his visions--typology.
2) Church of Philadelphia "kept from tribulation"--the historic church in Philadelphia was literally protected from a historical tribulation--typology.
3) Pray that you may escape--Jesus' disciples escaped to Pella in 66-70 AD-- typology.

The argument from imminency (he is coming soon) never was accepted as evidence of a Pretrib Rapture in the Church. It was *always* thought that our preparation for Christ's Coming should always be *now.* We prepare by continuing to be spiritual *now,* by continuing to be obedient *now.* It had nothing to do with expecting Christ could come "at any moment" before Antichrist is revealed. Please provide evidence of this?

Darby turned imminent expectation into Christ could come "at any moment," needing no prophecy to be fulfilled before that event. Darby turned the Reign of Antichrist into a horrendous "Great Tribulation" that demanded the Church pursue escape from. In reality, the Great Tribulation actually includes, in the words of Jesus, the entire Jewish Diaspora of the NT era! The Church has never needed to escape from that!

The "Reign of Antichrist" will be no different than any other horrendous time for the Church in history--no worse than the Roman Empire brutally torturing and murdering Christians--no worse than Hitler's holocaust. It's all bad. The Church was encouraged to endure persecution in the book of Revelation--not escape from it!

Darby's view was new in the Church, AFAIK. Please provide evidence for a Pretrib Rapture from the Bible that *explicitly teaches it.* You will not be able to do it, because the Bible explicitly teaches the opposite.

Show me one verse for a post trib rapture.

Paul does not say the antichrist will be revealed. That is changing the text of 2 Thessalonians 2. The lawless one is the false prophet. Satan is the deceiver. The only two mentioned in 2 Thessalonians 2.

There have always been antichrist, they come and go like popcorn. Looking for an Antichrist is chasing a rabbit down a hole to Satan's wonderland. Best not chase rabbits.

 

[Keraz]

Show me one verse for a post trib rapture.

It is foolishness to ask for something that simply is not there.
Nowhere does the Bible tell us the Church will go to live in heaven. Jesus explicitly said such a thing was impossible. John 3:13
Paul tells us the faithful Church will be transported to where Jesus will be at His Return. Confirmed by Matthew 24:30-31

Paul does not say the antichrist will be revealed. That is changing the text of 2 Thessalonians 2. The lawless one is the false prophet. Satan is the deceiver. The only two mentioned in 2 Thessalonians 2.

There have always been antichrist, they come and go like popcorn. Looking for an Antichrist is chasing a rabbit down a hole to Satan's wonderland. Best not chase rabbits.

The final Anti-Christ, a man; Daniel 7:24-25, is clearly prophesied and people will be forced to worship him. Revelation 13:1-18
The world will be quite a different place when he will be in power.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Show me one verse for a post trib rapture.

Matt 24.
29 “Immediately after the distress of those days

“‘the sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light;
the stars will fall from the sky,
and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.’

30 “Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory. 31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

The "distress of those days" is the "Great Tribulation" referred to and described in Luke 21, representing the NT Jewish Diaspora, which lasts throughout this entire age. The Rapture of the Church takes place when the Son of Man comes at the end of this age, when Israel's Great Tribulation ends.

Luke 21.20 “When you see Jerusalem being surrounded by armies, you will know that its desolation is near. 21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those in the city get out, and let those in the country not enter the city. 22 For this is the time of punishment in fulfillment of all that has been written. 23 How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! There will be great distress in the land and wrath against this people. 24 They will fall by the sword and will be taken as prisoners to all the nations. Jerusalem will be trampled on by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled."

 

[Randy Kluth]

It is foolishness to ask for something that simply is not there.

I don't know why you're invested in this argument about whether men will live in heaven? But I do agree with you on this matter. Indeed, how do you prove something doesn't exist? Good point. We would be looking all day today and tomorrow, as well. We should spend our time reading what is, in fact, there, right?

 

[GISMYS_7]

It is foolishness to ask for something that simply is not there.
Nowhere does the Bible tell us the Church will go to live in heaven. Jesus explicitly said such a thing was impossible. John 3:13
Paul tells us the faithful Church will be transported to where Jesus will be at His Return. Confirmed by Matthew 24:30-31

The final Anti-Christ, a man; Daniel 7:24-25, is clearly prophesied and people will be forced to worship him. Revelation 13:1-18
The world will be quite a different place when he will be in power.

You are free to ask God that you be left behind so that you can have fun in the years of God's great tribulation years of judgment and anti-christ rule!! But why????

 

[Keraz]

You are free to ask God that you be left behind so that you can have fun in the years of God's great tribulation years of judgment and anti-christ rule!! But why????

Why do I want to stay on earth?
Because I know that God has amazing Blessings for His people here. You fail to understand that we Christians do not have to join the One World Govt, that will be ruled by the Anti-Christ. We will live in peace and prosperity in all of the holy land. Isaiah 62:1-5

Going to have fun in heaven are you? The end times will come as a total surprise and will shock you and all who grip onto false teachings.

We should spend our time reading what is, in fact, there, right?

Yes, knowing what God has planned for our future, will be a big help to get thru all that is coming.

 

[GISMYS_7]

Why do I want to stay on earth?
Because I know that God has amazing Blessings for His people here. You fail to understand that we Christians do not have to join the One World Govt, that will be ruled by the Anti-Christ. We will live in peace and prosperity in all of the holy land. Isaiah 62:1-5

Going to have fun in heaven are you? The end times will come as a total surprise and will shock you and all who grip onto false teachings.

Yes, knowing what God has planned for our future, will be a big help to get thru all that is coming.

ROFL!! Dream on until anti-christ cuts your head off or you take his name,number and are doomed to hell!!!Your choice!

 

[Davy]

ROFL!! Dream on until anti-christ cuts your head off or you take his name,number and are doomed to hell!!!Your choice!

Matt 16:24-27
24 Then said Jesus unto His disciples, "If any man will come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow Me.
25 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for My sake shall find it.
26 For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?
27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of His Father with His angels; and then He shall reward every man according to his works.
KJV

The idea of physically escaping the coming tribulation is against what Lord Jesus taught. We are not to fear those who can kill our flesh, but fear God Who can destroy both body and soul in the lake of fire. Those in Christ are commanded by Apostle Paul to make a stand with the Gospel Armor on in the "evil day" (Eph.6), not seek to fly away to escape bodily persecution by Christ's enemies.

 

[teamventure]

... childish games, like Jesus and the apostles played ALL THE TIME. -- It's RECORDED IN SCRIPTURE as an EXAMPLE for us. -- Yeah, NOT.

Some children grow up, others remain.
Bobby Jo

Some children take out their childhood like agression on someone who didn't do anything to deserve it.
Kick rocks man.

 

[farouk]

Umm...I wonder what Darby is being blamed for now....by the way the discussion is going...

 

[GISMYS_7]

Matt 16:24-27
24 Then said Jesus unto His disciples, "If any man will come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow Me.
25 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for My sake shall find it.
26 For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?
27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of His Father with His angels; and then He shall reward every man according to his works.
KJV

The idea of physically escaping the coming tribulation is against what Lord Jesus taught. We are not to fear those who can kill our flesh, but fear God Who can destroy both body and soul in the lake of fire. Those in Christ are commanded by Apostle Paul to make a stand with the Gospel Armor on in the "evil day" (Eph.6), not seek to fly away to escape bodily persecution by Christ's enemies.

Any day now Jesus will shout, "come up here" =the rapture (catching up of believers) before the tribulation judgments and then after the great tribulation Jesus will return with the raptured believers and set up His 1000 year kingdom on earth then after the 1000 years the earth will be cleansed and renewed by fire and then the new Jerusalem will desend and God will make His home here with His family of born-again believers=sons of God and joint heirs with Jesus!!! PTL. FOR ALL ETERNITY!!

 

[GISMYS_7]

Luke 21:36 Jesus tells believers ==Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.
1 Thessalonians 5:9-10 King James Version (KJV)

9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.

 

[Bobby Jo]

...someone who didn't do anything to deserve it. ...

You play your childish games, and then cry because others won't play your games with you.

Go find an apron, and cry into it ...
Bobby Jo

 

[Bobby Jo]

Umm...I wonder what Darby is being blamed for now....by the way the discussion is going...

... or credited for. -- But some might do as instructed:

1 Cor. 14:29 Let two or three prophets speak, and let the others weigh what is said.​

Or maybe most prefer to have their HIRELING tell them what to OBEY, what to BELIEVE, and how to THINK.
Bobby Jo

 

[Davy]

Any day now Jesus will shout, "come up here" =the rapture (catching up of believers) before the tribulation judgments and then after the great tribulation Jesus will return with the raptured believers and set up His 1000 year kingdom on earth then after the 1000 years the earth will be cleansed and renewed by fire and then the new Jerusalem will desend and God will make His home here with His family of born-again believers=sons of God and joint heirs with Jesus!!! PTL. FOR ALL ETERNITY!!

No rapture prior to the great tribulation. Those you are listening to are telling you a lie that is not written in God's Word (except as a warning against those who teach such a lie, i.e., Ezekiel 13:17-20).

Our Lord Jesus is looking for Christian soldiers to make a spiritual stand for the very end of this world during the tribulation, not spiritual weaklings. That is why Apostle Paul gave the little make a stand with the Gospel Armor on speech in Ephesians 6. The "evil day" he was pointing to with withstanding all the fiery darts of Satan is about the tribulation at the end of this world. Paul even gave us specifics about it in 2 Thessalonians 2 letting us know not to expect our Lord Jesus' coming and gathering of the Church until that "man of sin" shows up playing God in a new temple in Jerusalem.

God's Word warns us that a fake supernatural Messiah is coming first, and to not fall away to him, but instead wait on our Lord Jesus Who will come at the end of the great tribulation like He said (Matthew 24; Mark 13; Luke 21; 2 Thessalonians 2). What the pre-trib rapture theory does is prepare its students to want to go to that fake supernatural Messiah that comes first, thus being deceived.

The only ones who will not be deceived during the coming tribulation are those who understand all this and are prepared by The Holy Spirit to make a stand in giving a Testimony for Jesus. Revelation 11 mentions two candlesticks along with God's two witnesses giving a Testimony against the beast in that future time. Per our Lord Jesus in Rev.1, the seven candlesticks represent the seven Churches. Only two Churches Jesus had no rebuke for, and they represent His very elect who will make a stand in that tribulation. It will be this event, God actually speaking to the whole... world through His servants by The Holy Spirit against the beast, that will begin the antichrist's downfall. The real battle during the tribulation is spiritual, not physical.

 

[Davy]

Luke 21:36 Jesus tells believers ==Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.
1 Thessalonians 5:9-10 King James Version (KJV)

9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.

Anyone can just pull out a verse here, and a verse there, and apply their own ideas to it, missing the actual flow of Scripture in a chapter. Pre-trib theorists do this all the time, as you did above.

There's more Scripture that goes with that Luke 21:36 verse which gives a different picture that what you gave:

Luke 21:25-28
25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
KJV

That "those things" Jesus was speaking of is about the events of the very last day of this world when the earth will shake once again, even the powers in heaven shaking. That is what Lord Jesus was pointing to about being worthy to escape. You got the idea by Paul in 1 Thess.5 right, because that is indeed about the day of God's wrath upon the wicked, but it is on the FINAL DAY of this world, not prior to the tribulation.

Matt 24:29-30
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
KJV

As one can easily see by keeping to the actual flow in the Luke 21 Scripture, and by looking at another witness in Matthew 24, we find the subject is not about escaping the tribulation at all, but instead about escaping the wrath of God on the final day after the tribulation, which is when Lord Jesus showed He comes to gather His Church.

And in 1 Thessalonians 5 about that "wrath" Paul said we, Christ's Church, are not appointed to, Paul was speaking of events about the final day of this world also with the "sudden destruction" that will come upon the deceived who will be saying, "Peace and safety":

1 Thess 5:1-4
5:1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
3 For when they shall say, "Peace and safety"; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
KJV

That "wrath" in 1 Thessalonians 5:9 we are not appointed to is about that event of the "sudden destruction" on the "day of the Lord", which is the FINAL DAY of this present world, and is when Jesus returns to gather His Church and dispense that wrath upon the wicked and deceived.

What is really crazy today with Pre-tribulationalists, some of them are so deceived they are trying to move the "day of the Lord" event backwards in time, before the great tribulation, just so it will align with their doctrine of men. In the Old Testament prophets and especially by Apostle Peter in 2 Peter 3:10, it is so... easy to understand the "day of the Lord" doesn't happen until the FINAL DAY of this present world. Anyone who seriously wants to listen to our Heavenly Father and His Son's Word would stop and think about those men who want to change the meaning of that "day of the Lord", and beware of them.

 

[GISMYS_7]

Jesus says==Luke 21:36 36Be always on the watch, and pray that you may be able to escape all that is about to happen, and that you may be able to stand before the Son of Man."
1 Thess 5:9: For God has not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ

 

[Davy]

Jesus says==Luke 21:36 36Be always on the watch, and pray that you may be able to escape all that is about to happen, and that you may be able to stand before the Son of Man."
1 Thess 5:9: For God has not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ

And once again, He and Apostle Paul were speaking of the day of His wrath on the FINAL DAY of this present world, the "day of the Lord"...

2 Peter 3:10-11
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
KJV