John Darby

[GISMYS_7]

Luke 21:36 36Be always on the watch, and pray that you may be able to escape all that is about to happen, and that you may be able to stand before the Son of Man."
1 Thessalonians 5:9
“For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,”

 

[Bobby Jo]

Right, we shouldn't knock the man, but reject his teachings, the false, incredible notion of people being whisked up to heaven before any trials or Judgment.

There's a distinction between "Paradise"/"Heaven", but this is about being "whisked up". The issue is when and where. And his "when" is clearly a False Doctrine.

Bobby Jo

 

[Davy]

We all know that John Darby came up with the pre-tribulation rapture.

But did you know that Darby also

Invented electricity,
Wrote the consitution,
Came up with the theory of relativity,
The law of gravity
And the recipe for maple syrup.

In fact, if we look further back in history you will see that John Darby probably discovered fire and invented the wheel too.

Darby did not invent the pre-trib rapture theory. He got it from the Edward Irving movement in the 1830s. And he was later put off by some of the manifestations going on in that Irvingite church.

 

[teamventure]

You ...

Maybe you've "played church" so long, that you play games wherever you go. -- Have you considered bothering people who are equally immature?

1 Cor. 13:11 When I was a child, I spoke like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child; when I became a man, I gave up childish ways.​

Bobby Jo

No, but maybe I'll consider posting to people who are intelligent enough to understand satire.

 

[farouk]

You know...despite our differences in what we believe might be coming...darn tooting I'm ready!
And I don't care how it goes down.

@Naomi25 Darby wrote a lot of good hymns...'Hark, ten thousand voice crying, Lamb of God to one accord' is one of his more well known ones...

 

[Bobby Jo]

... intelligent enough to understand ...

... childish games, like Jesus and the apostles played ALL THE TIME. -- It's RECORDED IN SCRIPTURE as an EXAMPLE for us. -- Yeah, NOT.

Some children grow up, others remain.
Bobby Jo

 

[Naomi25]

@Naomi25 Darby wrote a lot of good hymns...'Hark, ten thousand voice crying, Lamb of God to one accord' is one of his more well known ones...

I'm sure he did. It's probably a bit unfair the poor guy is only known for his contribution to Pretribulationism, rather than his work, or professed faith, as a whole. Even if people think his doctrinal stance on the Rapture was mistaken, that's only a single part of our overall theology. I'm sure he was a devoted Christian. We should think on that more...least we ourselves become defined by a single belief we hold.

 

[Enoch111]

He got it from the Edward Irving movement in the 1830s.

More useless and unproductive propaganda. As if the pre-tribulation Rapture is not already embedded in Scripture. Now all we need is for someone to come along and bash 16th century Francisco Ribera because he happened to study Scripture and arrive at the truth.

When will Christians ever learn that ad hominem attacks do not equate to the truth? People have been unjustly maligning Darby, Scofied, Shafer, Walvoord, Ryrie, etc. because they hate the truth.

 

[Randy Kluth]

There have been great men of God, and they usually fall short in some area. Darby was no different. He was on the bandwagon that began with Francisco Ribera, who wanted to establish the fact of Futurism. However, to do so Darby felt he had to get Christians expecting the Rapture could happen at any moment. That doesn't follow.

Our excitement is not in the waiting, nor in the expectation, but rather, in the hope that lies within us, the dwelling of Christ in our heart. The reality of His presence gives us certainty that a reward awaits us from heaven.

There are many prophecies that had to be fulfilled before Christ can come back for the Church. To say that Antichrist need not precede the return of Christ for his Church flies in the face of 2 Thes 2. "That day will not come unless the apostasy takes place 1st, and the man of sin be revealed. Then Christ will come and destroy him with the breath of his mouth." paraphrased

Darby was right to promote Futurism, as well as the future hope of national Israel. But he was not right to promote a Pretrib Rapture, which did not exist (in any significant way) in the Church prior to Darby. It is a modern day error in biblical eschatological teaching.

 

[GISMYS_7]

Pre-trib was taught in the early church because it is Bible truth!!

Ephraem of Nisibis (306-373 a.d.), which clearly teaches that believers will be raptured and taken to Heaven before The Tribulation.

Ephraem of Nisibis was the most important and prolific of the Syrian church fathers and a witness to early Christianity on the fringes of the Roman Empire in the late fourth century.

He was well-known for his poetry, exegetical and theological writings, and many of the hymns of the early Byzantine church. So popular were his works that in the fifth and sixth centuries he was adopted by several Christian communities as a spiritual leader and role model.

This sermon is deemed to be one of the most interesting apocalyptic texts of the early Middle Ages. The translation of the sermon includes the following segment:

“For all the saints and Elect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins.”

 

[Randy Kluth]

Pre-trib was taught in the early church because it is Bible truth!!

Ephraem of Nisibis (306-373 a.d.), which clearly teaches that believers will be raptured and taken to Heaven before The Tribulation.

Ephraem of Nisibis was the most important and prolific of the Syrian church fathers and a witness to early Christianity on the fringes of the Roman Empire in the late fourth century.

He was well-known for his poetry, exegetical and theological writings, and many of the hymns of the early Byzantine church. So popular were his works that in the fifth and sixth centuries he was adopted by several Christian communities as a spiritual leader and role model.

This sermon is deemed to be one of the most interesting apocalyptic texts of the early Middle Ages. The translation of the sermon includes the following segment:

“For all the saints and Elect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins.”

Yes, Ephraem is one of those outlying views buried in history, but was never significant in establishing any kind of mainstream eschatology in the Church. Imminent Expectation certainly never resulted in explicit pretribulational teaching in history. If so, don't just point out an aberration. My point is that the eschatology did not develop and persist in Church history.

One can find all kinds of aberrational teachings in the history of Christianity. Pretrib Teaching certainly may have existed at various times and places. But the point is, it was never established as a credible theology for the Church--not until John Darby and his Dispensationalism. You *cannot* prove this point false!

 

[Bobby Jo]

... People have been unjustly maligning Darby, Scofied, Shafer, Walvoord, Ryrie, etc. because they hate the truth.

People malign others who are teaching FALSE DOCTRINES. -- Specifically, Walvoord cited the BEST Scholars for their views, then threw those observations out the WINDOW, and chose church lore over Scriptural TRUTH.

So is Walvoord using DRUGS? -- No, he's simply WRONG, as men are prone to be on some subjects, as is @Enoch111 on his subjects.
Bobby Jo

 

[farouk]

Here's another great hymn by J. N. Darby:

1 AND is it so? we shall be like Thy Son!
Is this the grace which He for us has won?
Father of glory, thought beyond all thought,
In glory, to His own blest likeness brought.

2 O Jesus Lord, who loved us like to Thee?
Fruit of Thy work, with Thee, too, there to see
Thy glory, Lord, while endless ages roll,
Thy saints the prize and travail of Thy soul.

3 Yet it must be, Thy love had not its rest
Were Thy redeemed not with Thee fully blest;
That love that gives not as the world, but shares
All it possesses with its loved co-heirs.

4 Nor we alone, Thy loved ones all, complete
In glory round Thee there with joy shall meet,
All like Thee, for Thy glory like Thee, Lord,
Object supreme of all, by all adored.

 

[GISMYS_7]

Pre-trib was taught in the early church because it is Bible truth!!

Ephraem of Nisibis (306-373 a.d.), which clearly teaches that believers will be raptured and taken to Heaven before The Tribulation.

Ephraem of Nisibis was the most important and prolific of the Syrian church fathers and a witness to early Christianity on the fringes of the Roman Empire in the late fourth century.

He was well-known for his poetry, exegetical and theological writings, and many of the hymns of the early Byzantine church. So popular were his works that in the fifth and sixth centuries he was adopted by several Christian communities as a spiritual leader and role model.

This sermon is deemed to be one of the most interesting apocalyptic texts of the early Middle Ages. The translation of the sermon includes the following segment:

“For all the saints and Elect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins.”

Early Popes killed the Bible teaching truth of the rapture!

 

[Enoch111]

...and chose church lore over Scriptural TRUTH.

If you are going to make this accusation then please provide *chapter and verse*.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Early Popes killed the Bible teaching truth of the rapture!

As I said, there was *no* established Pretrib theology before John N. Darby--none! So no, the popes did not kill any Pretrib Rapture teaching. This seems to be a completely unjustified claim and slander of the popes. I suppose I could be wrong, but it's your claim. Please provide quotes to prove this, or any historical info in this regard?

 

[Randy Kluth]

If you are going to make this accusation then please provide *chapter and verse*.

Brother, outside of arguments from "type," what evidence do you have of a Pretrib Rapture?
1) John "raptured" to heaven--John was caught up to heaven to see his visions--typology.
2) Church of Philadelphia "kept from tribulation"--the historic church in Philadelphia was literally protected from a historical tribulation--typology.
3) Pray that you may escape--Jesus' disciples escaped to Pella in 66-70 AD-- typology.

The argument from imminency (he is coming soon) never was accepted as evidence of a Pretrib Rapture in the Church. It was *always* thought that our preparation for Christ's Coming should always be *now.* We prepare by continuing to be spiritual *now,* by continuing to be obedient *now.* It had nothing to do with expecting Christ could come "at any moment" before Antichrist is revealed. Please provide evidence of this?

Darby turned imminent expectation into Christ could come "at any moment," needing no prophecy to be fulfilled before that event. Darby turned the Reign of Antichrist into a horrendous "Great Tribulation" that demanded the Church pursue escape from. In reality, the Great Tribulation actually includes, in the words of Jesus, the entire Jewish Diaspora of the NT era! The Church has never needed to escape from that!

The "Reign of Antichrist" will be no different than any other horrendous time for the Church in history--no worse than the Roman Empire brutally torturing and murdering Christians--no worse than Hitler's holocaust. It's all bad. The Church was encouraged to endure persecution in the book of Revelation--not escape from it!

Darby's view was new in the Church, AFAIK. Please provide evidence for a Pretrib Rapture from the Bible that *explicitly teaches it.* You will not be able to do it, because the Bible explicitly teaches the opposite.

 

[Bobby Jo]

If you are going to make this accusation then please provide *chapter and verse*.

1 Thess. 4:15 For this we declare to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, shall not precede those who have fallen asleep.​

So if your Tribulation-Rapture doctrine is correct, then you have to FIRST RAISE ALL THE DEAD including those IN THE OCEANS:

Rev. 20: 7 And when the thousand years are ended ...

Rev. 20:12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Also another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, by what they had done. 13 And the sea gave up the dead in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead in them, and all were judged by what they had done.
Also see Rev. 20:5 below:​

Secondly, if the church is "raptured" during the Tribulation, -- where do they go?

• Do they all DIE and stay in Heaven? And if so, when GOD judges the wicked, who is left on earth?!?
• Do they Return with Jesus? And if so, then why aren't they cited:

Rev. 20:4 ... who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life, and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.​

• And if the "rapture" is during the Tribulation, -- at the end of the Millennial Kingdom when Jesus ascends to the New Jerusalem, will the saints who are alive and remain be relegated to a tired old earth until they all succumb to death/starvation/deprivation?

You have a LOT of screwy doctrines drilled into your head, and I hope you plug a few of the holes.
Bobby Jo

 

[GISMYS_7]

As I said, there was *no* established Pretrib theology before John N. Darby--none! So no, the popes did not kill any Pretrib Rapture teaching. This seems to be a completely unjustified claim and slander of the popes. I suppose I could be wrong, but it's your claim. Please provide quotes to prove this, or any historical info in this regard?

pre-trib was taught in the early church because it is Bible truth!!

Ephraem of Nisibis (306-373 a.d.), which clearly teaches that believers will be raptured and taken to Heaven before The Tribulation.

Ephraem of Nisibis was the most important and prolific of the Syrian church fathers and a witness to early Christianity on the fringes of the Roman Empire in the late fourth century.

He was well-known for his poetry, exegetical and theological writings, and many of the hymns of the early Byzantine church. So popular were his works that in the fifth and sixth centuries he was adopted by several Christian communities as a spiritual leader and role model.

This sermon is deemed to be one of the most interesting apocalyptic texts of the early Middle Ages. The translation of the sermon includes the following segment:

“For all the saints and Elect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins.”

 

[Bobby Jo]

pre-trib was taught in the early church because it is ...

... LEVERAGE. -- You'd better show up to the Wednesday night service, otherwise Jesus could come and YOU'LL be LEFT BEHIND. And be sure to bring your purse/billfold for the collection plate!


There seems NO END to the "barnyard" being shoveled by the purveyors of dishonesty!
Bobby Jo